Gunslinger Girl -Il Teatrino- Discussion

Tommygunner70 wrote:for the bonding part, getting Petra to take it easy and act like a lover at the said train station I consider bonding too. I mean, how can you act like a love to some one just as a cover without having any sort of bond to your partner?

You don’t have to have any feelings at all for someone to do that kind of work Tommy. You could even hate that person and still do it well. Then again, you could just be looking for and excuse to grope your partner.

Tommygunner70 wrote:Hmm...
Now I know that I should be the one dictating word of the English Language, but I though Molesting someone meant that you were actively abusing another persons Private regions with out their consent or approval.

It comes in all shapes and forms Tommy. Hell, you can even verbally molest someone. And the fact that Petra is willing doesn’t make it right. Would you say the same about Triela or Elsa? Henrietta? Probably not.

At least I hope not…

Tommygunner70 wrote:now we have Petro who also loves her handler. but Sandro is the first handler who actually returns her love with love.

I think you’re wrong when you say Sandro is returning her love. Lust maybe, but not love. OK, so maybe he likes her, but that’s about it. As we all know, when it comes to Sandro, loves go nothing to do with scoring.

Danjo3 wrote:

Tommygunner70 wrote:now we have Petro who also loves her handler. but Sandro is the first handler who actually returns her love with love.

I think you’re wrong when you say Sandro is returning her love. Lust maybe, but not love. OK, so maybe he likes her, but that’s about it. As we all know, when it comes to Sandro, loves go nothing to do with scoring.

Right. You have to take into account that Sando really isn't a nice person. Not that he's just nasty, like Jean, but he's a (for lack of a better word) bum. He takes advantage of his cyborg when he KNOWS that she's conditioned and it's just the way he speaks and acts that make him a bad person. That's part of the reason why I hate Petrushka so much.

Danjo3 wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:Well Lorenzo has stated that they don't much care how the handlers treat their cyborgs as long as they complete the mission. And when Petrushka admitted under examination that she loved Alessandro, Doctor Belesario not only didn't care, he was in fact interested in seeing how such a relationship would play out over time.

If we’re going by that logic, then I guess it’s OK for all of the other handlers (including Jose) to start molesting their girls. I don’t know about you, but that’s not why I’m a GSG fan. Henrietta and Triela are both in love with their handlers, but we know they’re safe because Jose and Hillshire are men of moral fiber, not predators like Sandro. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that in the future Triela will start to push herself on Victor, but you can bet he won’t cave in to her advances. Sandro on the other hand was diving in before he even took off her factory sticker. (and spare me the, “It was just training.” line – I ain’t buying it)

I hope you checked your parachute before you took that leap of logic.

First off, to my knowledge, all we have seen is Alessandro kissing Petrushka at the end of Volume 9. And it looks like he did it with her consent, based on the image of them kissing Yu Aida drew and the fact she was "smiling dumbly" in happiness when she went back to her dorm afterward.

Compare that to Triela at the end of Volume 10. The picture Yu Aida drew was Hillshire being unconscious and she's in his lap with her arms around him. And if we go by the cover Yu Aida drew for Volume 10 (which I really don't like), she's effectively throwing herself on him.

Which of those two strikes you more as a "predatory" action?



I know many in the fanbase are of the opinion that Alessandro and Petrushka are in a sexual relationship, but we have been shown nothing that even implies such a thing. You have often commented on how Gunslinger Girl fan fiction writers are "horny bastards who want to vicariously have sex with a Gunslinger Girl through their fiction (be it through original characters or their handlers)", but it seems that Gunslinger Girl readers are guilty of the same (though in this case through the handlers only).

I agree that Giuseppe will not engage in sexual relations with Henrietta. But then, I don't think Henrietta is interested in having sexual relations with Giuseppe. Heck, depending on the damage to her reproductive system beyond what we know (her missing uterus), it might very well not be possible to have sexual relations with Henrietta. Based on her actions I have seen, I am of the opinion that what Henrietta wants is physical contact - hold her hand, hug her, let her lean against you.

As for Triela and Hillshire, her own emotions are her worst enemy. Unlike Henrietta, who knows exactly what she wants from Giuseppe, Triela doesn't. And Hillshire is living with the ghost of Rachelle Belleut and the guilt of his promise to her about Triela. And Triela has body of a 13-14 year old girl which likely has an effect on Hillshire, especially considering what he saw done sexually to 13-14 year old girls in the Amsterdam snuff films. Also, Western society looks dimly on a man in his late thirties having sexual relations on a girl in her early teens even if the laws of that society consider that age reasonable for consent. Triela may be mentally/chronologically 17-19 and therefore mentally capable of understanding and consenting to sexual relations with Hillshire, but other people don't know that. They would see a 13-year old hanging off a near-40 year old man and that's going to draw attention two operatives don't need.

Some people like to believe that Sandro/Petra is a fresh new story idea, but it’s not – its fan service. Plain and simple.

"Fan service" has been part of the Gunslinger Girl manga since the cover of the first chapter where you get that tiny glimpse of Henrietta's panties as she sits on the steps. Then we see Henrietta in lingerie being operated on in Chapter 1. Rico in a maid outfit in Chapter 2. Triela in lingerie is the cover for Chapter 3. We've seen panty shots of Henrietta in action scenes. Triela has gone from wearing men's suits to short skirts, tight sweaters and leather boots. Claes wears nothing but short skirts and tight sweaters.

I’m guessing that handler on cyborg action is something that Yu has been itching to do, but was too nervous to use the younger girls, so he created an older sex kitten for the job.

This whole thing started as a sexually-explicit doujin. Yu Aida tamed it down to make it "acceptable" for mainstream publication, but the Japanese market defines "mainstream" in a way that many Western societies would consider somewhat "extreme".

And he certainly feels comfortable in having Triela physically express her love for Hillshire in a passionate way. Petrushka didn't need to exist for Volume 10 to either be written or to have the impact the fanbase feels it did. And that fanbase cheered like madmen when Triela hops into Hillshire's lap and lays a passionate kiss on him yet we all recoil in horror when Alessandro gently takes Petrushka's chin in his hand and slowly moves to kiss her...

Triela wrote:Right. You have to take into account that Sando really isn't a nice person. Not that he's just nasty, like Jean, but he's a (for lack of a better word) bum. He takes advantage of his cyborg when he KNOWS that she's conditioned and it's just the way he speaks and acts that make him a bad person. That's part of the reason why I hate Petrushka so much.

Alessandro is a professional spy and in the performance of those duties, he is also a professional gigolo. And yet, the women he sleeps with have to be receptive to a short-term relationship as well. So I suppose that makes them "mean", too?

Petrushka was not conditioned to love Alessandro. She was conditioned only to be loyal to him. Based on what I have read, I am of the opinion that the imposition of love on the cyborgs for their handlers to try and reinforce their loyalty to the handlers caused too many problems and the decision was made to not include this in the conditioning for the new generation of girls.

It is possible Elizabetta had an innate promiscuous nature which is why Petrushka was immediately receptive to Alessandro and viewed all of his motives as sexually-influenced. However, we didn't see that in her back-story and I would expect it's a bit hard to perform ballet while six-months pregnant. As no birth control system is fool-proof and Elizabetta's overriding dream was to be a ballerina, I cannot see her risking getting knocked-up, even with the immediate and open access to abortion the Russian Federation offers.

Now, Petrushka's past was accidentally wiped during her hypnotherapy. She essentially only knows what was programmed into her by the medical staff. So maybe that is what people find so upsetting (or enticing?) - the opinion/view/feeling that Petrushka has no idea about physical intimacy or love so she really is just a "living love doll" for Alessandro to do with as he wishes.

Personally, I don't agree with such an opinion/view/feeling, myself (should it exist within the fanbase).

Danjo3 wrote:I guarantee you that if it were not for the fan service aspect of Petra’s character, Yu never would have created her.

Depends on whether he first started out to create a character with some depth, then added the fan service in, or started by creating a fan service character and added depth in. Frankly, I kind of doubt that either of us is qualified to make a judgement call on that, and it hardly matters too much anyway, since the end result is a character that does, as a matter of fact, have depth.

Also, on the point of Allesandro molesting Petra (and Tommy's opinion about love between the two for that matter), if anything until recently he's been pretty disinterested in her as a member of the opposite sex. No, seriously. I've been getting the impression looking back on some of the material that he really only cared about that aspect as it related to how she could be used in the field.

Hell, for that matter, I don't think she interested him much as a member of the opposite sex or even as a person initially. She was just a fancy new tool that he'd been given. And, IMO, I think she got him to interest her as a person first. He seems to find her behaviour rather fascinating, actually.

Danjo3 wrote:I think you’re wrong when you say Sandro is returning her love. Lust maybe, but not love. OK, so maybe he likes her, but that’s about it. As we all know, when it comes to Sandro, loves go nothing to do with scoring.

QFT

*raises a hand*
I'll be the first to admit, my dislike for Petrushka lies in the changes she brings to the series.

-Her backstory.
Instead of a girl stuck on the business end of life-ending tragedy, we have a teenager too weak to cope with having a prosthetic foot for the rest of her life. I realize in her case that's the equivalent of a guitarist losing a hand or a singer suffering throat damage, but... suicide? Sorry for being a callous bastard, but that just strikes me as chlorine in the gene pool.

-fanservice.
Now I know, kisk, this series has always had more than a little loli fanservice floating around in it... and those of us who aren't into viewing little girls as sex objects just ignore it or joke about the people who actually get off on it... but I guess with Petrushka I just took it personally because now I actually find one of the cyborgs attractive... and that makes me feel all kinds of dirty. Thing is... where, as her handler, I would recoil from anything beyond completely chaste physical affection from her... Alessandro moves in for a kiss the first time the chemistry between them suits him.

and that brings us to what I really dislike about this new fratello.
Alessandro.
Somethin' about this guy just rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps it's his lack of self control (or his lack of feeling he needs any). In any case, his attitude is that of an abuser. He's all charm on the surface, all manipulation underneath.
He reminds me of some old quote I can't identify... something said by an old-fashioned military guy along the lines of "As necessary as our spies are, I can't bring myself to not hate 'em. They're those guys you grew up with who you always knew didn't have a shred of decency in 'em. If they weren't double agents, they'd be coked up used car salesmen."
And for the record, what Danjo sees as 'Sandro's view of sex is pretty close to my own... I don't believe Alessandro is actually interested in 'scoring' as it were. As has been noted, he's a professional gigolo. He can always lie, cheat, and steal his way into a woman's bed if he's feeling all lonely, pathetic and emo... but those are the lines I won't cross for sex. Therein lies my biggest problem with him. He's trained to be completely amoral about the whole thing. To me, consent based on lies is a minor step away from rape, so Alessandro is only a minor step away from a rapist.
...
..
.
So yeah, my problems with them are all personal. It all stems from a feeling that they don't deserve to be in Section 2. I think most people in this fanbase who hate 'em are much the same, whether they want to admit it or not.

I don't really have anything to add LoC. That's a perfect way to describe how I feel towards those two.

I think Alessandro does infact love Petra. Some say lust, but that whole flashback arc about his past and why he "didn't want a redhead" shows something different imo.

Everyone can look at it in their own way though. But if you're fine and happy (as I am) with Triela showing her love, then I don't see why Petra showing it and having it returned should bother anyone? It's actually a bit hypocritical.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Alessandro and Petras current relationship more or less mirrors his past one with what's her name (I forget names sorry, heh).

LoC978 wrote:and that brings us to what I really dislike about this new fratello.

Your arguments are sound, LoC978, but in the end, I just don't see where Alessandro is really any different from say "James Bond" or some other fictional "he-man".

In the ADV translation of Chapter 30, Louis told Alessandro that the first series of handlers - including Jean, Giuseppe, Marco, Hillshire and Raballo - were having problems controlling their cyborgs because their military and police backgrounds meant they had "too many morals".

So yeah, my problems with them are all personal. It all stems from a feeling that they don't deserve to be in Section 2. I think most people in this fanbase who hate 'em are much the same, whether they want to admit it or not.

Personally, I don't think any of the girls deserve to be in Section 2.

But I don't think Petrushka's presence makes Section 2 any less capable and, in fact, I believe it improves their capabilities (which might very well eventually make SWA Public Safety hate them as much as SWA Special Operations Section One does).



As for Alessandro just seeing Petrushka as some new girl to conquer or toy to play with, while he said in Chapter 30 that he "didn't care" who he got, the fact is he wrote down what Elizabetta was (a ballerina) in his notebook (which had sample names of girls crossed out) and when he returned his his apartment, he started studying ballerinas. So I think he made a conscious choice to choose Elizabetta and relayed that choice to Louis (who forwarded it up to the SWA).

For all we know, she really didn't try and commit suicide nor did she lose her leg. That might very well have been a cover story the "Acquisitions Group" created in order to secure Elizabetta for the program. I also have to believe they performed a compatibility test on her before they brought her in, so they knew she scored higher then any girl to date and that likely would have made Lorenzo and the medical team want her even more for the program. The medical staff noted that Elizabetta's parents could not afford the medical expenses of keeping her alive after her suicide attempt so it could have all been faked to ensure her parents signed her over to Italian care and she "unfortunately succumbed to her injuries" a short-time later and was cremated and her "remains" sent back to Russia for burial.

Kiskaloo wrote:

LoC978 wrote:and that brings us to what I really dislike about this new fratello.

Your arguments are sound, LoC978, but in the end, I just don't see where Alessandro is really any different from say "James Bond" or some other fictional "he-man".

...Except Allessandro is a gimp who is 1 cm taller than his cyborg Petra... so that makes him a shrimpy gimp!

Kiskaloo wrote:First off, to my knowledge, all we have seen is Alessandro kissing Petrushka at the end of Volume 9. And it looks like he did it with her consent, based on the image of them kissing Yu Aida drew and the fact she was "smiling dumbly" in happiness when she went back to her dorm afterward.

I think you’re the one who needs to check his parachute Kisk. Consent? Do you really believe Petra is in a position to give consent? Not only is she under the influence of the conditioning, but she is programmed to do what ever he tells her to. Do you honestly believe this is a sound basis for consent? If you were to tell that to any Judge in the land, you’d be laughed out of the court room.

I said it before and I’ll say it again – Sandro is grossly abusing his position of authority.

BTW: Why is she smiling so dumbly? (besides the fact that she’s dumb) Just how far did our gigolo go?

kiskaloo wrote:"Fan service" has been part of the Gunslinger Girl manga since the cover of the first chapter where you get that tiny glimpse of Henrietta's panties as she sits on the steps. Then we see Henrietta in lingerie being operated on in Chapter 1. Rico in a maid outfit in Chapter 2. Triela in lingerie is the cover for Chapter 3. We've seen panty shots of Henrietta in action scenes. Triela has gone from wearing men's suits to short skirts, tight sweaters and leather boots. Claes wears nothing but short skirts and tight sweaters.

Damn Kisk! No offence buddy, but I think you’re looking a little harder then you should be to find all of that. I don’t consider any of the above to be fan service (unless of course, that’s your thing). Granted, Triela and Claes’ bathroom scene was, but other then that (and Petra in general) the story has been pretty much fan service free. It’s one of the main reasons people like it – and hate Petra.

Kiskaloo wrote:Petrushka didn't need to exist for Volume 10 to either be written or to have the impact the fanbase feels it did. And that fanbase cheered like madmen when Triela hops into Hillshire's lap and lays a passionate kiss on him yet we all recoil in horror when Alessandro gently takes Petrushka's chin in his hand and slowly moves to kiss her...

That’s because the fan base (myself included) did not view Triela’s gesture as sexual, but as emotionally charged drama. There’s no way you can compare it to Sandro slobbering on Petra, which was totally sexual in nature. Yeah we recoiled in horror, because for all intents and purposes, Sandro was getting ready to rape his cyborg. I don’t know too many people who wouldn’t be troubled by that.

Kiskaloo wrote:Your arguments are sound, LoC978, but in the end, I just don't see where Alessandro is really any different from say "James Bond" or some other fictional "he-man".

James Bond? He-man? I think you just earned yourself a fan-boy of the year award.

ElfenMagix wrote:...Except Allessandro is a gimp who is 1 cm taller than his cyborg Petra... so that makes him a shrimpy gimp!

Ya can’t argue with that.

Just need to jump in here and remind you guys of another scene where Sando opens Petrushka's shirt "so they're not suspected" by the people that they were watching in the car. Was that REALY necessary?

*vanishes*

Kiskaloo wrote:in the end, I just don't see where Alessandro is really any different from say "James Bond" or some other fictional "he-man".

I dunno... Bond relied more on instinct and the heat of the moment, choosing his girls randomly at parties, or just seducing whatever new girl came along on the job... it was never a close coworker, much less a subordinate, as far as I can remember. Though he did occasionally sleep with the enemy in much the same way that 'Sandro used to...

Kiskaloo wrote:In the ADV translation of Chapter 30, Louis told Alessandro that the first series of handlers - including Jean, Giuseppe, Marco, Hillshire and Raballo - were having problems controlling their cyborgs because their military and police backgrounds meant they had "too many morals".

One man's take on things, and a bastard at that. Louis appears to be expecting the girls to turn out as highly advanced AIs, not cybernetically enhanced people.

Kiskaloo wrote:

So yeah, my problems with them are all personal. It all stems from a feeling that they don't deserve to be in Section 2. I think most people in this fanbase who hate 'em are much the same, whether they want to admit it or not.

Personally, I don't think any of the girls deserve to be in Section 2.

So Rico deserves to be bedridden for life..? Henrietta, Triela and Angelica deserve to be dead? Or do they all deserve a dose of pixie dust and a 'happily ever after' fairy tale life?

Kiskaloo wrote:But I don't think Petrushka's presence makes Section 2 any less capable and, in fact, I believe it improves their capabilities (which might very well eventually make SWA Public Safety hate them as much as SWA Special Operations Section One does).

probably true, but we were criticizing the storytelling and characterization, not the logic. I've been convinced for awhile that the second gen cyborgs are the next logical step in cyborg tech.

Kiskaloo wrote:As for Alessandro just seeing Petrushka as some new girl to conquer or toy to play with, while he said in Chapter 30 that he "didn't care" who he got, the fact is he wrote down what Elizabetta was (a ballerina) in his notebook (which had sample names of girls crossed out) and when he returned his his apartment, he started studying ballerinas. So I think he made a conscious choice to choose Elizabetta and relayed that choice to Louis (who forwarded it up to the SWA).

He sure as shit didn't act like he gave a damn about her right off the bat. "Kid with a new toy" was a pretty apt description of his behavior, regardless of whether or not he chose the subject.

Kiskaloo wrote:For all we know, she really didn't try and commit suicide nor did she lose her leg. That might very well have been a cover story the "Acquisitions Group" created in order to secure Elizabetta for the program. I also have to believe they performed a compatibility test on her before they brought her in, so they knew she scored higher then any girl to date and that likely would have made Lorenzo and the medical team want her even more for the program. The medical staff noted that Elizabetta's parents could not afford the medical expenses of keeping her alive after her suicide attempt so it could have all been faked to ensure her parents signed her over to Italian care and she "unfortunately succumbed to her injuries" a short-time later and was cremated and her "remains" sent back to Russia for burial.

Quite plausible, and it pretty well reinforces the negative opinions I have for most of the reconstruction crew.

I've been watching anime since the mid-1970s. For me, "fan service" is a cute female lead because that's all we could look forward to in the 1970s. In the 1980s we added the shower scene, but that was it.

Nowadays, there is an anime that tailors to every desire, no matter how subtle or gross. And evidently panty-shots and lingerie are one aspect of that "fan service" (I guess to appeal to the "upskirt crowd").

Well I like Petrushka. Not as much as I like Claes, Triela, or Angelica but more then I like Henrietta, Beatrice and Rico. But since all I seem to have done this week on forums (here and elsewhere) is just argue about various subjects and I'm tired of it, so I raise the white flag and just walk away from this particular debate and go see Coraline again.

kiskaloo wrote:"Fan service" has been part of the Gunslinger Girl manga since the cover of the first chapter where you get that tiny glimpse of Henrietta's panties as she sits on the steps. Then we see Henrietta in lingerie being operated on in Chapter 1. Rico in a maid outfit in Chapter 2. Triela in lingerie is the cover for Chapter 3. We've seen panty shots of Henrietta in action scenes. Triela has gone from wearing men's suits to short skirts, tight sweaters and leather boots. Claes wears nothing but short skirts and tight sweaters.

Kiskaloo wrote:

Danjo3 wrote:Damn Kisk! No offence buddy, but I think you’re looking a little harder then you should be to find all of that. I don’t consider any of the above to be fan service (unless of course, that’s your thing). Granted, Triela and Claes’ bathroom scene was, but other then that (and Petra in general) the story has been pretty much fan service free. It’s one of the main reasons people like it – and hate Petra.

I've been watching anime since the mid-1970s. For me, "fan service" is a cute female lead because that's all we could look forward to in the 1970s. In the 1980s we added the shower scene, but that was it.

Nowadays, there is an anime that tailors to every desire, no matter how subtle or gross. And evidently panty-shots and lingerie are one aspect of that "fan service" (I guess to appeal to the "upskirt crowd").

yeah... Danjo, you'd pretty much hafta be blind not to notice Yu trying to attract the lolicon crowd with some of those...

I wrote:...this series has always had more than a little loli fanservice floating around in it... and those of us who aren't into viewing little girls as sex objects just ignore it or joke about the people who actually get off on it.

...
..
.

Kiskaloo wrote:since all I seem to have done this week on forums (here and elsewhere) is just argue about various subjects and I'm tired of it, so I raise the white flag and just walk away from this particular debate and go see Coraline again.

ah.
sorry, I do tend to whinge on about these things. It's all a matter of personal preference in any case.

LoC978 wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:

Danjo3 wrote:Damn Kisk! No offence buddy, but I think you’re looking a little harder then you should be to find all of that. I don’t consider any of the above to be fan service (unless of course, that’s your thing). Granted, Triela and Claes’ bathroom scene was, but other then that (and Petra in general) the story has been pretty much fan service free. It’s one of the main reasons people like it – and hate Petra.

I've been watching anime since the mid-1970s. For me, "fan service" is a cute female lead because that's all we could look forward to in the 1970s. In the 1980s we added the shower scene, but that was it.

Nowadays, there is an anime that tailors to every desire, no matter how subtle or gross. And evidently panty-shots and lingerie are one aspect of that "fan service" (I guess to appeal to the "upskirt crowd").

yeah... Danjo, you'd pretty much hafta be blind not to notice Yu trying to attract the lolicon crowd with some of those...

I guess the more subtle forms of fan service just don’t register with me. You have to drag me into the shower with Triela before the light goes on.

Allessandro was taught by his 'mentor' that sex is part of the job. Getting his jollies off is up to him to figure out. Face it, Rossana screwed for the job and got herself pregnant by it. Allessandro being a male and a gimp would not have to worry about getting pregnant, and therefore would not care about getting others pregnant for the job. He basically thinks with the wrong head and the ideas coming from it are "I'm A Tool... USE ME!"

As Danajo stated, Petra is drugged up and programmed to allow Allseandro to order her to do anything. In sending her to out and get shot being the upper limits of the allowence of her program, lifting up her skirt and dropping her panties for him would be very low on that list, and probably not much higher than picking up a meal for him at the compound cafeteria. Furthermore, her programming, much like the rest of the girls, would have her do it to satisify her handler... So Petra is screwed on more levels than one.

As stated in the episodes of Season 1 and in the first volume, Jean said to Fermi, "A cyborg is to die for her handler." Anything else under that goes. That includes sex with handler if they so demand it from them. But... as seen from our core group (Hillshire, Jose, Marco, Jean), this is not necessarily an option. As seen with Allessandro and who knows who else in the future, this is not only an option, but also a mandated right.

Jumping up and down on the bandwagon, Petra's inability to give consent, even if her conditioning isn't as strict, has to be the main reason I dislike Sandro. Even without any conditioning, it would be an abuse of authority, and clearly seems a relationship on an uneven footing.

I guess there are fewer threads denouncing Jean because he at least had a dead fiance and sister to push him over the edge?

I dunno... Bond relied more on instinct and the heat of the moment, choosing his girls randomly at parties, or just seducing whatever new girl came along on the job... it was never a close coworker, much less a subordinate, as far as I can remember. Though he did occasionally sleep with the enemy in much the same way that 'Sandro used to...

Absolutely right. His thing with Monneypenny never moved past banter and not even that in the books. Of course his attitude to women he did sleep with was even worse than Sandro's....

Why is Petra unable to give her consent?

Why can we not take the manga at face value? If the manga says Petrushka loves him of her own volition, why must we doubt it?

Triela is constantly raised up as this shining example of "true love independently found", even though the manga states she was compelled to love Victor. But Victor is carrying around some powerfully deep demons in regards to Triela so he keeps her at arms-length all the time. As such, I don't think he's ever given her a reason to actually express those feelings for her so I am not surprised her own feelings for him are confused until she understand just why he won't get close to her.

If Victor had treated her more like Giuse treats Henrietta, I don't think Triela would be the strong, independent girl so many here admire.

Kiskaloo wrote:Why is Petra unable to give her consent?

Why can we not take the manga at face value? If the manga says Petrushka loves him of her own volition, why must we doubt it?

Because she is conditiond by a drug to do so.
Any influence by any drug, no matter how slight negates her statement. She may think she is acting by her own accord, but there is an outside force, no matter how slight, swaying her into that line of thinking.

Lets put it this way...
All people have problems.
These problems maybe real, fake or imagined.
Real problems are real- period.
Fake problems are real as they create problems on their own (like lying).
Imagined problems are real because they may not exist, but to that person it is real.

In Petra's case- she is in love. Period. But there is an outside force swaying her, no matter how slight, into that emotion. Thus as long as the drug is that force is there swaying her, she will be in love with 'Sandro. Take away the drug, you take away the force that is swaying her into that emotion, and who know what she might do to the poor gimp!

Kiskaloo wrote:Why is Petra unable to give her consent?

Why can we not take the manga at face value? If the manga says Petrushka loves him of her own volition, why must we doubt it?

She’s programmed to be loyal to him, conditioned to be loyal to him. She’s doped up. Hell, she blows chunks if she calls him a piece of shit. For all we know, just the thinking about hating him may make her physically ill. With that in mind, do you honestly believe her love is of her own volition? Do you seriously believe Elizabeta would feel the same way?

I think some folks are forgetting that love ain't just a feeling...

Petra's "in love" the same way most sixteen-year-old girls are in love with an idealized version of someone they admire and are attracted to... though with the addition of chemicals that ensure she's no longer capable of feeling that way toward anyone else. All of these things are to be expected given her situation.

...one other thing one could expect is that her trainer/superior would keep their relationship professional, no matter the temptation.
Problem is, 'Sandro used to have sex with young women professionally... at this point I'm pretty well convinced that the Agency was trying to make sexual partners of 'em, just to see if it would work better than the big bro/little sis thing of the first generation. Why else would they turn a gigolo/spy into a handler for an attractive late teenage girl who has been doctored up to look slightly older than she is?

This is where I agree with you both; Danjo & LoC!

LoC978 wrote:Petra's "in love" the same way most sixteen-year-old girls are in love with an idealized version of someone they admire and are attracted to... though with the addition of chemicals that ensure she's no longer capable of feeling that way toward anyone else.

Which all boils down to the fact that Petra’s so called love is something she has been manipulated into, not something she feels naturally.

My arguement is that those idiots who are administering the drug are as new to what is going on as the people being subjected to it.

Brainwashing is more of an art than it is an exact science.
Drugs can only work when applied, and results observed. Yet this is a case where the scientists here are seeing what they want to see and not be held accountable if the shit really hits the fan in a big way!

Sandro: Petra, my love... I want you to walk into Lorenzo's office and shoot everyone in there and then work your way to the administration offices and kill everyone there. Once you're done, we can run away to France and dine one cheap cheese and 5 Euro wine.
Petra (cocking her gun): Anything for you, love!

That is the way I see it, and so it may seem so some of do the others.

Any external influence on an emotion alters that emotion. It does not matter by how much as long as it does. That is where all this comes down too. The only true test is to remove the conditioning drug and see what happens to Petra... Who the f-ing knows- she might wake up with full Elizabetta memories, hung over and facepalming herself before she kills a sleeping 'Sandro and then takes a long walk back to Russia!

Maybe. But having been under condition at all would've influenced her 'real' feelings; its the old trouble of telling the difference between a teenage crush and the drug-enhanced variant.

Petra's "in love" the same way most sixteen-year-old girls are in love with an idealized version of someone they admire and are attracted to... though with the addition of chemicals that ensure she's no longer capable of feeling that way toward anyone else. All of these things are to be expected given her situation.

Put like that, Petra might well have got it on with Sandro without any conditioning, out of plain old teenage impulsiveness and irresponsibility (Elizabetta, however, had neither of these quaities). It would have been her choice, though, rather than compelled.

Ghostfriendly wrote:Maybe. But having been under condition at all would've influenced her 'real' feelings; its the old trouble of telling the difference between a teenage crush and the drug-enhanced variant.

Now that is the equation to answer.

Ghostfriendly wrote:

Petra's "in love" the same way most sixteen-year-old girls are in love with an idealized version of someone they admire and are attracted to... though with the addition of chemicals that ensure she's no longer capable of feeling that way toward anyone else. All of these things are to be expected given her situation.

Put like that, Petra might well have got it on with Sandro without any conditioning, out of plain old teenage impulsiveness and irresponsibility (Elizabetta, however, had neither of these quaities). It would have been her choice, though, rather than compelled.

Go back to your first statement and apply an equation here. There is where an answer will be. Remember, an unconditioned Petra is Elizabetta with cyborg parts. She would rather die by jumping off a roof than getting it on with a Gimp.

How exactly is Alessandro a "Gimp"?

I also think that you're misapprehending Elizabeta as well - she'd be more open to a relationship than you think. She avoided relationships as a whole because her education and training regime demanded it; her ballet defined her life (hence her suicide when she lost her leg), but by the time she travelled to Italy for work on her leg she was only a few months from graduation, with someone waiting for her.

Robert Frazer wrote:How exactly is Alessandro a "Gimp"?

I’m going to agree with Robert on this on Elfen, he’s not a “Gimp” - he’s a straight up “Asshole“.

Robert Frazer wrote:How exactly is Alessandro a "Gimp"?

I also think that you're misapprehending Elizabeta as well - she'd be more open to a relationship than you think. She avoided relationships as a whole because her education and training regime demanded it; her ballet defined her life (hence her suicide when she lost her leg), but by the time she travelled to Italy for work on her leg she was only a few months from graduation, with someone waiting for her.

Knowing many professional and student dancers that I do, I know their lives is one of hardship and sorrow. It is a subject matter that I do not dwell in unless it is with other known (to me) dancers. But I will tell you this much:

Dancers start early and continue to so do through out their carreers, and I'm talking about promoting themselves and doing certain things in order to promote themselves as that #1 dancer. They will (and actually) do anything to be put on the show and do their damndest to be the star. Elizabetta is no different in this. Open to relationships? HA! Its who she is willing to be open to when talent and skill is at an equal level with everyone else! It is a very cut throat environment they live in, and if they have to sleep their way to the top, then they will and most practically all have!

A Dancer's life is not one of romance. There is no room for it. There is nothing but self promotion and taking out the competition as many pegs as possible without taking themselves down. The rate of certain ailments and diseases in dancers is almost unbelievable. Worst of all, Dancers who do not take care of themselves go to an early grave. Unfortunately, their profession is one with one of the highest HIV infections outside of medical, professional rescuer or sexual professionals (prostitutes). One can not understand why this is so unless you have been in their world and seen it for your own eyes. This is worse than beauty pagents.

I have known dancers to mutilate their bodies so that they can fit the standard they are striving for. I have heard of dancers kill themselves because they were not good enough for a production or graduation. If a producer wants 10 blondes in his show- 99% of all the brunettes in the class of 100 dancers will dye their hair! Guarentteed!

This is the secret that they carry within themselves through out their lives and their careers. I have seen and buried a couple of dancing friends in my time, and I dont like it. But it the the they choose to live and I hope them enjoyed themselves while they were here. I know of more that are following in their footsteps. All I can do is watch and wish them the best of luck.

I think a good bit of the "disconnect" we have in our debates is we look at Gunslinger Girl through the prism of our own experiences, and not what Yu is trying to portray. Yu shows us one thing, but it doesn't track with our own experiences, so we discount Yu's intent and apply our own in place of it because we know the subject better then he does.

I hate Episode 12 of the first series. Why? Because as a combat soldier the entire thing just dripped with incompetence. Henrietta goes into combat in a school-girl uniform. Angelica rapels down a cliff-face and across a snow-covered roof in ballet flats. They're supposed to be sneaky and they fly down a valley in UH-1 Hueys that can literally be heard for a good 10km.

If I wrote that episode, it would have been very different. In fact, I wrote Under the Radar specifically as a counter to the episode.

But I didn't write that episode. So while I may not agree with what happened in it, when I discuss it I accept what happened as having happened. I don't say "well it would not have happened this way in real life, so let's just act like how it should have happened actually happened and ignore what we saw on the screen". I have to accept the anime at it's face value in order to have a common ground to discuss it with people who may not have my background of military strategy and tactics nor my combat experience.

As such, I also have to accept the manga at it's face value. I don't work with young girls for a living so I don't have deep knowledge of - and experience with - how they respond in such situations in real life with deep know. But even if I did, I have to give Yu Aida the benefit of the doubt that he doesn't. And therefore, he's not writing Petra and Sandro from a position of authority. He's just trying to tell a story he hopes people will find entertaining.

And that is why I argue the positions I do. Yu Aida may not be drawing situations and people's actions accurately in his manga, but it's all I have to work with pending him agreeing to an interview where I can ask him specific questions as to his intent.

Kisk- you're absolutely right with that.
Yu is only telling a story, and he will be wrong with some of the elements within it. But it is still an excellent story. Errors I can understand, because nobody is an expert on everything. But flip flopping on certain things I cant.

Maybe I missed it in the previous 65 pages of this thread, but was that supposed to be Elizabeta in Episode 5 at the scenic overlook that Patricia and her 'friend' went to?
Certainly looked like her, except perhaps a little younger. The fact that her Italian was weak lends to it. (I haven't seen all of the episodes yet, so don't be harsh)

maverick375 wrote:Maybe I missed it in the previous 65 pages of this thread, but was that supposed to be Elizabeta in Episode 5 at the scenic overlook that Patricia and her 'friend' went to?
Certainly looked like her, except perhaps a little younger. The fact that her Italian was weak lends to it. (I haven't seen all of the episodes yet, so don't be harsh)

Haha I thought so to ^_^

maverick375 wrote:Maybe I missed it in the previous 65 pages of this thread, but was that supposed to be Elizabeta in Episode 5 at the scenic overlook that Patricia and her 'friend' went to?
Certainly looked like her, except perhaps a little younger. The fact that her Italian was weak lends to it. (I haven't seen all of the episodes yet, so don't be harsh)

I'll be damned, but that actually is her. Her hair style and facial feature are identical to how she appears in Volume 6. And she's obviously not Italian since Leonardo Conti tells her he is glad she is enjoying Italy.

It's obviously a cameo since Elizabetta does not appear in Chapter 23, which is what this episode is based on.

For those looking for the scene, it is about 13 minutes in.

*Quickly flicks back to the Funimation stream* Great Odin's Raven! So it is, to the hair. Her presence doesn't further any plot strand in the story itself - Yu did indeed indulge in a cheeky cameo. Her ballet college must have organised an Easter expedition to the Teatro Dell'Opera.

Maybe the school's past experience there gave the medic the notion of sending her to Italy for her cancer operation?









On a different note, while you can gripe about the saucer-wide eyes and stilted animation in Il Teatrino, the backgrounds are of a high quality. Looking back through a few episodes, I think that they're at least as good as the first series' landscape shots.

For the record and those interested,that cameo was first discussed on page 20 and 21

Before my time, then. Tells you how much I (don't) like -Il Teatrino-, however, to miss a cameo by Elizabetta...

I said that was Elizabetta a long time ago! *looks at those who disagreed with him* BUT NO!!!

Tells you how much I (don't) like -Il Teatrino-, however, to miss a cameo by Elizabetta...

Hmm...I'm not sure why I picked up on it immediately, I just did.

That bow is terrible, though. I'm surprised she isn't shot for that in Italy.

I’m sure that in another 3 or 4 months, someone else will discover that cameo.

ElfenMagix wrote:I said that was Elizabetta a long time ago! *looks at those who disagreed with him* BUT NO!!!

hey i could remember me juping up and down shouting "holy shit, what's that 2nd gen trash doing in il teatrino!!" a long time ago as well

Yes you did, West Nile... I remember it well!

West Nile wrote:hey i could remember me juping up and down shouting "holy shit, what's that 2nd gen trash doing in il teatrino!!" a long time ago as well

LOLZ! That reminds me, Crystal is going to be a Second-Gen as well. I have a scene in mind where she see's Petra in her 'dud's'(I'll call them) and she calls her 'Euro-trash'.

boomer_gonz wrote:

West Nile wrote:hey i could remember me juping up and down shouting "holy shit, what's that 2nd gen trash doing in il teatrino!!" a long time ago as well

LOLZ! That reminds me, Crystal is going to be a Second-Gen as well. I have a scene in mind where she see's Petra in her 'dud's'(I'll call them) and she calls her 'Euro-trash'.

Is it just me, or does Beatrice seem like she has a low IQ? Watching her, I got the impression of limited intelligence, and after several scenes, I got the idea that maybe she was one of those kids that is abused by being penned in with the dogs, or something like that. It might explain both her dog-like abilities along with her limited emotional and intelligence range. Just thoughts.

I don't believe it is a lack of intelligence, just a lack of emotion and socializing skills.

Beatrice probably has hyperosmia, though this is usually a sign of other problems (severe headaches or Addison's disease). Perhaps she is on industrial-strength painkillers to keep the headaches at bay while still allowing her to retain her hyperosmia which is why she appears "stoned".

I can see why she hangs out with Claes, since Claes also has a very limited emotional range and is not the most social of people, either. Claes and Beatrice don't "bug" each other which probably helps them accept each other.

are u sure, because ever since i was able to read the subs of il teatrino im getting convinced that beatrice is half dog.

ep 8
Beatrice: where did the food go
Claes: all gone
Beatrice: *groan*
Claes: i got some cookie in my room
Beatrice:
Claes: but u need to do some work for me
Beatrice: *groan*


*at the end of the day (not in the episode)*
Claes: nice work Beatrice, u get ur cookie
Beatrice: ^_^

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