Re: gun nut thread

[Nachtsider]

The Minimi is a wondrous weapon - seldom do you find a more effective way of putting so much firepower into so compact a package.



This here's an Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf - a semiauto M-16 chambered for a .50-caliber round, packing the punch of a Barrett with the recoil of a mere 20-guage shotgun. In a word, awesome.

[LoC978]

... less punch than a barrett, the Beowulf is a proprietary round, it's no .50BMG. bigger than a .50AE, though. and it does pack one HELL of a wallop for an assault rifle.

[Nachtsider]

At fifty yards, I'd say it'd knock you on your ass just as good as any Barrett. This baby Aharon's going to use the next time I spring the Childville boys on the fanfic scene.

[Guest]

That's the sukker I reffered to in the first RPG thread.


p.s. - Sometimes a weapon doesn't have to be big to be cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abTGAP7tG0Y&feature=related

I'd sure love to have one of those on my work desk... (Your co-workers will never try to steal your doughnut ever again.)

[LoC978]

dude... a .22LR can actually be quite lethal... that little guy would be a monster for takin' down soft targets. you could mow down a field of people with a long enough belt... 'course, a calico is much more practical...

...back to the Beowulf... I wish I could find the test I viewed on television back in AIT (circa 2004)... it went to the same gun show as some new type of bulletproof plexiglass... and it was the only round present to penetrate the 5" thick block they brought. If I ever got myself an AR-15 family weapon, I would NEED a beowulf upper reciever for it... though I imagine my most often used would be the .308 upper... the AR-15 is kinda like Windows in that... not the best design in the world, but SO many options to customize it with...

[Nachtsider]

Why not 6.5 Grendel instead of .308?

[LoC978]

.308 is a cheap(ish) and very standardized (7.62x51mm NATO) round, while it still packs a decent wallop (much more than the .223/5.56x45mm). Basically, I'd use it more because it's more common. Kinda like the 9x19mm or .45ACP pistol conundrum. My .40S&Ws are common enough here, but what happens if I ever try to go to another country? ...I'd better have a 9mm variant, or I'll just run outta ammo.

[Nachtsider]

That depends on whether or not you'll be able to take your firearms with you when you flee America, LoC. Assuming the answer is yes, Rock River Arms has a very good 9mm variant of the M-16 you might want to check out.

[LoC978]

bah. if I want a 9mm that's not a pistol, I'll just go with one of H&K's myriad submachine guns... not that I think I ever would want one.

[Wileama]

It's beautiful. Not an everyday gun, ammo capacity is going to take a big hit. You know what though, this is the one I want when fighting cyborgs. When you positively absolutely have to get the kill on the first round. I very much doubt Rico's skull is going shrug off one of those bad boys.

**EDIT**
Fixed that second link. Stupid spaces...

[Nachtsider]

Of course no Gunslinger Girl could withstand that. The Beo's practically an AP weapon.

[Guest]

I did spend some time thinking about it before I asked, but what's an AP weapon? The only thing I could think of was anti-personell but that really doesn't seem to fit the context.

[edit] Duh! It's armor-piercing right?

[ElfenMagix]

Its Anti-Personnel.
Amour Piercing is meant for the rounds.

[Guest]

? That doesn't fit the context well since the vast majority of hand held weapons would be considered anti personell (I think), and the point of the post was that the Boewolf is something of a different class then your averadge weapon....

Whatever - I do get the general point: it's one hell of a big bad gun. Watch out cauz it might just take a huff and a puff and blow your house down.

[LoC978]

pretty sure what Nachtsider meant was that the Beowulf .50cal round could practically be considered Armor Piercing.
... IMO, it's much like the .50AE in that it pretty well created a new class for itself. It may be no .50BMG... but it'll still go through shit better than a .308FMJ. Imagine a FMJ version of the Beowulf... that'd be one helluva AP round for a commmon infantryman.

[Guest]

I can imagine it. I was pretty damn impressed by the thickness of steel plating that a standard FMJ AK round could penetrate.

I remember the first time I saw a 7,62x39 casing (found some in my grandmother's drawer ) I thought "That really small. Is this really a machinegun shell." And compared to teh 12~oddx99 mm round it really does seem puny.


[edit]Although theone on the picture isn't the one the Boewolf uses. Wileama posted some pictures of teh round, but I found that they weren't very good for getting a feel of how big it is since there was nothing to compare them to.

[Wileama]

Well it's sitting on the magazine well of an M-16. For those of use who have handled an M-16 it gives use some sense of the size of the round. I couldn't find a good comparison between rounds themselves...

[Guest]

I wouldn't really be able to tell the magazine well of an M-16 from a toaster. But, the inscription says Boewolf. Did I miss a pic or are we talking this one:

[LoC978]

another comparison, this time with a 5.56x45NATO (linked 'cause it's HEUG!!1!!111!!!!one!eleven1!

[rusty-spring]

If I could own any firearm without restriction (the USA's wacky, strange gun laws), right now it'd have to be the HK 417. I'm especially partial to the carbine version. Since it fires 7.62 NATO, it is interchangeable with .308 which as LoC said, is readily available everywhere.

Basically, I'd use it more because it's more common.
Kinda like the 9x19mm or .45ACP pistol conundrum. My .40S&Ws are
common enough here, but what happens if I ever try to go to another
country? ...I'd better have a 9mm variant, or I'll just run outta
ammo.

I agree, if for whatever reason you had to bring your own firearm with you, your best bet would probably be a 9mm. .40S&W is popular here in the states, but abroad it's mostly a target shooter's caliber.

dude... a .22LR can actually be quite lethal... that
little guy would be a monster for takin' down soft targets.

I don't have the source anymore, but if I remember right, most non-military firearm deaths are caused by .22LR (though I think 9mm was right up there too.)

I could be mistaken though...wish I could find that article again...

[Nachtsider]

I don't have the source anymore, but if I remember right, most non-military firearm deaths are caused by .22LR (though I think 9mm was right up there too.)

That's probably because so many .22s and 9mms are in civilian and law-enforcement circulation.

[Wileama]

I wouldn't really be able to tell the magazine well of an M-16 from a toaster. But, the inscription says Boewolf. Did I miss a pic or are we talking this one:

Yes that is the photo I was talking about. The hammer may have been changed slightly, but I suspect the lower receiver is at least outwardly identical. The only difference is probably in the upper receiver, and blot group. The lower receiver is in that case produced by Alexander Arms. Which is not to say that it's couldn't be an M-16 lower receiver, just not want it's meant to be in this case.

The HK 417 looks nice. I was impressed when I saw it on Future Weapons. Pumped something like 60 rounds through it on full auto, and the blot group was still cool enough to handle by hand. Nifty. HK seems to have tweaked out the M4. What isn't to like about that?

[Guest]

The girls don't stand a chance against my 6.5mm Carcano M91 Moschetto da Cavalleria! delivering the pain since the late 1800's.


It also has a bayonet!

[Guest]

Nice. I just love bolt action rifles. I could work that mechanism all day and not get bored, and the wood finish is an excellent thing too... I'm far too sentimental.

[Piero]

The HK 417 looks nice. I was impressed when I saw it on Future Weapons.
Pumped something like 60 rounds through it on full auto, and the blot
group was still cool enough to handle by hand. Nifty. HK seems to have
tweaked out the M4. What isn't to like about that?

From what I've read, weight. The HK416 is significantly heavier then the M4 (perhaps not so much an issue with the 417, since it's in a more powerful calibre). Although I do have to wonder how much of the extra weight is due to the gas piston and how much to other things. (Colt lists 5.9 pounds for the M4's weight on its site, but I suspect it can vary a bit by configuration -barrel profile in particular would likely have an effect.)

Since it fires 7.62 NATO, it is interchangeable with .308 which as LoC said, is readily available everywhere.

Actually, if I remember correctly, .308 does not have the same specs as 7.62 Nato, which has led some to question whether using .308 in a 7.62 Nato rifle is safe. .308 has a higher maximum pressure among other things, does it not? (As where with 5.56mm Nato I think it's the other way around, isn't it, with 5.56mm NATO generally being more powerful then .223 remington?)

[Nachtsider]

The only bolt-action I'd consent to would be AMP's DSR-1.

[Guest]

There are lots of good bolt-action sniper rifles (they're more accurate then their automatic/semi-sutomatic counterparts). Although the one you reffered to is indeed awesome.

[Sintendo]

I don't know about everyone else, but a simple .22LR rifle is fine with me... for target practice and general plinking of course.

I'll post some pics later, but I got rid of my Ruger 10/22 for Marlin 795 (Which, I think, is much better in terms of quality and accuracy) with a Bushnell Super Rimfire 3-9X32mm scope.

5000+ rounds, only 2 or 3 cleanings, and it still shoots like a dream.


Of course, I wouldn't mind having a Calico around the house for insurance...

Also got my trusty Mosin-Nagant M44 (with bayonet, FUCK YEAH!).... but that's a classic, so it's hardly used.

[Piero]

I've been wondering if I should start a seperate thread if I wanted to discuss firearms that relate to Gunslinger Girl itself, but I'm not sure if I should or not.

Anyway, I wanted to ask this: can anyone identify what sort of scope Angelica mounts on her AUG (when she's using a sight mount rather then the standard 1.5x scope)? I'm curious as to whether the model used is actually an appropriate sight for an assault rifle.

[Guest]

I've been wondering if I should start a seperate thread if I wanted to discuss firearms that relate to Gunslinger Girl itself, but I'm not sure if I should or not.

Anyway, I wanted to ask this: can anyone identify what sort of scope Angelica mounts on her AUG (when she's using a sight mount rather then the standard 1.5x scope)? I'm curious as to whether the model used is actually an appropriate sight for an assault rifle.

Could you maybe get us a picture? Scopes are pretty generic, so it may be hard to identify.

[Piero]

Here's a screenshot from the anime. It seems to me that the eyepiece on the manga version is a bit different.



It would probably be difficult to tell the exact model, but any guesses as to likely general characteristics? (Magnification, variable or fixed power, etc.?) I don't have much experience with scopes.

[Guest]

Random reflection I've had some time ago: I was thinking that the AUG has it's scopes maunted really high above the barrel. That's can't be good for accuracy, since the range to whitch it is trimmed correctly decreases... It wasn't designed as a sniper weapon though, so I guess it doean't make that much difference.

[Guest]

It could possibly be a Leupold 3.5-10x40mm M1 scope, but don't count on that. As I said before, scopes are pretty generic, and they aren't gun specific; any gun with mounting rails can fit almost any scope.

[Piero]

So you think it's probably a pretty high magnification piece of glass then? Bit of an odd choice for an assault rifle, especially when she's training for CQB.

3klicks:

The A2 mounting rail seems fairly low, although of course you have whatever you're using to attach the scope to the rail on top of that. As for the standard scope... are there any advantages to mounting a scope high for use at close range (in terms of allowing a natural posture, or anything like that)?

[Guest]

I really don't know much about guns so this is just intuitive logic speaking. But, when you trim your scope you do that for a specific distance at which the bullet will hit the mark exactly. For targets that are significant;y closer or further you have to adjust your aiming.

With a high maunted scope it seems that you will have to make more of an adjustment.

[Nachtsider]

Angie, I feel, was trained for designated marksman and CQB work, hence Marco's saddling her with an AUG.

[Piero]

Doesn't a 3.5-10x scope seem a bit overpowered though? For something like an AUG, doesn't it seem like something more in the range of 1.1-4x or 1.5-6x would be more appropriate?

Oddly enough the time in the manga where we see Angie using an AUG set up with a long barrel and bipod she seems to be using the standard 1.5x scope rather then whatever it is she's using in other scenes which show her using an AUG in assault rifle configuration.

3klicks:

You'd mentioned yourself that the AUG isn't a sniper weapon (although actually there is a sharpshooter variant). It's an assault rifle. A high mounted scope probably isn't such a big disadvantages for such a weapon, and perhaps it provides some sort of advantage in that role? (I seem to remember reading someone's opinion about the scope and shooting posture, but I can't remember exactly what was said.)

[Guest]

So you think it's probably a pretty high magnification piece of glass then? Bit of an odd choice for an assault rifle, especially when she's training for CQB.

Well, to put it vaguely, it's a huge scope. For CQB, you would be using either the ironsights or a small scope, such as a red dot. Also, it is an anime, so you can't expect it to be completely factual, nor can you expect it to be based off of an actual scope.

[Sintendo]

AUGs can do anything

But I'm not a fan of the bullpup design.

Anyways, I think that's either 1) some sort of lower powered scope for DM uses, 2) An artist error because the stock scope is actually the stock sights at 1.5X magnification, or 3) there always has to be a #3.

I agree with Nacht. After all the side-effects of the conditiong started appearing in Angelica, Marco moved her to the rear where she couldn't cause much trouble.

[Nachtsider]

Thanks, Sin. Funny how Marco and the rest of the SWA seemed to have forgotten their lessons in Episode Twelve, though.

[Sintendo]

Thanks, Sin. Funny how Marco and the rest of the SWA seemed to have forgotten their lessons in Episode Twelve, though.

Probably had a tiny amount of hope left for Angelica...

WELL WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT TUREND OUT, EH?

[Piero]

Well, to put it vaguely, it's a huge scope. For CQB, you would be using either the ironsights or a small scope, such as a red dot. Also, it is an anime, so you can't expect it to be completely factual, nor can you expect it to be based off of an actual scope.

Well, I wasn't necessarily expecting to get an exact model, but I was curious as to the scopes probable capabilities. It seemed quite possible to me that it wasn't really an appropriate choice.

Now, if the Schmidt and Bender Short Dot had been out when the anime was made, then that would have been a nice choice. It's a variable power optic with 1.1 and 4x magnification that includes both crosshairs and a red dot. Supposedly it's almost as fast as an Aimpoint up close, but is quite capable at longer ranges too. Been thinking of mounting one on my RPG character's HK53 (which may be a bit much, given how short the barrel on an HK53 is...).

BTW, from what I've read AUG A2s with sight rails and Special Receiver AUG A1s generally don't have iron sights. The iron sights on an AUG with the standard 1.5x scope are actually on top of the scope, and thus have a very short radius. I gather the 1.5x isn't so powerful that it isn't usable for CQB though.

[Sintendo]

I bought an AR-15 lower reciver today.

Just thought everyone would like to know... 10 days is gonna be a long wait.

[Wileama]

what do you have for the upper receiver?

[Sintendo]

what do you have for the upper receiver?

Nothing yet, but I'm still shopping around.

[LoC978]

if I may suggest...

http://www.ar15pro.com/item/44244_Bushmaster_Barrels_and_Choke_Tubes__Adjustable_Sig.aspx


oh yeah.. I'm back, and I'm really tired of the 5.56NATO round right now. handled too many of 'em lately.

[Sintendo]

I don't know if I'm going to complete it any time soon. I just bought it because I KNOW the democrats are going into the White House, and I KNOW they're gonna BAWWWWWWWWW all over the "assault rifle = everything with a pistol grip and detachable magazine that holds more than 10 rounds" bit, especially with the 1st death of an LA S.W.A.T. officer recently....

[Sintendo]

if I may suggest...

http://www.ar15pro.com/item/44244_Bushmaster_Barrels_and_Choke_Tubes__Adjustable_Sig.aspx


oh yeah.. I'm back, and I'm really tired of the 5.56NATO round right now. handled too many of 'em lately.

Oh yeah, normally I'd say "Fuck you, LoC. Fuck you." (not really, lol). But I see the -ness of it.



Edit: Also, I'm planning to get an upper with a flat-top so I can switch between a carrying handle/ironsights and a medium powered scope. Also, 20"+ bull barrel because I likes me a long range target-a-shootan.

[LoC978]

I hate iron sights on those damned things. I've gotten pretty decent with 'em (out of necessity), but I'll still take a CCO over iron sights any day. Still never fired an AR15 variant with a real scope, though.

[Sintendo]

I hate iron sights on those damned things. I've gotten pretty decent with 'em (out of necessity), but I'll still take a CCO over iron sights any day. Still never fired an AR15 variant with a real scope, though.

But... but... peep sights...


...They sound soooooo cuuuuuuuute! Peep! Peep!


Real Sin: WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU? AND GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY BODY!

[Guest]

However the M4 is smaller so it's easier to carry, and better at taking corners. If your say a vehicle operate a smaller weapon is more convenient. Also the carbine is the better choice in urban, and similar, environments.

and with no difference in accuracy, a lighter frame, nearly the same feel as the M16, and only moderately more recoil, it's pretty much completely superior to the M16... though the M4 is also a less effective melee weapon (I'll miss buttstrokin' people in the head... that rear sling mount can do some DAMAGE)

I'm not a ballistics expert, but like I said before the M4's shorter barrel would result in less velocity which is what I hear largely gives the 5.56 it's damage capability to compensate for the smaller bullet. The small rifle=small barrel problem is offset by bullpups.

Too bad the US hasn't adapted a bullpup design. That way you can have both the smaller, more maneuverable gun with a nice long barrel. I think it's because traditionalists don't like the "futuristic" looks of most bullpups.

But, I'm not a soldier so I guess I can't give opinions based on experience what today's soldier would need/want. :silent:

shorter barrel = less powder burn = less velocity = less terminal ballistic performance.
You can use different ammo to remedy this, of course. However, another issue to think about is sight radius. The reader's digest version is the longer the distance between rear and front sight, the less room for error you got when the sights are alligned. Think of it like tyring to get perfect sight allignment on a M16 iron sight, then M9 iron sight. With pistol sight, the slightest deviation translate to greater miss relative to riflle sight. Darn, that did not sound well. I used a huge rifle sight model to explain this in class....but anyway,

Did a test with M855 (green tip) and Mk262 using an m4 and full-length M16, prone unsupported. With the Mk262, the full-lenth barrel yielded about 1 to 1.5 MOA group at 100 yards, whereas the M4 gave 3 to 4 MOA. Of course, with normal MOUT engagement distance, this may not be of concern. You can hit an E-type sihouette at 100m easily with an M4, but if you require the versatility of both close, immediate, to far engagement (25m up to 300m and beyond), the A2 is the way to go. The complain that Joes have is the length of the buttstock, not the barrel length.

However, the green machine has found out that when you put optics aka. ACOG on an M4, put match ammo (MK262) and still uses the same user, suddenly accuracy of 2MOA and less is achievable. Hence, M4 + ACOG = viable M16-A2 replacement. Just my .02 YMMV

[Guest]

for those who's salivating over HK417 and not willing to wait 10e100000 light years before a civilian version is available, not to mention before Hitlary get into the office, POF-USA and LWRC makes the same gas-piston upper...or if you're on a budget, get the retro-fit kit http://www.primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=7&idproduct=24

This is not a shameless plug, I by no means am affiliated with any of these vendor

[Sintendo]

There's a group out there who makes AR uppers that accept P-90 mags...

Too bad it's banned in Commiefornjia.



Brought to you by Rhineland Arms.

[Guest]

There's a group out there who makes AR uppers that accept P-90 mags...

just when you thought you've seen it all
I don't care how well it shoots...that's just so...so...outside-the-box

[Sintendo]

There's a group out there who makes AR uppers that accept P-90 mags...

just when you thought you've seen it all
I don't care how well it shoots...that's just so...so...outside-the-box

I've read good things, but apparently Rhineland Arms is now defunct. Too bad, because between my own AR-15 and the rest of my familiy's variants (Grandpa = 2, Grand-Uncle = 3, Dad = 1, Uncle = 4, Uncle =...9... I think... lol Navy/Marines), It'd be nice to have something as unique as the AR57, front-heavyness aside... I was actually considering ordering this, but it looks like the only way I can get my grubby hands on one is finding a used one at a gun show.

[Nachtsider]

This isn't exactly about guns per se, but... which nations have body armor as standard-issue military equipment? Also, why do people see that wounding enemy troopers is better than killing them? Granted, taking care of their wounded men is a drain on the enemy's resources, but unless the wounded men are permanently disabled (losing an arm, or a leg, for example), they can always get better and return to their job of making your life difficult, while a dead enemy soldier means one less troublemaker shooting at you.

[Sintendo]

This isn't exactly about guns per se, but... which nations have body armor as standard-issue military equipment?

Can't say for the Army, but the Marines and Navy Corps Man defenitely wear some sort of body armor.

Also, why do people see that wounding enemy troopers is better than killing them? Granted, taking care of their wounded men is a drain on the enemy's resources, but unless the wounded men are permanently disabled (losing an arm, or a leg, for example), they can always get better and return to their job of making your life difficult, while a dead enemy soldier means one less troublemaker shooting at you.

Wounded soldiers drain resources, you got that right.

But, depending on the country involved, wounded soldiers are magnets for other soldeirs. The U.S. in particular heavily emphasizes the "No man left behind" rule.

[Guest]

Unless it's a less conventional unit that has special "operators" responsible for taking out those who are slowing/endangering the rest...


As for the mod it is really cool, and even if the armor piercing apability is not used it is still a big mag (50 rounds are better then 30).

On the other hand I really don't see any reason to speciffically try to wound rather then kill. I don't think that would be economical (designinig weapons speciffically to maim, but not kill). It is probably more of a raeson to accept weapons that have a lower probablity of killing, but are efficient at maiming/wounding that would be rejected if armies emphesized efficinet and "trusthworthy" killing.

[LoC978]

...and yet most of our enemies don't bother with battlefield medicine. I've always been a supporter of killing rather than wounding. We really need to start issuing 7.62x51mm rifles... and .45ACP handguns. The 5.56x45mm and 9x19mm are pretty much wounding rounds... though a person generally bleeds out when they don't recieve quick medical attention after takin' one.
...and yes, we in the US Army wear Interceptor Body Armor. Almost constantly. I'm actually quite comfortable in it, now.
As for other nations that use body armor... I'd Imagine most first-world nations do. I know Germany, the UK, France, Italy, and Poland all do, but I haven't studied much else. I did meet some guys from the Singapore armed forces when I was in training, and I believe they mentioned body armor at one point... and light discipline, I was so frickin' jealous that they didn't hafta polish their boots...

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