A really really REALLY DAMN WEIRD idea

So..........


I can't find a way to word this delicately, but I'll try my best.

The basic idea is that Gunslinger Girl is supposed to have girls as cyborgs, so canonically speaking, boys can't exist. Workarounds include using boys as side characters, as characters from a different agency, or simply not challenging the issue.

What I propose is a fourth, possibly insane, method of working around it.

I propose that you dress up a boy as a girl and work from that as a basis, with the basic assumption that, despite a physically male gender, the cyborg is conditioned/trained to be female.



...should I go and get my Riot Shield so I don't get stoned to death?

How the frakk does that........

I... I don't know. I SAID it was weird.

That being said, it's possible one of the more experienced authors (Kisk, Prof. Voodoo, etc.) could succeed?

Its not the author. Dont get me wrong, this is a series with little girls and high caliber rifles, but really.......d'fugg

Caterina: Did you hear that Rico? El Conservatore thinks it be cool to have boys think they are girls....
Rico: Um Cat?
Caterina: Yeah?
Rico: (drops 'her' drawers)
Caterina: !!!! Y-you were at our sleep over party last week and an- an- and that back massage you gave me an....GET OUT!!
Rico: Would it help to say you're cute?
Caterina: OUT!!
Rico: (walking down the hall, thinking out loud) I dunno, until recently I figured the way I'm built IS how a girl looks. That's what those stupid conditions drugs keep making me think....

simply played...Jean, simply played....

El Conservatore wrote:The basic idea is that Gunslinger Girl is supposed to have girls as cyborgs, so canonically speaking, boys can't exist.

This 'basic idea' severely limits creative horizons.

El Conservatore wrote:I propose that you dress up a boy as a girl and work from that as a basis, with the basic assumption that, despite a physically male gender, the cyborg is conditioned/trained to be female.

Gender-confused kid + mind-altering drugs = bad combo. Poor sod will go postal in less than a year. Mark my words.

Although, that would be really interesting to read. Kid goes crazy slowly as story progresses....




......now I feel like a sadist.

Well, it could be a good idea in something like Envangelion, where mental trauma actually makes them work better. Anywhere else...

boy thinks they're girl....OMG, is this the end!!!

El Conservatore wrote:Although, that would be really interesting to read. Kid goes crazy slowly as story progresses....




......now I feel like a sadist.

Give in to your sadism; write it up as a psychological horror title in stream-of-consciousness narrative style. You've got me interested, too.

He's just a sweet transvestite...

...from the trans-social...

Welfare, agencyyyy...he he!

tremec6speed wrote:Caterina: Did you hear that Rico? El Conservatore thinks it be cool to have boys think they are girls....
Rico: Um Cat?
Caterina: Yeah?
Rico: (drops 'her' drawers)
Caterina: !!!! Y-you were at our sleep over party last week and an- an- and that back massage you gave me an....GET OUT!!
Rico: Would it help to say you're cute?
Caterina: OUT!!
Rico: (walking down the hall, thinking out loud) I dunno, until recently I figured the way I'm built IS how a girl looks. That's what those stupid conditions drugs keep making me think....

I think the idea has some potential... though it would make me worry about the guys in charge. Do they treat these children as their little playthings, seeing how far thay can push the envolope just for shits'n'giggles? Some mad scientist? I dunno.

Mr. Antonic wrote:I think the idea has some potential... though it would make me worry about the guys in charge. Do they treat these children as their little playthings, seeing how far thay can push the envolope just for shits'n'giggles? Some mad scientist? I dunno.

It has to be the case. If they were in their right mind, and decent human beings, they would raise the boys as boys.

That bespectacled doctor with the long hair. Gilliani. Always did peg him for a deviant. If anyone's messing with the kids, it's him.

Nachtsider wrote:

Mr. Antonic wrote:I think the idea has some potential... though it would make me worry about the guys in charge. Do they treat these children as their little playthings, seeing how far thay can push the envolope just for shits'n'giggles? Some mad scientist? I dunno.

It has to be the case. If they were in their right mind, and decent human beings, they would raise the boys as boys.

That bespectacled doctor with the long hair. Gilliani. Always did peg him for a deviant. If anyone's messing with the kids, it's him.

He does have that look about him.

Although, current prejudices against trans-gender people WOULD provide a highly convenient backstory. Run it as "beat up and nearly killed by haters before SWA reluctantly rescued him at the behest of a new handler who has a soft spot for such stories". Could work. You could even work in that the gender identity thing had to be maintained or else the conditioning would go nutso and make the cyborg lose all sense of identity within two weeks or something.

NACHT wrote:

Give in to your sadism; write it up as a psychological horror title in
stream-of-consciousness narrative style. You've got me interested, too
That bespectacled doctor with the long hair. Gilliani. Always did peg him for a deviant. If anyone's messing with the kids, it's him.

You've got a way with words man, I dig it!
*
Trans-social welfare agency?
Cool Alfisti!

*
*
damn I luv this club....

It seems like a lot of trouble to go through. If they want a girl, wouldn’t it be easier just to use a real one.

Danjo3 wrote:It seems like a lot of trouble to go through. If they want a girl, wouldn’t it be easier just to use a real one.

True, but half the techies at the SWA strike me as bat-shit-insane at best. I mean, one of them has hot twinsfor assistants, what the hell did he have to go through to get them?!

Also, you could write it off as an experiment. They wanted see what would happen since they haven't ectually done it yet. These guys don't exactly seem like they have strong morals.

Well, after all these years the fanfic arena is running pretty low on ideas, so why not? I could do it with my own OC’s. It’d be pretty hilarious to have Maria dressing Paolo up as a little girl.

Paolo: This is humiliating!

Maria: Stop your bitching, you’re absolutely adorable.

Stefano: Damn Paolo, you look good enough to…

Paolo: DON”T SAY IT!

Everyone who has posted in this thread:
I salute you.
hup, hup.....

tremec6speed wrote:Everyone who has posted in this thread:
I salute you.
hup, hup.....

And one for you Tremec *snaps off a slute*

Danjo3 wrote:It seems like a lot of trouble to go through. If they want a girl, wouldn’t it be easier just to use a real one.

The usual reasoning for humans doing stuff which doesn't make sense: because we can.

I still say its more plausible for the kid to actually be transexual and victim of a hate crime.

Alfisti wrote:

Danjo3 wrote:It seems like a lot of trouble to go through. If they want a girl, wouldn’t it be easier just to use a real one.

The usual reasoning for humans doing stuff which doesn't make sense: because we can.

Patton Oswalt: "Hey we just made cancer contagious and airborne. You're welcome! Science...we're all about 'coulda', not 'shoulda'."

Mr. Antonic wrote:True, but half the techies at the SWA strike me as bat-shit-insane at best. I mean, one of them has hot twinsfor assistants, what the hell did he have to go through to get them?!

I'm still not convinced that the twins weren't figments of that guy's imagination.

Nachtsider wrote:

Mr. Antonic wrote:True, but half the techies at the SWA strike me as bat-shit-insane at best. I mean, one of them has hot twinsfor assistants, what the hell did he have to go through to get them?!

I'm still not convinced that the twins weren't figments of that guy's imagination.

S he didn't put in a heap of effort to get good lookin' twins as assistants, he just imagined them. Oh, that's so much better, he is most definately off his nut.

So I went and drew up a concept.

Keep in mind, this is almost entirely trace-work. All I did was add color and change the hair a tad.

Huh.

That's intriguing.

Actually, all joking aside......
What Alfisti wrote is a scary thought to be sure mostly because it is so true.
"The usual reasoning for humans doing stuff which doesn't make sense: because we can."
The following actual experiments would probably not happen in the Social Welfare Agency's isolated grounds,
but I offer it to give some idea of the nefarious goings on in the bowels of the darkest, lowest levels of the SWA experimental chambers.
The Obedience Experiment (this one comes to mind because of the idea behind GSG where innocent children are being made to murder repeatedly)
Imagine that you've volunteered for an experiment, but when you show up at the lab you discover the researcher wants you to murder an innocent person. You protest, but the researcher firmly states, "The experiment requires that you do it." Would you acquiesce and kill the person?
When asked what they would do in such a situation, almost everyone replies that of course they would refuse to commit murder. But Stanley Milgram's famous obedience experiment, conducted at Yale University in the early 1960s, revealed that this optimistic belief is wrong. If the request is presented in the right way, almost all of us quite obediently become killers.
Milgram told subjects they were participating in an experiment to determine the effect of punishment on learning. One volunteer (who was, in reality, an actor in cahoots with Milgram) would attempt to memorize a series of word pairs. The other volunteer (the real subject) would read out the word pairs and give the learner an electric shock every time he got an answer wrong. The shocks would increase in intensity by fifteen volts with each wrong answer.
The experiment began. The learner started getting some wrong answers, and pretty soon the shocks had reached 120 volts. At this point the learner started crying out, "Hey, this really hurts." At 150 volts the learner screamed in pain and demanded to be let out. Confused, the volunteers turned around and asked the researcher what they should do. He always calmly replied, "The experiment requires that you continue."
Milgram had no interest in the effect of punishment on learning. What he really wanted to see was how long people would keep pressing the shock button before they refused to participate any further. Would they remain obedient to the authority of the researcher up to the point of killing someone?
To Milgram's surprise, even though volunteers could plainly hear the agonized cries of the learner echoing through the walls of the lab from the neighboring room, two-thirds of them continued to press the shock button all the way up to the end of scale, 450 volts, by which time the learner had fallen into an eerie silence, apparently dead. Milgram's subjects sweated and shook, and some laughed hysterically, but they kept pressing the button. Even more disturbingly, when volunteers could neither see nor hear feedback from the learner, compliance with the order to give ever greater shocks was almost 100%.
Milgram later commented, "I would say, on the basis of having observed a thousand people in the experiment and having my own intuition shaped and informed by these experiments, that if a system of death camps were set up in the United States of the sort we had seen in Nazi Germany, one would be able to find sufficient personnel for those camps in any medium-sized American town."
another picture this also going on without most aganets being aware but dim rumors abound.....
The Isolated Head of a Dog
Ever since the carnage of the French Revolution, when the guillotine sent thousands of severed heads tumbling into baskets, scientists had wondered whether it would be possible to keep a head alive apart from its body, but it wasn't until the late 1920s that someone managed to pull off this feat.
Soviet physician Sergei Brukhonenko developed a primitive heart-lung machine he called an "autojector," and with this device he succeeded in keeping the severed head of a dog alive. He displayed one of his living dog heads in 1928 before an international audience of scientists at the Third Congress of Physiologists of the USSR. To prove that the head lying on the table really was alive, he showed that it reacted to stimuli. Brukhonenko banged a hammer on the table, and the head flinched. He shone light in its eyes, and the eyes blinked. He even fed the head a piece of cheese, which promptly popped out the esophageal tube on the other end.
Brukhonenko's severed dog head became the talk of Europe and inspired the playwright George Bernard Shaw to muse, "I am even tempted to have my own head cut off so that I can continue to dictate plays and books without being bothered by illness, without having to dress and undress, without having to eat, without having anything else to do other than to produce masterpieces of dramatic art and literature."
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_transplant
So while taking boys and making think they are girls or vice versa, is indeed a 'really, really, REALLY DAMN WEIRD idea' (I'm not knocking it, it really is weird, I'm not trying to up the ante or down play the weirdness of it in anyway shape or form it's just that this came to mind and I thought I'd humbly offer it is all) can you imaging the poor cyborg whose elevator had a glitch and took her to a level that simply was not supposed to exist?
Wandering around confused in the hallways my cyborg Helen
(for example)
sees a lit room further down and upon entering encounters a child with no body simply tubes attached to the head. The poor creature spots her and tries to speak, but with no throat, words are uttered in silent desperation.
The terrified cyborg is finally able to read the lips saying: 'kill me please'. No weapon, hands trembling, she reaches out and pulls a handful of tubes with the desired effect. Eyes close in relief.
As she exists with her heart racing back into the hallway and towards the exit, the child sees another room closed yet she is able to make out sounds somewhat human, clearly in pain! Panic finally takes hold and the diminutive agent runs into the elevator frantically hitting buttons mentally pleading it will take her up and out of that secret level containing the chamber of horrors.
Days later she finally blurts out everything she saw to the other girls.
What I wonder would happen then?
The girls were starting to hear of the arguments between agents and the technical staff for changing the gender of the cyborgs, but what would be their reaction if they were to learn it had in fact gone way beyond that?

Okay, one: Those exeriments are giving the human side of me shivers and making the scientific side most intrugued.

Two: How everyone would react in such a situation is an interesting question. I figure most of the canon girls would look to their handlers, and al the handlers seem to be the sort of guys who would try and put a stop to that sort of stuff. My own OCs: Victoria would shrug it off, Andromeda would be out for blood, Linda would work with Vincent to try and stop it with as much red tape and that sort of shite as possible, the CSTG would be hypocrits if they tried to put a stop to it, and Barry and Mercedes, them I have no idea. Probably have a bit of a mental breakdown simply because they didn't find it first and then talk to the Director and so on and so forth until they thelseves are put down or the 'laboratory' is destroyed. Though those actions for my OCs are likely teh same as the guys who said they wouldn't kill the person. Except for Victoria, who goes by "If it makes the murder machines more powerful, it should stay."

Awinnell wrote:been done before

"47ness"... why am I not suprised?

Experiments: Problematically, the SWA wouldn't make any money from those ventures. Interestingly enough though, gender reassignment/genetalia repair WOULD be useful in a world where bombs go off daily, so creating an experimental trans-cyborg would actually be logical.

@Alfisti: You know this person/those people? Why aren't you surprised in any way?

El Conservatore wrote:@Alfisti: You know this person/those people? Why aren't you surprised in any way?

47ness is a member of this forum and has done a number of excellent GSG-related artwork as well as a fantastic comic titled Sally Sprocket and Piston Pete on deviantART.

El Conservatore wrote:So..........


I can't find a way to word this delicately, but I'll try my best.

The basic idea is that Gunslinger Girl is supposed to have girls as cyborgs, so canonically speaking, boys can't exist. Workarounds include using boys as side characters, as characters from a different agency, or simply not challenging the issue.

What I propose is a fourth, possibly insane, method of working around it.

I propose that you dress up a boy as a girl and work from that as a basis, with the basic assumption that, despite a physically male gender, the cyborg is conditioned/trained to be female.



...should I go and get my Riot Shield so I don't get stoned to death?

Just because there are no boys in canon does not mean that they exist. This applies to many things said here in discussion later to be put true by Mr. Aida himself.

Then there are boys in factionfiction, Alpha being the Number Brat here. Then there are Danjo's Girl/Boys... are they a mess to begin with!

The basic Premise of GunSlinger Girl is the use of children in this internal war Italy has been having. Padania and the mob has used boys before, in canon. One pictured running away with a gun and then there's Pino - that brat himselff.

Nachtsider wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:The basic idea is that Gunslinger Girl is supposed to have girls as cyborgs, so canonically speaking, boys can't exist.

This 'basic idea' severely limits creative horizons.

El Conservatore wrote:I propose that you dress up a boy as a girl and work from that as a basis, with the basic assumption that, despite a physically male gender, the cyborg is conditioned/trained to be female.

Gender-confused kid + mind-altering drugs = bad combo. Poor sod will go postal in less than a year. Mark my words.

I agree on both counts.

Alfisti wrote:He's just a sweet transvestite...

...from the trans-social...

Welfare, agencyyyy...he he!

Rocky Horrorr FTW!!!

El Conservatore wrote:Experiments: Problematically, the SWA wouldn't make any money from those ventures. Interestingly enough though, gender reassignment/genetalia repair WOULD be useful in a world where bombs go off daily, so creating an experimental trans-cyborg would actually be logical.

@Alfisti: You know this person/those people? Why aren't you surprised in any way?

It's basically 47ness' fault (well, along with Usagisama, also of deviantART) that I'm here... as it was on their reccomendation that I picked up GSG in the first case and... for that matter, watched past the first two episodes to a point where I actualy started to enjoy the series.

Also: agreed that the problem with this particular story is that the SWA has little to gain in creating a transgender cyborg... though that said: I believe the transgender market is a growing one, so maybe the SWA decided it wanted to get in on the ground floor. Who knows, some day everyone may be flying to Italy rather than Brazil

Thinking it over, me thinks I hijacked the thread, sorry guys wasn't my intention I wrote it late at night and didn't think it through, shan't happen again.

Well, it's still spawned "Well they'd probably do an experiment on gender reassignment for some justification but it's still gender reassignment", so:

1. PROPOSAL: An experiment to test the limits of conditioning in terms of personal identity.

2. PROCESS: Obtain damaged male subject and convert to female gender.

---

Conflicts would arise (according to my friend who is active in LGBT Rights) when the cyborg acted "out of gender" and overhears the handlers/scientists discuss reconditioning. This is, of course, terrifying, so plot happens.

---

Thoughts?

First thought: an experiment like this would only be performed by researchers who intended it as a first step towards something even more radical, such as total personality overwriting.

Second thought: I'd love to explore this, but to do it realistically would require more knowledge of the human psyche than I posess.

Third thought: the people in charge of the SWA's conditioning procedures are rat bastards.

Regarding Thought One: Isn't conditioning at the current stage BASICALLY the foundation for what you're talking about? The applications for, say, rape victims or PTSD affected soldiers would be ENORMOUS. You can't give a kid PTSD to experiment on him/her, but you CAN fuck with their gender to give them similar levels of mental chaos. Apply conditioning, see what happens.

El Conservatore wrote:Regarding Thought One: Isn't conditioning at the current stage BASICALLY the foundation for what you're talking about? The applications for, say, rape victims or PTSD affected soldiers would be ENORMOUS. You can't give a kid PTSD to experiment on him/her, but you CAN fuck with their gender to give them similar levels of mental chaos. Apply conditioning, see what happens.

Absolutely. While the girls seem to have retained their pre-conversion personalities, we don't know that for sure, and the 're-booted' Henrietta certainly shows what a massive dose of conditioning can do to a troubled young mind.

BTW: You guys realize you just turned the craziness of a late night and sleep deprivation into a legitimate thing, right? This is ridiculously awesome.

El Conservatore wrote:BTW: You guys realize you just turned the craziness of a late night and sleep deprivation into a legitimate thing, right? This is ridiculously awesome.

Which only really proves that everyone around here is just as mad as you are.

not me......

Alfisti wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:BTW: You guys realize you just turned the craziness of a late night and sleep deprivation into a legitimate thing, right? This is ridiculously awesome.

Which only really proves that everyone around here is just as mad as you are.

I think ti's best to look at the madness this way. Craziness is contagious, and the more people that are here, the crazier it gets. I can't wait for this site to reach Jack Nickolson proportions of insanity

Alfisti wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:BTW: You guys realize you just turned the craziness of a late night and sleep deprivation into a legitimate thing, right? This is ridiculously awesome.

Which only really proves that everyone around here is just as mad as you are.

Perhaps, but are not all great ideas the intersection of Madness and Awesomeness?


@Mr. Antonic: Probably also true, but not in the sense that madness is conveyed. Rather, that non-mad individuals would be forced to operate within the scope of the mad individuals to preserve their own sanity, leading to compartmentalized operating systems.

In other words, you have to partition your brain-drive in order to not go mad yourself.

El Conservatore wrote:Well, it's still spawned "Well they'd probably do an experiment on gender reassignment for some justification but it's still gender reassignment", so:

1. PROPOSAL: An experiment to test the limits of conditioning in terms of personal identity.

2. PROCESS: Obtain damaged male subject and convert to female gender.

---

Conflicts would arise (according to my friend who is active in LGBT Rights) when the cyborg acted "out of gender" and overhears the handlers/scientists discuss reconditioning. This is, of course, terrifying, so plot happens.

---

Thoughts?

On those cases where a circumcision has gone wrong and a little boy has been made into a girl, in the end, toward tween and teen years, things go haywire and she reverts back into a boy mentally. in fact, through its life, it does things that only a boy would. This... on top of the fact that the child is getting therapy, hypnosis, estrogen therapy and god knows what not.

This is because a boy's brain is built different from a girl's brain. This physical difference in the hardware construct of the ind can not be overriden, no matter how much it is tricked into being otherwise.