THE CYBORGS ARE GROWING!

Now that I had a chance to study them... I found a few odd things.
Conclusion: Yes, our little killer cyber-tots are growing!
(Note: Page number refers to file number of the scans... not the actual page number... oops!)

we've been over this... *looks for the thread, fails to find it*... anyway... yeah, either they grow, or Mr. Aida just changed his style.

Between Rico and Jean- That is a big difference.
And Claes & Triela in Volume 7... compared to former Volumes/Chapters, that is a major difference.
(Even Jose looks like a 60's Hippie Reject in Volume 7 or was it 8?)

Not see any page there.

Try again,would you?

Well putting artwork-style aside...Would it be possible for them to really grow? Did the process of conditioning restricts or stunts their growth? I mean like those growth hormones, skeleton, and stuff...Maybe it was also being affected by the conditioning.

yay another post

Castanza wrote:Well putting artwork-style aside...Would it be possible for them to really grow?

only if they're closer to biotechnology than we (or at least I) first guessed... or if they gradually get larger, more 'mature' replacement parts over the years.

I don't like the idea of them growing to much from a technical point of view. Carbon Fiber bones shouldn't grow. Thought when limbs are changed I supposed they could opt for slightly larger ones. Still that means all four limbs in one go, and a lot of the conditioning drug. That's heavy duty maintenance, plus you still the torso, and head out of proportion.

I think it's just a change in art style. Until I see what his face, the creator guy, say other wise that's my opinion. Besides I swear some one dragging out scans where they where short, tall, then short again.

The length from finger tip to finger tip on spread out arms is equal to the height from head to toes. Like I said before, if this measurement is off, then adjustments have to be made. This measurement can be based on the length of the spine. If the base of the spine grows, then the arm length will be off, and then the leg length will be off too. Adjustments have to be made.

The good thing is artifical bones (as used in young bone cancer patients) are designed to grow with the patient, requiring a visit to the doctor to make an internal adjustment theough a tiny incission.

The scan (I forget who it was) was on Angie, where in Vol 9- rumors has it that she is to die. This person basically montaged several scans together. At least it does show her getting taller in the 'Pasta Prince' Vols, and max height for her at the end, but a middle scan where she is short.

Its either that or the handlers are shrinking...
I bet Triela would love that.

While I wouldn't be one to argue with canon, I nonetheless question the purpose of allowing the cyborgs to grow. By growing, they would shed their most effective form of cover - their youth.

Wileama wrote:I think it's just a change in art style. Until I see what his face, the creator guy, say other wise that's my opinion. Besides I swear some one dragging out scans where they where short, tall, then short again.

that was me, and it was just Ange.
Here.

as you can see, she goes from tall to short in both volume 2 and volume 9.

ElfenMagix wrote:The good thing is artifical bones (as used in young bone cancer patients) are designed to grow with the patient, requiring a visit to the doctor to make an internal adjustment theough a tiny incission.

the only problem is that we're not talking about cancer patients... we're talking about bullet resistant, super-strong child assassins. hollow, telescoping bones would twist, break, or possibly collapse more easily than the girls' do, and I doubt they could stop bullets as easily as they do either. Somehow I think their bones are designed more along the lines of natural human bones, just made out of tougher stuff.

Volume 2's Pasta Prince deals with Angie's origins, thus there is a a great deal of flash backs to her past.

I cant say I know anything of volume 9, I dont have it.

But in comparison to Volume 2 and Volume 8, Angie did grow, but not by much. That is, in using the taller version of Angie from Volume 2.

Nachtsider, The girls are not supposed to live that long to begin with. They will die young and forever stay pretty.

Which begs the following question - how long, exactly, is the average SWA kid's lifespan? I haven't seen any fixed figures anywhere in the canon; my fan-fictional estimate is that none of the girls have a decade left to live.

Prettiness be damned - it's using their pre-adolescence to remain undetected that counts here in this dark and dangerous world of assassination and counter-terrorism. If they age, that asset, which I believe is one of the main reasons the SWA uses children as their agents, is lost.

Nachtsider wrote:Which begs the following question - how long, exactly, is the average SWA kid's lifespan? I haven't seen any fixed figures anywhere in the canon; my fan-fictional estimate is that none of the girls have a decade left to live.

I figure about the same 10 years for a Type 1 Cyborg; but that would mean that a Type 2 Cyborg would last 20 years.

Thus doing the math, With Petra being the oldest child to be cyborg'ed, she would live into her 30's. The Type 1s would last into their late teens and early twenties.

In the case of my cyborg Rachel, who is 13 at her cyborgnizing- she would live into her late 20's to early 30's.

If they were to stay forever young, this could produce a character like Claudia (Louis' companion from the Vampire chronicals). They say that condictioning is supposed to prevent that, but as Claudia showed, even though her body stopped aging, her mind did not, thus she became aware in many things while in a young body. That poses many problems for the handlers and their kill cyborg-tots. 10 years is a long time. 20 years is long enough for most people to have developed a life-time carreer.

Nachtsider wrote:Prettiness be damned - it's using their pre-adolescence to remain undetected that counts here in this dark and dangerous world of assassination and counter-terrorism. If they age, that asset, which I believe is one of the main reasons the SWA uses children as their agents, is lost.

I can see that happening. But I also see that mistakes will be made in the field and our lovely cyborg-tots killed in the line of duty.

I can also see sometime in the near future the technology scales being tipped as the bad guys get cyborg tech for themselves; either through another country like Germany, capturing a cyborg-tot or one of the Doctors going rogue on the group for money and power.

We will have to remain and see what happens next.

Nachtsider wrote:Which begs the following question - how long, exactly, is the average SWA kid's lifespan? I haven't seen any fixed figures anywhere in the canon; my fan-fictional estimate is that none of the girls have a decade left to live.

Prettiness be damned - it's using their pre-adolescence to remain undetected that counts here in this dark and dangerous world of assassination and counter-terrorism. If they age, that asset, which I believe is one of the main reasons the SWA uses children as their agents, is lost.

I personally think the number is much smaller, something like 4-5 years for first gen. I think second gen could maybe hit your decade mark. These are averages though. I think Rico, and Claes will fall short at 3-4, while Henrietta, and Triela might get something like 5-6.

I think you have to remember that children where chosen first due to technical reasons. In the first volume, Jean tells Jose the conditions are better in little girls. So the fact no one suspects little girls is byproduct of construction. Which isn't to say that the SWA doesn't like them as children. That's not so say little children are perfect though.

I remember in 'Life Goes On,' that a character hides out in a bar so the cyborg girls can't follow him. Imagine if he where to stop into a strip club. Hell no way the bouncer is going to let a little girl in, fuck he would call the cops on the handler. Though with an older girl, this isn't a problem. They can now keep an eye on that Mafiso meeting in the strip club. [Alessandro would fuck it up by asking for a lap dance with Petrushka! ]

Throw on top of that the girls will have experience. In there early twenties though would look like they could be new recruits in counter terrorism. Not bullet resistant professionals with maybe a decade of experience. The girls will always have some element of surprise. Whether it's shrugging off a bullet in the abdomen, or showing experience beyond their age. Sure Henrietta may not be able to pull off the 'help I'm a lost little hostage,' thing in a few years. Instead she'll have the experience to bounce a grenade off the wall, right into there laps.

Worse case scenario though the girls would just be used for testing like Claes. Maybe doing the occasional simple support mission though sniping.

I'm guessing at the decade mark because of Angie.

When she first entered she looks between 6 and 7 years of age. Since she was the first, her cyborgnetic implants probably took longer to develop and understand, setting the standard for others to follow. Lets say it took a year for Angie to learn her new body, and another 6 months for the docs to look her over and ooo and wonder about her. Give another 3 months of training- delay it another 6 months, we're almost pushing 2 years on something that takes 1/2 a year with the others. If using the 5 year mark for Angie, this gives her 3 years left. It seems to me that Angie has already has 3 years of experience under her belt, and at this point a the end of her service life.

If given the 10 year mark, this gives her an added 5 years to the end of her service life.

Not taken into account is the number of condictioning-rewrites,which is supposed to take away years from them. Lets say that on each condictioning-rewrite, 1 year is taken away, but 2 for Angie since they were not exactly sure on what they were doing... With at least 2 known rewrites for her, that can mean anywhere between 2 to 4 years taken away from Angie. Now she's in the negative numbers as far as a 5 year service life is concerned. She has 1 to 3 years left with a 10 year service life.

For her, Angie has a rough time ahead. The others are to follow soon. It begs to differ, if you were a handler, how would you treat a cyborg like Angie?

Cyborg or not, he/she is still human, and therefore deserves to be treated with the dignity that any fading warrior should. I'd push hard for he/she to retire peacefully and spend the remainder of his/her life in a non-combat capacity. If the brass insist on combat deployment, however, I would seek a compromise by putting the cyborg in a sniper, support or designated marksman role - something that would negate the problems brought about by his/her weaknesses.

Hear hear!!
Well put Nactchsider!

Admin would probably end up saying that Angie is to valuable a resource just to leave sitting around. I agree with Natchsider they would probably move her more towards support. Though they would probably step up the level of testing as well. Lots of questions about how the body breaks down to answer.

There is one thing though, who wants to end up in a nursing home? Even if it is a nice one, I would imagine Angie wouldn't like it. Some of the girls, like Triela would rather die then have to live like that. I'm not saying they haven't earned the right to enjoy their final failing bit of life. It's just the girls seem to programed, and I'm not talking about just conditioning, to want to do their job.

It's how they prove themselves to their handlers. How they get their praise. Elsa kills her handler, and herself, in part because she thinks she useless. Don't just put them on a shelf to collect dust, and be cried over. Give them something useful to do due. Have them help out in training. Use them as opponents in training scenarios. They can be assistants at the firing range. Don't tell them their useless.

Needless to say, that is true.

If indeed the cyborgs are growing, it has to be at a slowed down rate compared to normal people. Yes, there is the bones reinforced with carbon fibers, and the arms and legs being artifical themselves needed constant maintenance.

Not to say that they be slow to age, but slow to grow. A girl goes through at least 4 growth/develpmental spurts in her young life. 6 - 8, 8-10, 10-14, 14-18. 6 - 8 is mental and motor functioning. 8 - 10 is sexual awareness and start of her sexual development. 10 - 14 is of her physical development, 14 - 18 is when everything catches up and transforms her into the woman she is soon to be. Of course many see this as a single spurt from 8 to 18, but that is not how it goes. The girls are in between the end of the 6-8 stage and the start of the 10-14 stage (With Petra at the 14-18 stage). A girl has a lot of mental growing up during this time. Condictioning or programming be damned. Telling them that they are useless is a detriment to their mental and emotional state. As Elsa showed, what the consqences can be.

I don't think they would just be put "out to pasture" as it were. Like others said before me, I think that new duty assignments would issued instead.

I think it'd be interesting if the older cyborgs were made into a sort of Aggressor Team, much like you hear about in Counter-Terrorist settings They'd still be functional (if not 100%) and have an awful lot of experience on their side.

Mock combat scenarios and live training would be an interesting angle to take on as the First Gens get towards the end of their service life. And heck, maybe cause they're wearing out they go crazy and do a Dead Cell (Metal Gear Solid plug) "coup" of sorts and go apeshit.

Also, I don't think that girls would go through a "sexual awareness" phase at 8-10. Psychologically, children of that age just don't have the mind of an adult and wouldn't be "aware of their sexuality." UNLESS of course you mean they realize "Hey, how come he has a thingy and I don't down there?" and are referring to biological sex (female/male.) Which can happen at any age really since kids are curious little buggers. If anything I'd bunch that in with 10-14 when average puberty sets in.

Then again I haven't looked at my child development texts recently, so I'm mostly going off memory. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (and I'll have to find that blasted book.)

Thanks, Elfen.

Wileama's suggestions are solid - pretty much like the duties performed by real-life veterans no longer able to serve on the front line.

emperor wrote:Not see any page there.

Try again,would you?

Sorry; stupid isp guy is complaining about how my scans are eating too much of his bandwidth.
So I switch on him... serves him right... running a website server with 100 clients on it on an Amiga.

could just use imageshack or something...

I saw it now,thank you!

LoC978 wrote:could just use imageshack or something...

Unfortunately, I'm from the old school of the internet "Serve It Thy Self!" :twisted:

I go by the famous Homer-ism:

"Can't someone else do it?"

Planning pays off in the long run, but laziness pays off right now.

It's hard to believe it's just the art style, especially when you look at Claes and Rico. Between vols.5 and 7, Claes looks like she's aged 3 or 4 years (preteen to teen). Elfen's pics in the first post are also excellent examples. I think I'll just stay on the fence for the time being.

PS: I personally think it would be cool if they did grow up.

There's two things to think about. Maturing physically, and maturing mentally.

Now for me, if they get taller, look older, lose their freckles, get pimples, grow a rack, etc., that I don't really care about either way.

Then there is growing mentally. Where they'll mature and gain new insights on life whatever, that comes naturally with getting older. I find that to be much more interesting. If they haven't realized it already, they live pretty damn crappy lives (apart from having a place to live, food to eat, so on) being a highly sophisticated weapon.

I'd think as they matured they'd all kinda freak out. I mean, one can only take so much before you snap, no matter your loyalties or duty. But I would think that with such thoughts of "This place sucks! I want out!" then they'd probably be killed off or have another fun memory wipe which would probably reduce their lifespan anyways.

These girls are built to die. Simple as that. As we've seen with the Second Generation girls, the SWA clearly has plans for bigger and better things. Everyone there knows you lose a cyborg, you can make another (not saying they necessarily WILL, but could.)

I've always been for the idea that the cyborgs grow mentally without growing physically. Physical maturation, in my opinion, would only be possible if the cybernetic modifications and conditioning process are reversible. Like Wileama, I'll only be sold if I get some undeniable official confirmation.

Speaking of which, I sent Yu Aida an e-mail early today asking him for a definite answer. Let's hope we get one.

Speaking of which, I sent Yu Aida an e-mail early today asking him for a definite answer. Let's hope we get one.

Can you show our Mr. Yu Ida's e-mail? Please?

You mean his e-mail address?

rusty-spring wrote:I'd think as they matured they'd all kinda freak out. I mean, one can only take so much before you snap, no matter your loyalties or duty. But I would think that with such thoughts of "This place sucks! I want out!" then they'd probably be killed off or have another fun memory wipe which would probably reduce their lifespan anyways.

I don't think they will. First, you have the conditioning. I always got the sense that it was as much responsible for them not going crazy as anything else. Not unlike antidepressants, and the like. Second, I think some of them all ready realize the deal they've been given. Triela, and Claus seem to understand their lives very well. They haven't snapped, nor do they show any signs of snapping.

The reason for this is I thing the girls have a certain amount of forced maturity. Which is to say they are in a shitty deal, they all know they've got the equivalent of a terminal disease. It is something that they very quickly become aware of. That kind of knowledge forces a certain level of maturity out of them. Live each day like its your last isn't some catch phrase for these girls, it's a fact of life. That forces you to grow up damn fast. You remember Henrietta's speak to Marco at the end of the anime?

She more or less said she knew she was going to die, but she wasn't sad about it. She was going to make the most of what life she had. She knows she can't change the fact she's going to die, and die soon. The conditioning has helped her feel loved, true. Still that's not what brought out that speak. It's that forced maturity. It's living in a world unsheltered form the harsh truths of life.

Sure I think towards the end of their life spans you might see a few girls get a little hysterical. Look at angie, she gets down, depressed. It would be hard not to be. Death is fucking scary. She doesn't flip out though, she doesn't say fuck the SWA. Maybe that's the conditioning. Maybe that's just the strength to accept what you can't change...

rusty-spring wrote:These girls are built to die. Simple as that.

No, their built to kill. Weapon systems merely have life cycles. If I where to build something to die, I would do a much better job of it then these girls. Hearts exploding after ten beats, imploding livers, self snapping necks!

Claudia from the Vampire Chronicals is myonly best example of what happens to a character that ages mentally but not physically. She remained as a little girl physically, but mentally, she had matured into a lust/greed/sex and blood starved adult.

The girls seem to show this in some respect, though it would need a closer inspection of the bodies in question. Triela and Claes seems to be the ones who grew up mentally the fastest; at least in the anime.

ElfenMagix wrote:She remained as a little girl physically, but mentally, she had matured into a lust/greed/sex and blood starved adult.

I can't wait to see Triela mature into a lust/greed/sex and blood starved adult. Old Hillshire is going to have his work cut out for him...

Wileama wrote:

rusty-spring wrote:I'd think as they matured they'd all kinda freak out. I mean, one can only take so much before you snap, no matter your loyalties or duty. But I would think that with such thoughts of "This place sucks! I want out!" then they'd probably be killed off or have another fun memory wipe which would probably reduce their lifespan anyways.

I don't think they will.

It is it too much to ask to have a cyborg go apeshit? (no I don't count Elsa as "apeshit," that was severe depression) Sometimes you can only take so much angst before you get Evangelion.

Danjo3 wrote:

ElfenMagix wrote:She remained as a little girl
physically, but mentally, she had matured into a lust/greed/sex and
blood starved adult.

I can't wait to see Triela mature into a
lust/greed/sex and blood starved adult. Old Hillshire is going to have
his work cut out for him...

Like Internet Rule No. 34

34. If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions.

Know this to be true we do. [/Yoda]

I bet you could find it on the net if you searched hard enough. I've read enough of somethingawful.com to vouch for this.

Rusty wrote:Sometimes you can only take so much angst before you get Evangelion.

bah. Shinji was just a whiney little fucking pussy. I would have loved to be in his situation.

Rusty wrote:34. If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions.

opening line for a porno:
:yoda: Help you I can, yes... mmm.

Oh God No!!!
Not Yoda Sex!

LoC978 wrote:
bah. Shinji was just a whiney little fucking pussy. I would have loved to be in his situation.

Exactly. What kind of teenage boy cringes at living with two women? Well besides the teenage boy in question...

rusty-spring wrote:It is it too much to ask to have a cyborg go apeshit? (no I don't count Elsa as "apeshit," that was severe depression) Sometimes you can only take so much angst before you get Evangelion.

A little. I suppose it could happen, however it would be rare. This is half the reason they condition the girls. To keep them happy, and placated. They wont go bat shit crazy on you.

On a side note:
Shinji was a whiny little fuck who need to grow a pair. If I had been in his position I would have tapped that shit. Fuck, just being an Eva pilot would have gotten him play at the high school. But no, he had to whine about being the savior of the earth. Little piss ant.

Danjo3 wrote:

ElfenMagix wrote:She remained as a little girl
physically, but mentally, she had matured into a lust/greed/sex and
blood starved adult.

I can't wait to see Triela mature into a
lust/greed/sex and blood starved adult. Old Hillshire is going to have
his work cut out for him...

Don't forget neurotic. That girl was totally fucked up if I recall. Would Hillshire say something about the body she was keeping in her bed, or do you think he would just pretend it didn't happen?

Actually I can't help, but wonder now. Do you thinking the limited cranial space will be an issue for the girls mental development? I think they aught to be able to mature to what we call adulthood. Still one has to wonder...

rusty-spring wrote:Like Internet Rule No. 34

34. If it exists, there is porn of it. No exceptions.

I know that rule, and I know it's true. So here's my question. What are we applying it to? Triela turning into a lust/greed/sex, and blood starved adult? Yeah, Something Awful definitely had scarier porn then that. This doesn't even seem so outrageous. Especially when you think that it's probably a japanese dojin.

Wileama wrote:Especially when you think that it's probably a japanese dojin.

That's kinda what I was getting at. If you want to see Triela as a lustful, sex crazed loli, I'm sure there's doujin of it. I should hope that the actual GSG manga wouldn't go in that direction, nor would I want the manga to do it.

The Japanese don't know the potential they're wasting with their doujins. Instead of fixating on pornographic material, they could churn out excellent fanfiction with kick-ass art.

Stories like mine, however, won't work in a completely graphic medium. The turns of phrase and imagery I describe in words will be completely lost. The only way I can see my works being published as canon would be in the form of illustrated novels.

Triela as a lustful nymphette? Sheo would have a field day...

Nachtsider wrote:The Japanese don't know the potential they're wasting with their doujins.

I would tend to agree, but seeing as how popular (or how popular they seem to be) they haven't exactly "wasted" potential. They're just catering to the pervert market, and as well all know there are a LOT more perverts than manga aficionados.

Besides, everybody (ok, probably not EVERYBODY) loves to look at T & A.

To be honest, drawing naked people is much easier than drawing fully clothed ones. You get to just draw form, not worry about clothing and how it folds or shades, or just designing the damn clothes in the first place.

The thought has crossed my mind to draw some doujins of my own, but since I normally leave my artpad out on my desk when I'm gone, probably not the best thing to keep in public view lest it be stolen or other nasty things.

Hell, I know I'm guilty of having drawn the type of facial expressions that are normally found in such things.

I just found something by Lonely Peridot involving Triela and Hillshire, and then later in the same book, Triela and Claes.

Lets just say it was... interesting.

Nachtsider wrote:You mean his e-mail address?

Yes!!

:face:

Wileama wrote:Would Hillshire say something about the body she was keeping in her bed, or do you think he would just pretend it didn't happen?

I'm thinking the body in the bed would be Hillshire himself.

rusty-spring wrote:If you want to see Triela as a lustful, sex crazed loli, I'm sure there's doujin of it.

Tommy made some GSG porn available on his site. Triela appeared in all her glory. She's actually a very talented girl...

Tommy made some GSG porn available on his site. Triela appeared in all her glory. She's actually a very talented girl...

Should go to see it!! :stroop:

At your own discretion.

Personally, I found the Claes doujin's to be ...interesting in the least.

Claes her her own or is this the TrielaXClaes one?

never did get around to nabbing those off tommy's server. I feel compelled to now. To bad the serve is down...

boomer_gonz wrote:Personally, I found the Claes doujin's to be ...interesting in the least.

You got that right. You would never know by looking at her.