Elsa: Not Such An Efficient Girl?

Its not his job cost him Patricia. Patricia being a journalist, was always want to be a nosey bitch, using her position to try to pry information from him about his job. Honesty maybe the best policy in any relationship, but when you know your significant other works for the government and he can not disclose any information about his job, he should be left alone! That is what Patricia failed to respect with Marco. She should consider herself lucky that Marco let her go when that Padania terrorist/journalist friend held her hostage at that vacant building when they were seeking information about the SWA.

I'm talking initially, Elfen. When Angie's problems first became apparent, Marco began spending more and more time at the Agency, started drinking heavily, and became short-tempered. Patricia often smelled gunpowder on him, too, and this alarmed her because he had been claiming to be working with children. When he could not provide her with an explanation, a split took place. Therefore, I feel that Marco's subsequent apathy towards Angie was also influenced by the fact that he blamed her and his job for causing his fiancee to leave.

Ah, The stress that comes with certain jobs...
Can one sit down and say that it was really worth it in the end?

I suppose you'd have to decide between A) Future wife and a possible family for B) A doomed child assassin.

Hmm...maybe that doesn't sound like such a great trade off after all...

rusty-spring wrote:I suppose you'd have to decide between A) Future wife and a possible family for B) A doomed child assassin.

Hmm...maybe that doesn't sound like such a great trade off after all...

I'm not sure what he wants. His job is getting him depressed, made him a drunkard, and got him split up with his fiancey (to Elfen; its true that it was mostly her fault, but it's also true that if he wanted that relationship more than anything else he would have quit). What does he see in it?

LoC978 wrote:

klicks wrote:Marco, Raballo: 4/5 (good training just isn't enough for someone who can't really as much as do a combat search of a house)

I don't see Marco and Raballo as being the same at all:
Raballo
suffered an injury which affected his mobility, so he can't trust his
body on the front line. however, his marksmanship should be unaffected.
Marco suffered damage to his eyesight. He can clear a building, rough up street punks,
do all of the things that a member of NOCS is supposed to do, minus
sniping and making called shots. The only reason Marco is a less
effective handler than Jean is his apathy, which only developed after Angelica started forgetting what he taught her.

Yeah, I'm just a lazy bum and put the comment next to the both of them. I meant Raballo. As for where Marco stands, I confess I really haven't put much thought into that. (Good call on the house search scene. I should re-read the manga ; it does stand in his favour and it totally slipped my mind.)

It's hard to compare the handlers without definite specifications as to what to grade. I was trying to base my ratings on the sheer long-term killing power of handler + cyborg. (Assuming that section 1 is supposed to take care of the intel.)

In that respect I figured that Marco's psyhological/cyborg relationship problem and eye injury, evened out with Raballos leg injury.

Hilshire is up there mostly for his ability to keep Triela in top condition both training wise and on the psyhological side (but that's ok, since it makes his fratello effective). I may have given Jose too much credit, though.

Somehow I doubt Marco's got much on Jean.

LoC978 wrote:do all of the things that a member of NOCS is supposed to do

Didn't he leave NOKS because of his eye injury?

Jean's fighting skills are top notch (as seen in one of your posts above), and Rico (although somewhat inflexible) is chisled into a fine killing mashine, more effective then Angelica.

LoC978 wrote:The only reason Marco is a less effective handler than Jean is his apathy, which only developed after Angelica started forgetting what he taught her.

Well that works into psyhologial fortitude. (I used to use that kind of argument a lot. But if I went, say to the military, and told a sarge that I would be great if he would just stop being so mean I'd seriously get my ass kicked. ) I doubt Jean would be fazed by any of that at all.

I wouldn't bet much on any of my ratings, but I maintain that Jean is at the top, Alessandro and Lauro at the bottom. (using the cryteria I mentioned above)

I graded them on three things. First how do the manage the relationship with their cyborg. Not whether their kind, or any of that. How their relationship effects work. Henrietta goes ballistic protecting Jose some times, not good. Rico will do just about anything to please Jean, yet clearly wont snap and kill Jean. 3 points out of 10.

Second how effective are they at training their cyborgs. Do they train them to the full potential of their talents. Again Henrietta is a bad shot compared to Rico. 5 out of 10.

Third, how well do they preform out in the field as a partner. 2 out of 10 points.

That was my grading rubric. A handlers most important roll is to train his cyborg to do her job. Second he has to make sure her moral is good, and she's ready mentally for her job. Finally he has to act as a face, and partner in the field.

ElfenMagix wrote:Its not his job cost him Patricia. Patricia being a journalist, was always want to be a nosey bitch, using her position to try to pry information from him about his job. Honesty maybe the best policy in any relationship, but when you know your significant other works for the government and he can not disclose any information about his job, he should be left alone! That is what Patricia failed to respect with Marco. She should consider herself lucky that Marco let her go when that Padania terrorist/journalist friend held her hostage at that vacant building when they were seeking information about the SWA.

I beg to differ. Yes Patricia was a part of the reason why the relationship failed. She hardly the one to blame though. Keeping a secret from your significant other has consequences. It puts tension on the relationship, that you have to deal with, or the relationship is going to suffer. Patricia is limited in what she could do to ease that tension. Mostly it's to be understanding, and patient. That's a lot to ask if you don't give anything in return. Marco has to give her something, just talking to her about the 'situation.' The way Patricia talks in volume 5, it doesn't seem she was getting any of that. Marco comes home, has a drink, acts generally apathetic, and dejected. I would only put up with that in a partner for so long.

Marco seems to have this world view of himself as a military man. That's who he is, it's what he does. I think Marco doesn't think he can be happy in any other kind of job. There's a little be of chivalry, and fear there too. He wants to support his wife. Marco might not think he can do that in any other field. So he wants to get back in the NOCs, and to do that he'll do what he has to. That's what he things at first at least. Soon it becomes clear that he's paying a price he doesn't want to. By then though it's to late to change things, or at least to hard.

3klicks wrote:

LoC978 wrote:do all of the things that a member of NOCS is supposed to do

Didn't he leave NOKS because of his eye injury?

Jean's fighting skills are top notch (as seen in one of your posts above), and Rico (although somewhat inflexible) is chisled into a fine killing mashine, more effective then Angelica.

In the first chapter of volume five, Leo tells Marco thanks to his eye injury he would probably hit Patricia if he shoots. Most of what we see Marco doing doesn't require absolute accuracy. He only has to hit center mass. Also he might have already begun to early treatments return his full eyesight.

3klicks wrote:Somehow I doubt Marco's got much on Jean.

never did... though I'd say the old Marco, when he first trained Angelica, was just about on-par with Jean (though in a different way... kinda like combining Jean with Giuseppe). 'Cause when she started out, Angelica was a total badass (as depicted in the anime, anyway. no early action shots of her in the manga besides breaking up the knife fight. a pity.)

Wileama wrote:She hardly the one to blame though.

In a way they both made their decisions. In the begginig Patricia tried very hard to convince Marco not to go back to any military job at all; she argued that her sallary would be enough, but Marco wanted to join. Then Marco told Patricia that he can't tell her what he does and doesn't want to talk about it, but Patricia wanted to know, that was her choice. In the end it seems their expectiations were incompatible.

LoC978 wrote:as depicted in the anime, anyway.

Sometimes I wonder wheather I hadn't got pumped full of the drug myself. Are we talking about the "Claes as bait" action (she botched that one) or is there something more I don't remember?

Nachtsider wrote:No-one gets the drop on Jean - not even when they have him at gunpoint. Remember what happened in Episode Seven?

Just noticed he did have a distraction. It still takes quite a bit of skill, though. (*loves Rico's expression in first panel*)



Here's an interesting thought: the cyborgs seems to share some of their handlers character traits.

Rico: Has an outward self, but also an inner world of pain that no one gets to see. And during missions shes identical to Jean.

Triela: She may seem different form Hillshire, but in the Mimi spisode she says that she's happy because she's finally helping others and she takes care of the other cyborgs. That caring is what got Hilshire out on the mission that saved her.

Claes: Raballo's "wisdom". She doesn't get thrown around by emotions and contemplates things in a calm manner. Also his love of books, and gardening.

Henrietta: She's screwed up just like Jose. Emotional, and with the same obsession over Jose that Jose has for his sister.

Angelica:... I don't have an idea for her yet. There's proubably something.

3klicks wrote:Sometimes I wonder wheather I hadn't got pumped full of the drug myself. Are we talking about the "Claes as bait" action (she botched that one) or is there something more I don't remember?

nah, it was about 19 minutes into episode 8, where Marco was watching a video taken by a helicopter...
reminds me of a one-shot I never finished from Marco's perspective, where he pretty much spends the day reminiscing:

I wrote:Shaving: a morning ritual of 'respectable' men nearly worldwide. The kind of men who manipulate nations and ruin lives for financial gain. The kind of men who train formerly disabled little girls to kill people... and occasionally those people are criminals or terrorists. Like I said: respectable.
As I watch myself perform said ritual this morning, my mind is far away... well, perhaps not that far. My gaze shifts to a framed picture to my left... a little girl in a pink dress, her raven hair held away from her pixie-like face by a ribbon that matched her dress. The picture was taken from above, in the dark hours of the morning... by a scout helicopter. I remember being amazed that she could even see the chopper, much less the lens of its nose-mounted targeting/surveillance system. Yet there she was, smiling for the camera after completing her first independent operation. Six kills in half as many seconds. She was incredible, my little Angelica.
Son of a...
I watch blood dribble slowly out of the fresh cut, which leads to yet another of my morning rituals: applying tissue to where I've nicked myself. It's not advisable to let your mind wander when you're wielding a blade at your own throat, even if it is just a safety razor.

that picture refers to the final scene that was used in this to the words "Just die, eh?"

3klicks wrote:In a way they both made their decisions. In the begginig Patricia tried very hard to convince Marco not to go back to any military job at all; she argued that her sallary would be enough, but Marco wanted to join. Then Marco told Patricia that he can't tell her what he does and doesn't want to talk about it, but Patricia wanted to know, that was her choice. In the end it seems their expectiations were incompatible.

You know my mom is scared. Scared that I'm going to get sent to Iraq, and her little baby is going to catch a mortar. Marco is in a much more dangerous line of work, and recovering form an injured. He got that during an accident too, imagine what the enemy will do? Right now Marco is the safe for the first time in a long time. Patricia doesn't want to worry about where she's going to see him alive again every time he leaves for work. Her not wanting him to join is more then normal, it's expected.

It's not just the constant threat of death either. Military people get deployed. You might not see your wife for months, a deployment in Iraq can be 16 months. She'll have to handle everything at home, by herself. Including the problems that arise from your deployment. Oh, and that fear of something bad happening to you goes through the roof. Lets be honest, being married to someone in the military can fucking suck.

Now your husband keeps coming home in a bad mood. He makes drinks from himself, acts dejected, all that. Then you smell the gun powered on him. Your hearts in your throat again. You stop thinking, why is it we seem to argue every other night. Suddenly it's, Oh god, what's he doing? Is he safe? Why the fuck won't he tell anything? A relationship like that has to be give, and take, or your partner will burn out on you. They'll just walk away, tired of being afraid, and upset all the time. You have to give them some. Ease their concerns about your possible death. Stop acting like an ass when you come home. Just plain old fucking talk about it.

Say, I really can't tell you much. It's hard for me though. I don't think I can walk away from this job. Heaven knows I want to, but someone is counting on me. I love you, I'm sorry I take you on this roller coaster ride that is my life. What is it I can do to help you. Shit like that is a must. Nothing suggests Marco made any attempts at talks like that. So yeah I think Patricia did all that can be expected of her to keep that relationship afloat. Marco was going through his problems. Due to the haunting nature of the job, due to the secrecy, due to a fear of intimacy, what ever; he failed to remember his relationship was a two way street. He fucked up.

3klicks wrote:(*loves Rico's expression in first panel*)

Rico is thinking: yeah, that'll bounce off.

3klicks wrote:Here's an interesting thought: the cyborgs seems to share some of their handlers character traits.

Wow, there really is a bit of truth to that isn't there. Well like father mother Handler, like cyborg.

Wileama's post

I would have to think a lot about how Marco acted, reread the manga maybe. I'm not one to talk since I have no experiences to come close to that. It's hard on both ends, but I guess if I took the time to empathise with the characters and considered the emotions involved (instead of just looking at the face value) I would see that Patricia was getting the short end of the stick.

That people can stay together under circumstances like that is a tribute to human character.

3klicks, I had a 3 hour think-about/1 hour write-about post about relationships and expectations. In the end I closed the window and said 'The Hell With It'.

I think in my personal view that Patrica was letting her (selfish) self get in the way of the relationship. In the anime of The Pasta Prince, during the lunch scene, she seemed to be too overly concerned about Marco's injury and his decisions about his future. To me it seems that all she wanted Marco for was his financial, physical and emotional support; while giving little in return. When she found him injured it was like to as if one of the 3 catagories had been shot to hell and that she was going to do something she does not like to do- support him. This theme echoes out through the whole episode and the manga. Marco was easily frustrated because here was this girlf friend who turned bitch on him. Quickly notice how all of the sudden she wanted to publish 'his' Pasta Prince Story and how someone said it was hers. Even Angie holding the book- did not know it was his story, because if it was published as "By Marco Togni", Angie would have known who that was!

Patrica won out by gaining something out of Marco in the end and is living on Book royalties that should have been his.

But Marco has a kind heart enough to let her living on with his creation, because everyone in the SWA Section 2 knows that the Pasta Prince Story was his, and they all had a hand in helping him create it. If in the least, it were to be taken to court- Marco would win due to the amount of witnesses he has on his side. If taken to the extreme- bitch would be pushing up daisies for making mega bucks on a story she stole from him.
But thats my opionion.

Dang! This is fucking confusing.

I didn't see the whole book money thing going on. On the other hand Patricia was telling Marco not to join because her sallary would be enough for the both of them (I think that was it).

You are both talking from personal experience in one form or other (am I right). Elfen, you mentioned an "ex-from hell, and Wileama I don't know wheather you have someone, but you mentioned your familly and the empathy from that is enough.

I'm not good with people to begin with, and I have no experience with a serious relationship or any situation that would come close to this, so I don't really have much of an oppinion at this point.

I'm a happily married father of two, and can safely say that Marco and Patricia's relationship broke down due to a communication snafu.

The biggest mistake Marco did was tell Patricia that he had taken up a job that involved working with children. Such a statement totally contradicted the elements that became apparent later (gunpowder on his person, for one) and probably made Patricia think he had been lying to her. What he ought to have done was tell her, that he had been reaccepted into law-enforcement - perhaps going on to reassure her that he was functioning only in a training capacity.

Personally I think your way off the mark Elfen. First with the money. Like 3klicks said Patricia says that her income with be enough to support them. If she's so worried about money, she would never say that. As for the publishing of the book. That's tougher. I think you have to look at the spirit of it though. Marco doesn't say, "That bitch she stole my story." The spirit is more that, "Hey she's sharing me with the world. It's her way of cherishing that something we had."

Further more, I get the sense she only got the wide plot arcs from Marco. She still had to write the story. Get an illustrator, and a publisher. The go through rewrites, and what not to get it published. Not easy tasks. It's a lot of effort to get something published. Besides nothing saying that she doesn't have a check put aside for Marco.

As for 'physical and emotional support,' isn't that what a marriage is? Your each others best friends. Your a shoulder your spouse can cry on. You make each other laugh. You hold each other close on cold nights. You rail at each other during your fights. That's what being commit to each other is.

It's true we don't see much of the relationship, and most of what we hear comes out of Patricia's mouth. So she could be a complete, and total bitch. I don't think that's how Aida intend it. I always saw them as the happy couple. They might have had issues, before Marco took up his job at the SWA. I think those where the case of being human. I didn't see Marco being bad, or Patricia.

I think once Marco joined the SWA he ended up in a bad place. One where he shut out people. Like I've said before, considering the relationship I don't think you could expect to Patricia to stay if she was being shut out like that.

**Edit**

Nachtsider wrote:I'm a happily married father of two, and can safely say that Marco and Patricia's relationship broke down due to a communication snafu.

The biggest mistake Marco did was tell Patricia that he had taken up a job that involved working with children. Such a statement totally contradicted the elements that became apparent later (gunpowder on his person, for one) and probably made Patricia think he had been lying to her. What he ought to have done was tell her, that he had been reaccepted into law-enforcement - perhaps going on to reassure her that he was functioning only in a training capacity.

Jinx! Anyway I'm with Nachtsider on this. Mostly. You have to understand that the SWA already has a cover story. So if his checks are sighed Social Welfare Agency Patricia is going to have questions. He has to stick to his cover story to a large degree. If he tells her much she could start to piece together what he does. Does he really want to admit to her that he's turning this little angle of a girl into a cold blooded assassin? He must be terrified that she'll see the monster he sees in the mirror. I can understand him keeping his mouth shut. Maybe not the smartest decision, but the human heart knows not of logic.

3klicks wrote:Dang! This is fucking confusing.

I didn't see the whole book money thing going on. On the other hand Patricia was telling Marco not to join because her sallary would be enough for the both of them (I think that was it).

You are both talking from personal experience in one form or other (am I right). Elfen, you mentioned an "ex-from hell, and Wileama I don't know wheather you have someone, but you mentioned your familly and the empathy from that is enough.

In my time; I've had 11 significant others. 6 were to young and bad things happened to them (when I was between 6 - 10: Moving, house fires, lukemia, etc...). Of the 5 that reamins: 1 I married and she died (was killed in a crime), 1 I went out with because she wanted to help me out during this time (The Ex-From-Hell), 2 best friends of the wife, and 1 twin sister of the wife (The Ex-From-Heaven). The Ex-From-Heaven really hated me because when I started to go out with the one I married, I accidently made a pass at the twin and... well... she let me have it on so many levels that 25 years later, I still feel it! But years after the funeral, we connected and had our own relationship, which still continues in some form today.

The Ex-From-Hell... we have a child that she hid from me; but thats not the reasons to anything. She just wanted to keep the kid away from ever knowing who I am because we can no longer get along. Well, that child grew up into a fine young lady, and she eventually sought me out. We've been playing catch up since, and her family disowned her for doing that,and I've been helping her in her college studies expenses (DAMN! Cornell Is Expensive!). Its a long story. Next time I'll gamma-ray my testicles if I should ever decide to have early-relationship sex again...

3klicks wrote:I'm not good with people to begin with, and I have no experience with a serious relationship or any situation that would come close to this, so I don't really have much of an oppinion at this point.

Give yourself time. You'll figure it out. Until then- BEWARE OF THE COYTEE TRAPS!

Wileama wrote:I think once Marco joined the SWA he ended up in a bad place. One where he shut out people. Like I've said before, considering the relationship I don't think you could expect to Patricia to stay if she was being shut out like that.

See my post above.

Nachtsider wrote:

Wileama wrote:I think once Marco joined the SWA he ended up in a bad place. One where he shut out people. Like I've said before, considering the relationship I don't think you could expect to Patricia to stay if she was being shut out like that.

See my post above.

Not as I see it. In my version of the Pasta Prince anime, Patrica was pushing Marco about his job, wanting to go see the child/children, wanting to go to his office, wanting to see the facilities, even asking coworkers as to what he really did.

That last part, when she went to Dr. Bianchi to ask about Marco's job was really the last straw. In short at that point, she did not trust Marco at all, even though she knew that he has a position in the government's system, which was stated to her early in the episode.

In the end of that episode, she said that she wanted Marco to be 'normal', and thus pushed him too hard, and that push pushed him out of their relationship. Never throughout the episode or the mangas do I see a Drunken Marco taking it out on her. On the contrary- the one scene I remember is of them at one of their places on a 'home-date' and drinking wine together. When he tries to kiss her on the cheek and hold her, she pushes him away and tries to change the subject. That alone speaks volumes.

Nachtsider wrote:See my post above.

I totally called jinx, you can't talk till someone calls your name three times. Anyway I did see your post, and made an edit to mine as quickly as I could.

As we were fellas :twisted:
Another point to add, from the Anime, is that Elsa entrusted to much on Lauro. Though this point has been said time and time again, no further proof can be found than when Henrietta tried to speak to her before the next day's mission of assassinating the police director; where Elsa said the following...



Many months later, Henrietta is putting those words to
shame in Volume 6, and she has to take critism and orders from Triela from a mission training excersise.



(The I have is a hacked version of the Japanese ones where it was subtitled.)

This is a random point, but what's with the missing eyes. Yu, seems often not to draw both eyes on characters (to save time?). I thought that was some scanlating error in mine, but I've seen several versions now that all have that.

Ever since Triela lost her eye on that fight with Pino, Things have not been the same...

ElfenMagix wrote:(The I have is a hacked version of the Japanese ones where it was subtitled.)

ah... I've been meaning to clarify that... that would be a regular fansub, right? Fansubs aren't so much 'hacked' as just recorded off Japanese TV and fitted with a subtitles track. It's about as illegal as recording... say... the Venture Brothers off of TV, adding Hebrew Farsi subtitles and shipping it to a friend in Afghanistan (as if they'd need it.. damn thing was probably bootleg'd long ago over there). If you don't have a multilanguage DVDrip .mkv of it or something, it's not so much 'hacked' as simply outdated since funimation licenced the series. I know I'm ranting about semantics, but it's been irking me, how you describe your version of the anime (It's my OCD. Makes me strange).
It looks like we don't have the same translation after all, though:
link

ElfenMagix wrote:Ever since Triela lost her eye on that fight with Pino, Things have not been the same...

Rico and 'Etta are experiencing 'sympathy eye loss'?!

:lol!:

In the final fight between Pino and Triela, Triela lost her right eye, so yeah... :lol!:

LoC978 wrote:both of these were true blunders. The man who squeezed off three shots should've either hit nothing but empty air she had just vacated, or been dropped by quick action before he could fire.

The only fault I have with Elsa about letting that guard fire thrice was the fact that she thus allowed noise to be made. Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong about her not dodging. Why bother dodging bullets when the bullets can't hurt you?

LoC978 wrote:nah, it was about 19 minutes into episode 8, where Marco was watching a video taken by a helicopter...

That video Marco was watching of Angie zapping five enemies in something like two seconds has to be one of the most awesome fight sequences in the series. Elsa in Episode Nine had nothing on Angie in her prime, and Angie was still one hell of a combatant in Episode Twelve. All those who say Angie is useless are dead wrong.

Interesting you'd think it a helicopter-taken video, LoC. I always thought it was done from some kinda UAV - a Dragon Eye, maybe, or an itty-bitty Predator drone.

ElfenMagix wrote:As we were fellas :twisted:
Another point to add, from the Anime, is that Elsa entrusted to much on Lauro. Though this point has been said time and time again, no further proof can be found than when Henrietta tried to speak to her before the next day's mission of assassinating the police director; where Elsa said the following...
(The I have is a hacked version of the Japanese ones where it was subtitled.)

I thought it was interesting that in the Japanese version, Elsa pisses off Henrietta by basically telling her that she truly loves Lauro, and that Henrietta doesn't know the meaning of the word. The English version has that gay, "There has to be more then this!" shit.

Nachtsider wrote:That video Marco was watching of Angie zapping five enemies in something like two seconds has to be one of the most awesome fight sequences in the series. Elsa in Episode Nine had nothing on Angie in her prime, and Angie was still one hell of a combatant in Episode Twelve. All those who say Angie is useless are dead wrong.

Well said my friend.

Nachtsider wrote:The only fault I have with Elsa about letting that guard fire thrice was the fact that she thus allowed noise to be made. Otherwise, I don't see anything wrong about her not dodging. Why bother dodging bullets when the bullets can't hurt you?

considering she rushed into the room firing unsuppressed 5.56mm rounds, noise was the least of her worries at that point.
...and I wouldn't say the bullets didn't hurt her. she probably needed (at least) some of the skin of her forearm replaced after that mission.

Nachtsider wrote:Interesting you'd think it a helicopter-taken video, LoC. I always thought it was done from some kinda UAV - a Dragon Eye, maybe, or an itty-bitty Predator drone.

I was going by the sound in the background. it sounded like a kiowa or a small bell 'copter. UAVs spin quicker with smaller rotors.

Stationary is key. With an aircraft you would be making these orbits of what ever you wanted to look at. I never noticed the sounds

\\plays scene

Oh yeah there it is. Sounds like a two blade rotor head. So It would probably be more of an H-1. I always though Kiowa's where four blades

Anyway I think it's two camera's. When angelica it comes around the car, and angelica smiles, it's just to low. Any helicopter would be in the trees, and whipping up dirt. This is clearly a person on the ground coming it to survey the scene close up.

Its definately 2 cameras, possibly by one of the SWA Section 2 Support Personnel. Its definately not Marco, since he has to be Angie's support and handler, and cant hold a camera and a gun at the sametime; not with his eyesight.

Even viewing the Mangas, Angie's worst seems to be better than some of the girls' best. That says something about the training Angie received from Marco.

Hi everybody! Lauro Fanatics Unite!!! ............
Hmm, don't eveyone cheer all at once now!
Yep, Lauro is my Favorite character in Gunslinger Girl.
Pity he died, I for one felt he was an intersting, mysterious and multi-faceted character. there was alot of potential for many stories that will never be. But that's ok, here's where fanfic/fanpic come to the rescue! I enjoy writing and drawing about the illfated pair in my spare time!

Anyway, I've read Lauro being described as a this or a that, and Elsa's performance picked apart and dissected. However peoples, there are two very qualified gentlemen who might disagree with your opinion of Lauro as a trainer, agent, etc, as well as deSica's performance!
Who are these two persons you may ask?
(drum roll please) Why none other than Jose and Jean!!
Turn with me if you will, to Vol.1, page 119.
Jose is talking to his brother Jean.
Jose: "They were a great fratello."
Jean: "Yeah."
These men I'm willing to bet, knew what they were talking about, wouldn't you agree?
Now let's go to the following page were Jean can't believe
Jose has quite smoking for the sake of his partner.
Jean: "You're unbeliveable". "You're investing alot in her...in that aspect, Lauro managed quite well."
Jose: "Yeah...That's right."
So Lauro was in my humble view neither incompetent, or even mean for that matter, he simply did not feel he should invest any kind of emotional effort on what he believed was more machine than human being. that's why I believe he told Jose not to confuse cyborgs with colleagues. Also I suspect Lauro might have had bigger personal problems than to worry about treating his cyborg nice. I may be dead wrong here, but the brief conversation he had with jose might have indicated that he was in some sort of trouble! He said he was going to need money...Hmm.. I wonder why? Could he have been involved with some unsavory types? He did say something to the effect of having all kinds of connections. Maybe he got in over his head! A possible hint of this might be the statement by Lauro that he knew they, (the cyborgs girls) had it hard, but so did they! What were you trying to say Lauro? Jose naturally understood this to mean that the job of taking care of their younger partners was not easly, but I have the feeling Lauro meant that if the cyborgs come with problems, well so did he!
I dunno, I could be right or maybe waaaay of base.
Again those little tid bits will probably be never explored.
My personal view of the Lauro/Elsa story is that Mr.Aida
wanted to illustrate that a good balance must be kept.
Train the cyborg to be a great weapon, but DO NOT neglect the human side, as the title says: The Girl has a mechanical body. However, she is still an adolescent child.
Lauro helped to create Elsa the Weapon, but would not or was incapable of seeing the child within. I wonder if Lauro ever conversed with the conditioning doctors or if he simply chatted with Jean who perhaps, upon witnessing Rico's almost mindless obedience, might have cemented the notion that any humanity that might have existed at one time, was now gone.
Particularly in light his superior's, own view that these 'little sisters' were simply tools to be used and discarded after they were used up. Who would know better than the man who gave him the job? Why would there be any reason to think otherwise? I really don't think of Lauro as a mean guy, just someone who perhaps might have not thought there was any reason to worry about this very devoted little cyborg. For all we know, there might very well have been disturbing accounts in Elsa's file, but to paraphrase what Lauro told Jose during their mission, that's what the conditioning was for!
Thanks for reading my long post and I hope I don't get any death threats in the mail for standing up for Lauro!!
He da Man!

you pretty much debunked your own statements there, bud...

Argenrador44xx wrote:Train the cyborg to be a great weapon, but DO NOT neglect the human side

-Even Jean, with all his personal problems, realized that. We're all entitled to our opinions, though.
It's just my opinion that Lauro's willful ignorance of Elsa's humanity makes him a complete douchebag.
**edit** ...and the fact that he never seemed to take part directly in operations. Like he didn't wanna dirty his hands or something.

LoC978 wrote:...Like he didn't wanna dirty his hands or something.

HEY, THATS MY LINE! :lol!:

Lauro is an interesting character, as was Elsa. But it was a shame to kill them off like that, but there would not be a story without it.

Lauro did neglect Elsa's emotional and mental side, more like abused it. He also did not seem to want to get involved in the missions portrayed in the amine. In the manga, Chapter 2, page 51 it says "The Elsa-Lauro team is getting the perp ready." It says the same thing in Episode 3- "Ragazzo", in the Japanese voice- English transcribed one, but not in the American version.

This says that the Elsa-Lauro Fratello has been around for quite some time, having done many missions in the least. This put to question, when did Elsa started to break down?

In Vol. 2, Chapter 11, around Page 170 (after the page with the knife fight that Angie stopped) of the manga, there are 2 different cyborgs in action. The closer one seems to be Henrietta, but the further one about to enter the building could either be a young Triela or Elsa. Triela is the tallest girl of the Type 1 group; Elsa is somewhere between Cleas and Angie's height. This 'mystery cyborg' seems to fit Elsa's size. If that is Elsa, that would mean that she has been around for a long time- comparitively, possible at the time Ricco/Henrietta came in or even before.

I agree but the way Elsa fights and does things falls on the handler's sholders. It's Lauro's responsibility to make sure she does her job right. I say Elsa's a good cyborg but she's not as careful or accurate because she doesn't get that love and affection she so desprtly wants from Lauro. (As you can see when she's trying to do the sniper shot with Henrietta...)

Triela wrote:I agree but the way Elsa fights and does things falls on the handler's sholders. It's Lauro's responsibility to make sure she does her job right. I say Elsa's a good cyborg but she's not as careful or accurate because she doesn't get that love and affection she so desprtly wants from Lauro. (As you can see when she's trying to do the sniper shot with Henrietta...)

Actually, in that episode, two things happens.
1- Elsa just about brags about Lauro to Henrietta. She 'brags' because she is in deep towards him that she would not know how to get out on her own.
2- During the shared mission- Elsa notices Jose's interaction with Henrietta and realizes...

-first in the car, as she looks into the rearview mirror and sees Henrietta talking with Jose.

-then at the sniper's nest, she sees Jose is interacting with Henrietta, giving her last minute detailed instructions as to what is expected of her.

In both occassions, she sees their closeness and she tries to interact with Lauro but is denied.

The icing on the cake was when Lauro goes off on her, and orders Elsa to get out and Jose to be the sniper. I think that this was a last second ploy on his part as to not to get both their hands dirty, but it backfires as Elsa goes into an emotional downward spiral which ends in her killing him and then herself.

ElfenMagix wrote:This says that the Elsa-Lauro Fratello has been around for quite some time, having done many missions in the least.

The official Gunslinger Girl site mentions that Elsa was the newest SWA girl at the time of her appearance in Episode Nine.

ElfenMagix wrote:This put to question, when did Elsa started to break down?

right after she saw how Giuseppe treats 'Etta, is my guess. Something about the realization that those two actually have a relationship of sorts, that 'Etta had some small part of what she wanted. Then she tested the waters with Lauro, he gave her the cold shoulder, and she got jealous... then she got depressed. And then...

LoC978 wrote:And then...

Beware The Green Eyed Monster...
Funny-didn't Elsa have green eyes?

Argenrador44xx wrote:Jose: "They were a great fratello."
Jean: "Yeah."

This could be the truth. However you have to look at the qualifiers. Was it that he seemed to provided excellent training? Was it, because they always got the job done? Some people just prefer not to speak ill of the dead.

Argenrador44xx wrote:He said he was going to need money...Hmm.. I wonder why? Could he have been involved with some unsavory types? He did say something to the effect of having all kinds of connections. Maybe he got in over his head!

I agree that is certainly one possibility. However it's possible for you to lose your military clearance over personal finance. Get to deep into debt, and selling secrets becomes too appealing. So the agency would have been hesitant to hire someone like that, no matter what his qualifications.

I think it's more likely that Lauro was just greedy for money, and selfishly saw Elsa merely as a means to that end. My copy of the anime has him half-jokingly answer Giuseppe's question as to why he signed up with the Agency with "I am a poor man."

Nachtsider wrote:I think it's more likely that Lauro was just greedy for money, and selfishly saw Elsa merely as a means to that end. My copy of the anime has him half-jokingly answer Giuseppe's question as to why he signed up with the Agency with "I am a poor man."

In my transcripted copy, Lauro says, "Because they pay well. I'm going to need some money soon."

In seeing the episodes many times over and over again, it seems to me that there is more to this Elsa/Lauro thing than meets the eye.

I agree we're all entitled to our opinions.
After all, while Lauro the 'D@#$%-bag '
was admitting to Jose that the he knew the cyborgs have it hard, good 'ol Jean was busy smacking poor Rico in the mouth hard enough to draw blood!
Can you just feel the love? Rico sure did!
Yep, he's got personal problems, you got that right!
If Lauro is worthy of name calling, then let it rip for Mister Sensitivity: Jean!
You're right, Lauro willfully obeyed his boss's fine example but not to the extent of rubbing out one of their own! Isn't that what was implied of poor Raballo?
'Hit and run', yeah. Right.
Way to go, Mr. Smoothie! Oh yeah Mister J, you B The Man!
Ok, I know Jean wasn't physically abusing Rico at the same time Lauro was admitting that it must be hard for the cyborgs, I was just making a point of comparison.
It's important to stress that Jean is the one who likes to inform his brother that it's better to keep a 'tighter leash' on Henrietta as if she were a dog!
Real humanitarian, this Jean character.
A natural recipient of the Mother Teresa Award, lol!
Actually he did start to come around towards Rico, as illustrated in the later issues, which only serves to demonstrate why I feel it was a shame to let an interesting character like Lauro croak.
Given time and under the right circumstances, Lauro could have come around, and that my fellow Gunslinger Girl fans, would have made for a good story. I mean if Jean can do it, why not Lauro?
What a coinkydink, that's what I sometimes do in my illustrated fanfics! I enjoy imagining what circumstances could have taken place that would have made Lauro see Elsa as a real person, defying Jean's stance on the the treatment of cyborgs. How ironic it would be to imagine him going from indifferent to just the opposite!
Instead of letting her do all the fighting, eventually the pendulum would swing the other way as Lauro would go from one extreme to the other! Eventually he'd would not want her to risk Elsa getting hurt because he would take the notion of being a 'brother' all too seriously and end up taking a bullet for her instead! Elsa's reaction? Oh sure, she'd off herself but not before 'venting' a bit on the Agency she would hold responsible for her master's demise!
Of course, before he could come to appreciate her, there would have to be a lot that'll happen along the way....
For example in one of my fanfics, there's deSica getting ready to ventilate poor Lauro when all of a sudden the same thing that happened to Herietta, occurs to Elsa as well!
Her gun jams! *Click* *click* is the only sound that can be heard in this alternate multiverse. Lauro hears that unmistakable sound and turns to find his devilish little cyborg trying to give him a doozy of a headache! His reaction?
Well lemme put it THIS way; Jeans mistreatment of Giddy Rico
would pale in comparison!
As Elsa freaks and freezes up, Lauro's moment of disbelief turns into rage as this he realizes that this little freak of a child was going to do to him what he has been teaching her to do to unto others!
It would seem at this point that nothing on this earth could possibly make Lauro end up caring for her, but I can picture events that he could never have foreseen and totally outside of his control take place that would eventually make even him reconsider what it means to be forced to care for someone to the point of obsession!
That's what I like about fanfic/art, there's no limit to what can take
place....

ElfenMagix wrote:In my transcripted copy, Lauro says, "Because they pay well. I'm going to need some money soon."

In seeing the episodes many times over and over again, it seems to me that there is more to this Elsa/Lauro thing than meets the eye.

Perhaps Lauro simply meant that he had his eye on a new car or something.

Argenrador44xx wrote:Ok, I know Jean wasn't physically abusing Rico at the same time Lauro was admitting that it must be hard for the cyborgs, I was just making a point of comparison.

actually, he may very well have been. But at least he wasn't completely ignoring her.

Argenrador44xx wrote:Real humanitarian, this Jean character.

sarcasm noted.
[playing along mode]I should hope not. he's in the business of killing.[/playing along mode]

Argenrador44xx wrote:Given time and under the right circumstances, Lauro could have come around, and that my fellow Gunslinger Girl fans, would have made for a good story. I mean if Jean can do it, why not Lauro?

While possible, it would be far less likely than what Jean did. Lauro was willfully ignorant of Elsa's feelings. He treated her like a thing. The way I see it, Jean treated Rico like a raw trainee: while he would sometimes talk about her as if she wasn't there, he wouldn't completely ignore any concerns she might voice.

The fanfic possibility of Elsa's gun jamming

...That may have actually woken him up... though I find it more likely that he would draw his own gun (if he was armed) and empty a mag into her.
your way is better story material, though.

Cold though Jean may have appeared, he could actually do things like have dinner with Rico, and dole out advice to people like Raballo regarding being less hard on their cyborgs. I'm not sure if you can call that a heartless bastard, and doubt Lauro could have done anything approaching what Jean did.

LoC978 wrote:That may have actually woken him up... though I find it more likely that he would draw his own gun (if he was armed) and empty a mag into her.

Not that normal bullets would have done much - if any - damage.

This begs the following question - does each handler carry around a gun loaded with AP rounds just in case their cyborg goes beserk?

Nachtsider wrote:Not that normal bullets would have done much - if any - damage.

... that's still not certain... and, regardless of the 'cyborg armor' debate, it would still depend on where he hit her.

Nachtsider wrote:does each handler carry around a gun loaded with AP rounds just in case their cyborg goes beserk?

I doubt it's for that reason, but Giuseppe carries a pistol that fires SS190 rounds (5.7x28mm, AP)

"Perhaps Lauro simply meant that he had his eye on a new car or something"
Hey, I think you hit the Lauro oops, the nail right on the head! That's it! Anything for a Vette, I always say! 8)
True Lauro thought of Elsa as a thing and Jean thought of Rico as a tool.
Thing, tool, it's all good! lol!
..."doubt Lauro could have done anything approaching what Jean did". Yeah like waste poor Raballo! lol :twisted:
I don't doubt Jean would tell Raballo how to handle his own tool,
(uh, ok that did not come out right) :roll:
but it would have been strickly for the purpose of treating the Agency's investment more effciently, I mean he did dust the guy later on... Claes and Henrietta almost duked it out at one point but wouldn't ya know it, Kind hearted Jean came to the rescue by flushing their minds despite his own brother's protests.
I get a warm and fuzzy feeling just thinking about this guy.
Look bottom line, Lauro took his cues from his employer who I'm sure made it crystal clear Elsa deSica was to be used as a
killing machine. If that's the message you get from the boss then Lauro cannot be anyworse the one who is telling him she is to be used and discarded. This is what he did, period.
Either that or he was a reaaaaaal meanie but then again that's why million of Lauro diehards root for him! Yay! :suspect:
lol

LoC978 wrote:... that's still not certain... and, regardless of the 'cyborg armor' debate, it would still depend on where he hit her.

I still say that if Rico can take a headshot without flinching... you know the drill.

Argenrador44xx wrote:Either that or he was a reaaaaaal meanie but then again that's why million of Lauro diehards root for him! Yay! :suspect:
lol

I'm looking very hard for this alleged fanclub, Rador, but can't seem to locate it anywhere...

LoC978 wrote:

The fanfic possibility of Elsa's gun jamming

...That may have actually woken him up... though I find it more likely that he would draw his own gun (if he was armed) and empty a mag into her.
your way is better story material, though.

Most guns jam AFTER a shot has been fired, due to a poorly ejected round; which is usually from improper handling and care of the gun in question.

Argenrador44xx wrote:I get a warm and fuzzy feeling just thinking about this guy.

... that's like getting a warm and fuzzy feeling from thinking about Jason Bourne...
not that I'm judging based on sexual preference...

Argenrador44xx wrote:Look bottom line, Lauro took his cues from his employer who I'm sure made it crystal clear Elsa deSica was to be used as a killing machine. If that's the message you get from the boss then Lauro cannot be anyworse the one who is telling him she is to be used and discarded. This is what he did, period.

You're saying he followed a suggestion from his boss without thinking it through for himself. That makes for the worst kind of soldier/assassin/spy. When you go into a job that involves killing in combat, you can't approach it like a regular, day-in-day-out grind of a job. That shit'll get ya killed. As Lauro proved.

Nachtsider wrote:

Argenrador44xx wrote:Either that or he was a reaaaaaal meanie but then again that's why million of Lauro diehards root for him! Yay! :suspect:
lol

I'm looking very hard for this alleged fanclub, Rador, but can't seem to locate it.

dude, sarcasm meter...

ElfenMagix wrote:Most guns jam AFTER a shot has been fired, due to a poorly ejected round; which is usually from improper handling and care of the gun in question.

True. But what if it gave her the old 'pop and no kick' of a dud round? Happened to me with an M16 once.

LoC978 wrote:

ElfenMagix wrote:Most guns jam AFTER a shot has been fired, due to a poorly ejected round; which is usually from improper handling and care of the gun in question.

True. But what if it gave her the old 'pop and no kick' of a dud round? Happened to me with an M16 once.

Ah... there's the rub.

Yeah, the old 'pop and no kick'. Actually I don't know a pop and no kick from a snap crackle pop! Who knows, maybe that kid wuz was so nervous at the thought of doing Lauro that her customary careful treatment of her gun was neglected. After all, all bets where off after he referred to her as useless. She acted like her world had collapsed.
If just witnessing affection from Jose to Herietta made her unreliable, then she must have been a mental mess as she prepared for destroying her reason for living. I can imagine her hands shaking, sweating
(if that's possible for them) trying to keep it together to do what just a few days earlier would have seemed incomprehensible.
Although I admit in the video she looked cool as a mechanical cucumber.
But who really knows?
Remember Henrietta's trip to the doctor where she expressed concern for not having killed a lot of people in one month as opposed to the other?
How many agents looked on without blinking an eye while this poor child was worried about not pleasing her handler by not murdering enough of the opposition?
Naw, I think most of the Agency's members thought it through and
came to the conclusion that using kids by taking away their identity, wiping away any memories they may have held dear and using them to kill indiscriminately accepted among them.
In light of knowing that, who except Raballo can be called innocent? He called a spade a spade and didn't try to justify making these kids murderers by saying well, at least they are alive now! Wooopee!
They all knew the score when they joined a covert mission that employed using kids as killers. Even Jose admitted to an agent of Section One that he knew he was using Henrietta.
They thought it through considered what was being done and thought oh well too bad, soooo sad!

Rador wrote:Yeah, the old 'pop and no kick'. Actually I don't know a pop and no kick from a snap crackle pop!

[FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR MODE]It's when a round has a defect that causes it not to work properly. Generally, instead of firing, the primer in the round goes off without causing the powder in the casing to explode. This makes a small 'pop' sound, and since the round didn't fire, there was no weapon recoil, otherwise known as 'kick'.

Rador wrote:Who knows, maybe that kid wuz was so nervous at the thought of doing Lauro that her customary careful treatment of her gun was neglected.

... so the weapon would have a bunch of carbon buildup from firing at the range that she didn't clean out of it. The weapon would still fire a chambered round, but would (possibly) jam when trying to chamber the next round.[/FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR MODE]
... that would have actually made a really good explaination for Sasahara's AU fic... the forgetful double-tap thing always struck me as a bit 'plot-device-y'.

Rador wrote:Remember Henrietta's trip to the doctor where she expressed concern for not having killed a lot of people in one month as opposed to the other?
How many agents looked on without blinking an eye while this poor child was worried about not pleasing her handler by not murdering enough of the opposition?
Naw, I think most of the Agency's members thought it through and
came to the conclusion that using kids by taking away their identity, wiping away any memories they may have held dear and using them to kill indiscriminately accepted among them.

No offense meant, but I don't think you're terribly familiar with the mindset of special ops/assasassin types. They can't afford the luxury of seeing the girls as children. They don't have to see them as mere weapons, either, though. They're treated more like young, naive, extremely talented comrades-in-arms. Basically akin to young adults who still need some supervision at work.

Rador wrote:In light of knowing that, who except Raballo can be called innocent? He called a spade a spade and didn't try to justify making these kids murderers by saying well, at least they are alive now! Wooopee!

even Raballo was far from innocent. He knew the score when signing up, but wasn't emotionally prepared to deal with what he had to do. After awhile, he felt he had to repent... and then Jean just did his job, as always.

Rador wrote:Even Jose admitted to an agent of Section One that he knew he was using Henrietta.

he was, as you put it, 'calling a spade a spade'. Giuseppe has few illusions, at least cerebrally. Emotionally is another matter.

Welcome to the forum Rador. You've awakened me from my dreamy slumber across the sea; and I've travelled through the time zones to offer a reply. (Please note the reply is to your posts only and no personal offence is intended at any point.)

- Lauro/Elsa = "great fratello": I think that falls under the "don't badmouth the dead" category (as Wileama mentioned), also this would be thanks to Elsa and not Lauro. (this was also mentioned I think.)
- Whatever trouble Lauro was in I seriously doubt he lost his familly like Jean and Jose. I would side with the new car theory.
- WHat do you mean he was misguided? He has common sense like everyone else. In the world you make a bad judgement you pay for it. Being a bad person is not just doing bad things because you want to, if you can't tell what is good and what is bad, then (if you had an upbringing that was not extremely unnatural and are part of society) that makes you a bad person. If the character trait that makes you enjoy what is bad/evil makes you bad, then so does the trait of not being able to tell right from wrong. Lauro screwed up moraly. He's not a child; the responsibility is his.
- I won't repeat everything I've said about Jean and Lauro, but sumarising greatly, if you look at the big picture, there is no comparison between them. (and that's not in Lauro's favour)
* You said yourself that you need balance in this job. If there is anyne who has balance it is Jean. Lauro is not balanced he's tipped straight down the not caring side.
* I think way to much is taken on face value. Take Henrietta/Jose, for example. Many people cite Jose as a perfect example of a handler, but that's just foolish. If spending time with a kid and buying him stuff was enough to be a good parent there would be a lot more good parents out there. First of all Jose is selfish. He is satisfying his need to replace his dead sister. He is using Henrietta not onlyu professionally, but also personally. Second, while he takes this comfort from her, he makes her desire real contact with him. So he tempts her with face-value kindness and gifts, but refuses her any real display of affection. Only recently has he been able to do this and only after Dr. Bianhci scolded him.
If you have two parents, one gives his child lots of toys and allows her to do what she wants, and the other is stearn with his and teaches her, which is better? Jose neglected Henriettas training (increasing the chance that she will be killed in battle) and practically didn't respond when she put a jammed gun up to her face.
As, for Lauro (if missions are any indicator) he spends no time whatsoever training Elsa and if he did he had her do it herself.
* If you want to compare further you have to start looking at the subjective side. Rico is in a good mental state. Hell, she's happy most of the time. Both girls received the same dose of conditioning, but Jean is a lot wiser then Lauro. He provides the contact with a parental figure that any child needs, instructs her as best he can, and cares for her (in the physical sense, and maybe otherwise) even if it is as a tool.
You might say that Rico is "supposed" to feel worse, because she's "treated worse", but first of all she is not and second of all it doesn't make sense to tell people if they should be happy or not, or that they are being treated well or poorely, that's really only for them to feel and decide.
* In general, what I'm trying to say is, that Henrietta getting gifts and Rico being smacked are treated as the main or even only elements of the situation. In reality, I think, they are not only one of many factors, but are also not the most significant. As for Lauro, I think he is a rich character to explor as far as fan-fiction is concerned, but it will be very hard for anyone to convince me that he's not a complete bastard.
[If you want my full take on Jean you'll have to read other posts (mainly "When Jean Hit Rico" and others (can't remember))]


[edit] p.s. Illustrated fanfics are an interesting idea, haven't seen any before, can you post a link?

To Argenrador44xx:

I wish I could have gotten to you before you reopened this can of worms. We've gone round and round on these subjects many times in the past and take it from a man who's been there - No one is going to change their minds.

Here's my ultra-quick summation:

1. The Agency is wrong for what they do to children.
2. Jean is wrong for physically abusing Rico.
3. Jose's definitely not the most efficient handler, but he's the best big brother.
3. Lauro is a bastard.

If you want a further explanation, then do as 3klicks said and go back to one of the old threads. We're all just repeating ourselves here.

3klicks wrote:p.s. Illustrated fanfics are an interesting idea, haven't seen any before, can you post a link?

I've actually done quite a few illustrations for my fanfics - you can find them at my art page. If - and I stress the word 'if' - my fanfics were ever made canon at any point in time, I would only permit them to be published in prose format, accompanied by illustrations.

Danjo3 wrote:2. Jean is wrong for physically abusing Rico.

I'd like to tweak this a little - "Jean is heavy-handed with disciplining Rico, and is wrong for doing so. However, he is not the kind of guy who abuses someone for the hell of it."

Danjo3 wrote:3. Jose's definitely not the most efficient handler, but he's the best big brother.

I have the feeling that we should consider Bernado as one of the most efficient handlers - that outgoing, jovial man doesn't appear to be undergoing any of the problems that the others face, and Beatrice seems to do her job quite well.

Nachtsider wrote:I have the feeling that we should consider Bernado as one of the most efficient handlers - that outgoing, jovial man doesn't appear to be undergoing any of the problems that the others face, and Beatrice seems to do her job quite well.

It's too bad we don't know more about him (and the way things are going, we probably never will). It would be pretty cool to find out that out of everyone, he's managed to find the perfect balance between handler and brother.

Maybe having a protegee with all the personality of a stump helps loads.

Hi everybody! Hey, first just wanna say thanks for all the cool, interesting replies I've gotten for my views of the anti-hero, Lauro!
I think he's one the coolest characters out there, I know most don't share my way of seeing him, but that's cool!
I'm impressed by how everybody is very sure of their points of view, including yours truly! I disagree with the bulk of them, they seemed flawed as the replies fail in my humble opinion to make more sense than what I originally posted, but then again who says we have to change anyone's mind here? We're expressing out views and it's really fun to read who thinks what and why. Also the stories are really fun to read and the art flat out ROCKS! Sure I like some more than others, but they all have their own appeal.
I can't help but feel that there such a great collection of knowledgeable and talented people here that it's just a matter of time before someone published their own original work, and may it be an awesome success!

*looks sheepish* hi. thanks for joinin' us here, Argenrador. you certainly do have some interesting views on everybody's ol' p...*coughpunchingbagcough* ...pal Lauro. I agree with you that the Croce brothers calling the Elsa/Lauro fratello 'great' doesn't jive well with him being a complete douchebag (respect for the dead aside)... but my mind justifies that as them knowing him mostly from his training methods and service record... and I put responsibility for his good service record on Elsa's shoulders. ... ... [/debate mode] (damn thing sneaks up on me sometimes)...
Aaaanyway... enjoy the art/scans(which I'm getting back to soon, life is currently having its way with me)/stories/debates/random humor.