Field Repairs on Cyborgs

There's a legit cyborg program out there, so the girls can use that as a cover if need be. For instance when going through an airport security scanner or being wounded and taken to hospital. In the latter case a 'specialist' cyborg doctor (who of course would be Section 2) would be flown out to treat such a case after advising the locals over the phone on how to stabilize her until he arrives.

Odon wrote:There's a legit cyborg program out there, so the girls can use that as a cover if need be. For instance when going through an airport security scanner or being wounded and taken to hospital. In the latter case a 'specialist' cyborg doctor (who of course would be Section 2) would be flown out to treat such a case after advising the locals over the phone on how to stabilize her until he arrives.

Interesting concept, but I think flawed.

Firstly, even if there is a legitimate cyborg programme out there, it's still an irregularity people will notice and remember. It's just too unusual... doubly so in a hospital. While in some cases that's possibly better than a dead cyborg, in many cases it is not. Without wanting to sound heartless, but in the big picture (particularly operating internationally) you would often be far better off with a dead cyborg whose remains have been extracted than a live and injured one in the hands of some rival party whom knows what she is...

...Which brings me to what I think is the major flaw: is that, again particularly in the case of medical assistance, the theory works under the assumption that everyone is a nice person who wants to help. Call me a cynic, but I tend not to believe the world works that way, particularly when there's a chance to get ahead. Again, even if there is a 100% above the board cybernetics programme going on with published, peer reviewed journal articles, media coverage and the like, I'm sure there are plenty of organisations and governments who would love to pull one of those cyborgs apart to see what made them tick... not to mention some governments whom may have been, uhh, lets say frozen out of certain types of research for various reasons...

...and God help you should someone have heard the rumours of the super-advanced Italian cyborgs and is bright enough to put two and two together. Those rumours by later in the manga already seem to be spreading through the Italian underworld, and any government spy agency with it's ear half way to the ground would likely have heard them by now... if it were me running the show I certainly would. Assuming the legitimate cyborg programme you talk of isn't a front for the SWA, as soon as they figured out the girl in question was not from their stable they would be down to check it out as well... all it would take is one phonecall asking "is this one of yours?", and even if no-one makes the call, a "cyborg" is unusual enough that eventually its going to get noticed, and then the hunt is on.

Short version is, I think cyborg cover once you leave Italy's borders is a bit of an all-or-nothing gig.

In terms of my own writing, is that one of J+M's greatest protections is that so far, no-one is really expecting to see cyborgs operating outside Italy, so the competition is not looking so hard... it doesn't hurt that they come across as British rather than Italian either. Start eroding that, and their job becomes a lot more difficult: especially if a "legitimate cyborg" crosses the border, then something happens, and the pattern repeats.

This does bring up a possibly terrifying question: if Monty were ever to be critically injured in a manner that would make it effectively impossible to move her, would Jethro be forced to execute her and dismember the remains for later retrieval?

El Conservatore wrote:This does bring up a possibly terrifying question: if Monty were ever to be critically injured in a manner that would make it effectively impossible to move her, would Jethro be forced to execute her and dismember the remains for later retrieval?

Well, it certainly wouldn't be option A...

Should it come down to it, and should it only be her injuries preventing her from being moved, I think Jethro would still try to get her out: he would far prefer her to die trying than give up early. At the end of the day I don't think Monty would particularly like to die either, and despite appearances she's pretty tough: so I think she would prefer he try to get her out as well.

That said: I doubt either would want to go running to a regular hospital with no Italian control of it for her... and there is a point where yes, the hard decision would have to be made: though I doubt Jethro would be happy about it and it would likely be Monty whom eventually pushed to make the pragmatic choice.

Odon wrote:There's a legit cyborg program out there, so the girls can use that as a cover if need be. For instance when going through an airport security scanner or being wounded and taken to hospital. In the latter case a 'specialist' cyborg doctor (who of course would be Section 2) would be flown out to treat such a case after advising the locals over the phone on how to stabilize her until he arrives.

In my first story, that is what I did; through Air Italia, they were able to get on/off flights without going through airport security. Furthermore, the gurney Rachel was on was simply driven by ambulance right into the cargo hold and secured in the belly of the plane. Simply put - no questions were asked.

Alfisti wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:This does bring up a possibly terrifying question: if Monty were ever to be critically injured in a manner that would make it effectively impossible to move her, would Jethro be forced to execute her and dismember the remains for later retrieval?

Well, it certainly wouldn't be option A...

Should it come down to it, and should it only be her injuries preventing her from being moved, I think Jethro would still try to get her out: he would far prefer her to die trying than give up early. At the end of the day I don't think Monty would particularly like to die either, and despite appearances she's pretty tough: so I think she would prefer he try to get her out as well.

That said: I doubt either would want to go running to a regular hospital with no Italian control of it for her... and there is a point where yes, the hard decision would have to be made: though I doubt Jethro would be happy about it and it would likely be Monty whom eventually pushed to make the pragmatic choice.

Unless Monty gets a .50 cal to the head from an M107, I seriously doubt it. I'm sure that the SWA medical team has associates around the world and can easily get to where Monty and Jethro are in under a few hours in case there is an emergency. Upon entering a hospital, what paper work Jethro or Monty has to show will invoke such actions from the medical staff as if their own national leader was brought in after an assassination attempt and only a select few will have access to them until the SWA is brought in.

Thats how I figure it...

ElfenMagix wrote:Unless Monty gets a .50 cal to the head from an M107, I seriously doubt it. I'm sure that the SWA medical team has associates around the world and can easily get to where Monty and Jethro are in under a few hours in case there is an emergency. Upon entering a hospital, what paper work Jethro or Monty has to show will invoke such actions from the medical staff as if their own national leader was brought in after an assassination attempt and only a select few will have access to them until the SWA is brought in.

Thats how I figure it...

I think my own take on the world GsG operates in is a somewhat less friendly one than what most write. Whilst the SWA doctors seem to publish the odd journal article/give seminars at conferences resulting from their research, I doubt they ever refer to the cyborg programme itself directly, rather to their own field of specialisation which could be an independent research topic. Some bright spark in an agency or corporation somewhere might eventually put two and two together based on the medical advances coming out of Italy, but it's not something I would see the SWA or Italian government wanting to make public on its own. While I'm sure there are plenty of international doctors aware of the SWA itself as a charitable organisation (it would, afterall, be an important feed line for possible useable cases), I doubt any would be aware of its true nature or be able to operate on a cyborg; and any that did would probably need to be killed later or drafted into the organisation.

There is no such thing as a "friend" in international politics (at least from where I'm writing, your mileage may vary).

As for J+M: flashing government paperwork to bypass security is not really an option for them. They do bad things in places they're not supposed to be, and work hard to disassociate themselves from the Italians (partly to help Italy's own deniability, mostly because by not being Italian they are less likely to be suspected as a fratello pair by anyone who may have heard the rumours). The moment they step off campus they don't exist, they don't work for the government, and they're going to need to get by on their own mettle. Flashing paperwork is fine for those operating inside Italy's borders, or making brief trips to or from it... but for J+M it would draw too much attention and give people too much of a chance to notice a pattern (and again, deniability).

Operating out-of-country is going to leave you to your own devices. You can't just flash your papers around and draw attention like Alfisti said. In the event of a serious injury to a cyborg. I feel the best course of action might be to go to the nearest Italian Embassy. Those would be Italian controlled, an embassy is the extension of the country by international law, and would be able to provide assistance for getting a cyborg out of the country they're in and to a SWA facility. As long as the cyborg doesn't run out of blood before then or suffer some other complication of the wound, or the wound itself (collapsed lung, brain swelling, organ failure, ect.).

That wouldn't always be feasible though. In a large country such as Russia, Canada, United States, China ect. transport may not be optional for that (the body only has so much blood).

Bringing up a question in my mind. What sort of training would they instill in a Handler to deal with a situation in which his (or her) cyborg is critically wounded? What kind of medical training do you guys think they would have in dealing with such a situation? And what equipment might they have with them to treat such an injury, in or out of Italy?

Well, seeing as every handler is either ex-military or ex-polizia/guardia/carabinieri, they have to have basic first aid down. This very strongly makes it difficult for certain patchwork fratelli, as analysts probably don't have that training. That being said, it's possible and quite likely that all cyborgs know basic first aid via conditioning/hypnosis/whateverthehellitis.

Basic handler and cyborg responses likely center on stabilizing the victim first, followed by an assessment of damage dealt, followed by a distress signal to Rome. Should it be something that can't be hidden or dealt with to allow travel back to Rome directly, the best response would be a rescue mission by another fratello equipped with appropriate resources. Should that fail, either making for the nearest Italian Embassy or getting transportation to an extraction point, both by clandestine means, is the priority. If THAT is impossible, then the fratello has three options. The first is to kill the cyborg and incinerate the remains, allowing the handler to return to Rome for debriefing and reassignment. The second is to dismember the cyborg (somehow) and incinerate the limbs, allowing for recovery of the cyborg unit after transportation by clandestine means allows the extraction of handler and cyborg. A third possibility that involves being temporarily decommissioned from the SWA is to create the illusion of a father/daughter or brother/sister relationship and put down roots in the area until a more favourable extraction window appears. However, the problem with the third option is that the cyborg is probably wounded severely enough that the handler would probably have to care for her continuously and somehow keep others from finding out about the shot-up girl in the back room.

In terms of equipment, not much. Whatever you can purchase or scrounge, I suppose. That being said, mission loadouts likely differ depending on the mission, so a long term recon mission will have medical supplies, conditioning meds, etc., whereas an assassination will only bring enough to stabilize the cyborg for surgery in Rome.

I would think that, and this is just a guess, the limbs and such would have some sort of self preservation system.

For instance a cyborg takes a round that severs a limb. The limb reacts by cutting the circulation to the limb to save the cyborg and buy them time for treatment.

Also since they are cybernetic it would make sense to train the handlers to be able to do some "field maintenance" to help stabilize their cyborg even further. It would make sense to have some kind of training in that regard as we are dealing with cybernetic parts and are bound to internally be different from organic limbs and such.

Further medical training may be a good investment as well.

Thoughts?

Both make sense, though I'm not as confident regards the self preservation system. It seems more logical to invest in artificial platelet technology that clots up more rapidly and more densely than human platelets when they encounter a wound. There's a technology that Jawjuh Tech is investigating that follows those lines, although it's more of a spray on or inject in thing at the moment.

El Conservatore wrote:A third possibility that involves being temporarily decommissioned from the SWA is to create the illusion of a father/daughter or brother/sister relationship and put down roots in the area until a more favourable extraction window appears. However, the problem with the third option is that the cyborg is probably wounded severely enough that the handler would probably have to care for her continuously and somehow keep others from finding out about the shot-up girl in the back room.

Not to mention the SWA would still need to supply them conditioning drug by one means or another.

Running to an embassy is one option... though taken from J+M's perspective it sort of again torpedoes their "we're not Italian" story. Cover wise, if they were to run to any embassy for help it should be the British one, which is just as useless to them. Another option would be an AISE facility, be it safehouse or station. Again, not perfect for J+M but more paletable than an embassy.

As to what's carried/what training is given: I think El's got it that it would vary depending on mission and fratelli. A fratello going into a situation where they're likely to get shot up, or slated for more combat oriented roles would probably have more training/more equipment (or, most likely, have help close at hand) than one in an espionage role. Those away for awhile would need a supply of the conditioning drug - one of my mates is diabetic, and having traveled with him I can't help but think it would make a good cover for the cyborg's meds: because most people at things like airport security just take one look at the box marked "diabetic" and cease caring. As to emergency supplies... well again, J+M I don't picture carring much more than a fairly comprehensive first-aid kit, if the damage is bad enough to start needing cyborg-specific things to repair them it's probably beyond first aid anyway... and again it's also safer not to carry specialist or unusual equipment.

That said: Jethro has been known to patch Monty up with superglue and duct tape before.

Now there's a thought. Could you superglue your cyborg together, patch the area with duct-tape and more superglue, gesso (modern acrylic gesso for canvas paintings, as there's apparently a variety of gessos) the duct tape, then apply foundation over it to create the semblance of a whole person? Hell, could you even use Bondo or Epoxy Resin to fill in large chunks and then paint/foundation over it?

PolosElite23 wrote:I would think that, and this is just a guess, the limbs and such would have some sort of self preservation system.

For
instance a cyborg takes a round that severs a limb. The limb reacts by
cutting the circulation to the limb to save the cyborg and buy them time
for treatment.

Well the girls do seem to stop bleeding quickly... though I'm inclined to agree with El that it would be the result of a fast coagulating agent in the blood or some such similar... see previous discussion about budgets etc.

El Conservatore wrote:Now there's a thought. Could you superglue your cyborg together, patch the area with duct-tape and more superglue, gesso (modern acrylic gesso for canvas paintings, as there's apparently a variety of gessos) the duct tape, then apply foundation over it to create the semblance of a whole person? Hell, could you even use Bondo or Epoxy Resin to fill in large chunks and then paint/foundation over it?

Well, the duct tape was a bit of an exaggeration, but the superglue was not... Super/CA glue is used as a medical glue: why do you think it's so damn effective at sticking your fingers to things? I've glued cuts closed before, stings like crazy mind. In J+M's case it was to seal up a bullet wound.

One thing that I believe Robert introduced, and I expanded on a little was the concept of a "body bog" type self-skinning foam, which could be used to fill and seal wounds. Useless obviously in terms of helping bodily systems, but it could seal up a gash and prevent infection and I had it dry to the appearance of scar tissue (meaning it could be one-size-fits-most) until the cyborg in question could be brought in for proper repairs.

Well yeah, I know about Thin and Thick CA. But I was serious about the Epoxy and/or Bondo. Cyborg limbs that have had a large chunk taken out of them, say from a .50 cal AP, can't be effectively camouflauged, so something needs to be used as a filler. Epoxy, slopped in and then sanded, or Bondo, which would be the same, are both easily available and things that would work pretty well for a casual inspection. If the cyborg is patted down or searched, "I have a prosthetic, and we didn't want to spend money on repairs" works pretty well as an excuse.

Alfisti wrote: Well the girls do seem to stop bleeding quickly... though I'm inclined to agree with El that it would be the result of a fast coagulating agent in the blood or some such similar... see previous discussion about budgets etc.

I'd tend to agree. It was just an idea, that is a much more practical, not to mention cost effective, solution to a major injury.

Alfisti wrote:One thing that I believe Robert introduced, and I expanded on a little was the concept of a "body bog" type self-skinning foam, which could be used to fill and seal wounds. Useless obviously in terms of helping bodily systems, but it could seal up a gash and prevent infection and I had it dry to the appearance of scar tissue (meaning it could be one-size-fits-most) until the cyborg in question could be brought in for proper repairs.

Interesting. Sounds like another good possibility. I'm inclined to say a combo of both may be a good idea. The fast coagulating agent is good for extremities while the "body bog" idea would be practical in a torso/chest/stomach wound.

And just as a thought i mentioned "Field Maintenance" just a bit ago. It's stated that they use conditioner to put the girls under for surgery and such for their medical treatment. So would that conflict with this "Field Maintenance" idea?

PolosElite23 wrote:Interesting. Sounds like another good possibility. I'm inclined to say a
combo of both may be a good idea. The fast coagulating agent is good
for extremities while the "body bog" idea would be practical in a
torso/chest/stomach wound.

And just as a thought i mentioned
"Field Maintenance" just a bit ago. It's stated that they use
conditioner to put the girls under for surgery and such for their
medical treatment. So would that conflict with this "Field Maintenance"
idea?

I don't know if the bog as I was writing it would fix a major wound. I know I was picturing it more as a cosmetic thing, for a wound small enough that it doesn't require immediate repair... but by the same time they can't have Monty walking around in a slinky dress with bullet holes in her.

I think the heavy dose of conditioning used for surgery and the like is in lieu of an anesthetic... so it wouldn't prevent first aid etc. Anything serious though which required opening the girl up would probably require it though yes.

El Conservatore wrote:"I have a prosthetic, and we didn't want to spend money on repairs" works pretty well as an excuse.

Assuming of course you're from a country without a public health system...

My major concern would be that I'm fairly certain epoxy is toxic (at least the hardware store variety)... and the girls to some extent are still biological. Either way, I'm sure for minor injuries there's a certain amount of bodging a resourceful handler could do in a pinch.

Alfisti wrote:
My major concern would be that I'm fairly certain epoxy is toxic (at least the hardware store variety)... and the girls to some extent are still biological. Either way, I'm sure for minor injuries there's a certain amount of bodging a resourceful handler could do in a pinch.

Either way, I think the medical discussion might be getting to the stage or warranting its own tech thread?

That goes along my worry as well...that kind of epoxy is probably not something you want in your bloodstream. most likely toxic.

PolosElite23 wrote:

Alfisti wrote:
My major concern would be that I'm fairly certain epoxy is toxic (at least the hardware store variety)... and the girls to some extent are still biological. Either way, I'm sure for minor injuries there's a certain amount of bodging a resourceful handler could do in a pinch.

Either way, I think the medical discussion might be getting to the stage or warranting its own tech thread?

That goes along my worry as well...that kind of epoxy is probably not something you want in your bloodstream. most likely toxic.

Just looked it up and the info I've read seems to concur. From what i'm reading and I quote:

Bear in mind that it probably won't kill your animals outright, but like many chemicals might have unforeseen long-term effects.

The stuff is toxic until it cures fully. After that, it's fine. It does take a long time to fully cure though, (a matter of weeks depending upon how warm it is in the area in which it's drying.)

Judging from that...probably don't want to slather that over your cyborg's wounds...

Something like skin glue may be a viable option to close a wound instead. as this is kinda what its designed for, but its effects aren't going to be as good. You'd need something more for a large trauma like we're talking about, but it could have its place for smaller wounds or maybe a puncture or gunshot wound for a quick fix.

PolosElite23 wrote:

Bear in mind that it probably won't kill your animals outright, but like many chemicals might have unforeseen long-term effects.

The stuff is toxic until it cures fully. After that, it's fine. It does take a long time to fully cure though, (a matter of weeks depending upon how warm it is in the area in which it's drying.)

Judging from that...probably don't want to slather that over your cyborg's wounds...

Something like skin glue may be a viable option to close a wound instead. as this is kinda what its designed for, but its effects aren't going to be as good. You'd need something more for a large trauma like we're talking about, but it could have its place for smaller wounds or maybe a puncture or gunshot wound for a quick fix.

That's the sort of thing Jethro was using superglue for: closing an in one side, out the other tissue wound. I'm not going to pretent to be an expert on medical glues, but I figure if you've got a wound larger than can be fixed with superglue (or its medical equivalent) then you are probably going to be needing a medical professional.

Unfortunately, it turns out Bondo is also extremely toxic: http://www.plasticareinc.com/Merchant2/MSDS_Bondo/bondo%20body%20filler%20264.pdf

The line "Reports have associated repeated and prolonged occupational overexposure to solvents with permanent brain and nervous system damage" would be particularly worrying for a cyborg.

On the other hand, Play-Doh or Modeling clay, molded to fit, super glued in, then coated and painted with foundation? There's also apparently a thing called "paper clay" which is any clay body with a quantity of cellulose mixed in. Theoretically, sufficient quantities of cellulose would allow an airdried nontoxic ceramic filler to be made and applied to the missing pieces of cyborg.

Can you tell I'm slightly obsessed with filling in cavities in cyborgs?

El Conservatore wrote:Can you tell I'm slightly obsessed with filling in cavities in cyborgs?

...

I got nothing...



I dunno, I still like the idea of some sort of general-purpose filler compound a fratello could carry. Disguise it as spray bandage and think of it as tyre-weld for cyborgs... paint over it with makeup if you want or leave it looking like scar tissue.

It stands to reason such a compound would be designed for medical use, as opposed to industrial.

Alfisti wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:Can you tell I'm slightly obsessed with filling in cavities in cyborgs?

...

I got nothing...

I dunno, I still like the idea of some sort of general-purpose filler compound a fratello could carry. Disguise it as spray bandage and think of it as tyre-weld for cyborgs... paint over it with makeup if you want or leave it looking like scar tissue.

Yes, unfortunate wording aside, this really does seem like a good idea. Thoughts on the paper-clay? It apparently dries without shrinkage, so I imagine if you can get the wound to stop bleeding via coagulant, you could pack a mixture of clay and polymer strands into the wound, then spray with a fixative that forces water out of the clay body while gluing the stuff in place.

(Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_clay )

--

Kiskaloo wrote:It stands to reason such a compound would be designed for medical use, as opposed to industrial.

Because problematically, living things die, right? Lulz.

Alfisti wrote:
That's the sort of thing Jethro was using superglue for: closing an in one side, out the other tissue wound. I'm not going to pretent to be an expert on medical glues, but I figure if you've got a wound larger than can be fixed with superglue (or its medical equivalent) then you are probably going to be needing a medical professional.

Defiantly. Most likely though the skin glue could close things like bullet wounds as long as their clean. (I'd have posted a link to a site that gives some guidelines along what skin glue can and can't be used on, but I'm still not past the 7 day limit yet.)

This may slightly have hit off topic since I've been cross referencing for a while now...

Also, say that that clotting agent we've been tossing around fails. Shock is a very deadly thing and with the wounds the cyborgs would get...a very real problem.

Its been discussed several times from what I've seen around the forum about artificial organs and obviously limbs. The question is that with these artificial parts in the body. How is it going to react to shock? More specifically Hypovolemia (loss of fluid causing shock, most likely way for them to go into shock).

We've discussed clotting agents within the bloodstream, if those are in the body then the rate and acceleration to the point of getting to a serious stage of shock, even though all stages of shock are life threatening, that would require immediate IV or blood/plasma to be used to replace blood volume would be greatly reduced (I think ). Also as most of the girls are adolescent, they can compensate for the loss of blood longer than a handler or adult would, but would most likely deteriorate fast once they're bodies couldn't keep it up any more.

I put together kind of a simple guide if you're not sure what Shock really is...I'm no doctor (I'd like to be =P ) but I have a basic idea (supplemented by Wikipedia) of what happens and how to treat it.


Basically you have four steps that kind of slide into one another
Stage 1: The cells aren't getting enough oxygen and their cellular process slows. Causing a build up of lactic acid in the body. pH drops in the blood stream.

Stage 2: The body tries to counteract this by using hormones and other signals. Hyperventilation happens as the body tries to rid itself of the excess CO2 in the body and raise the pH at the same time. Hormones that raise the heart rate and inflate the arteries are produced, causing a rise in blood pressure. The other organs (kidneys, liver, ect.) constrict their blood vessels to provide more blood for the rest of the body.

Stage 3: The body's compensations start to fail and the micro-circulation (in the capillaries) starts to fail, leaking fluid into the surrounding tissue. Organs start to shut down.

Stage 4: All vital organs have failed and death is imminent. No cure or amount of blood replacement is going to work as the body's cellular respiration has slowed to a near stop, oxygen isn't even helpful at this point.

General treatment (an external wound):
1. Assess the wound (is it an artery, in the leg, what kind, ect.)

2. Apply firm pressure to the wound

3. If the wound fails to clot, Apply a tourniquet

4. Give the victim oxygen

5. (If applicable with trained personell) Give the victim IV to restore blood volume (if available: Blood/plasma is recommended, but usually only available at hospitals)

6. (*see above note for 5) administer medications in response to body

7. (At Hospital) Surgical repair of the wound/fix the wound


Okay...so ya, general idea. If i screwed something up tell me so. Anyway, the artificial organs would be running longer during Stage 3, possibly lengthening the time that could be taken to reverse the shock.

Any opinions or ideas all over?

(Did i overdo the whole medical explanation of shock? Its something that would be very bad if the cyborg's clotting system and such couldn't stem the tide of blood and I think a reasonable concern. Plus medical stuff really fascinates me so sometimes i get a bit...carried away? )

Dammit, stop making me scared for the lives of the weapons of mass destruction.

Moving right along, this is very important to note. It seems like, based off of that information, if you don't get the wound to stop bleeding, you're going to lose your unit. It seems like the more we discuss this, the more it seems like a super high end clotting agent and a cyflesh putty are absolutely necessary for continual operation of the cyborgs in the field. Maybe instead of cybondo, a sort of antiseptic thick-CA that adheres tightly to cyflesh and forms a solid coat of polymer?

El Conservatore wrote:Dammit, stop making me scared for the lives of the weapons of mass destruction.

Moving right along, this is very important to note. It seems like, based off of that information, if you don't get the wound to stop bleeding, you're going to lose your unit. It seems like the more we discuss this, the more it seems like a super high end clotting agent and a cyflesh putty are absolutely necessary for continual operation of the cyborgs in the field. Maybe instead of cybondo, a sort of antiseptic thick-CA that adheres tightly to cyflesh and forms a solid coat of polymer?

I like how you think. Or we could go with kind of a synthetic skin patch of sorts with some clotting stuff on the apply-to-wound side? Like, say, you place it on the wound, much like a skin graph or when you repair a pair of pants. To kind of help keep the wound contained so the body's natural healing powers and the clotting stuff can do their wonders.

One thing to worry about is Internal bleeding. Especially with arteries involved. You have to worry about the lungs collapsing due to blood filling the chest cavity, vital organs cut, leaking or punctured to name a few. You are defiantly going to have to "go in" to fix that.

Also unless you do it right, a tourniquet is the only option on the limb if the artery is severed, loss of blood should be quick there...unless hindered by some kind of fast clotting, but that won't stop the bleeding entirely, just slow it.

The human body itself is very fragile, adding mechanical parts and armor helps protect it and keep it going, but its just as liable to break just like a normal one...a bit probably taking more punishment. Its also pretty resilient and plus we're dealing with kids...and kids bodies are unpredictable and can keep going longer than an adult depending on the injury or illness, but they can do well one moment...then they go on a fast downhill spiral within the blink of an eye. They need aggressive treatment of a life-threatening injury for the best chance of survival.

PolosElite23 wrote:I like how you think. Or we could go with kind of a synthetic skin patch of sorts with some clotting stuff on the apply-to-wound side? Like, say, you place it on the wound, much like a skin graph or when you repair a pair of pants. To kind of help keep the wound contained so the body's natural healing powers and the clotting stuff can do their wonders.

I know this is a topic of much debate, but I would be dubious of how much natural healing capacity the cyborgs actually have. They are, afterall, artificial to a greater or lesser extent and while they can probably deal with day-to-day scrapes and bruises, I could see anything going into artificial flesh as needing replacement or repair. A patch does sound like a good idea though, especially for larger wounds. It might not even need to be synthetic skin (assuming we're moving away from cosmetic issues and concentrating on just getting the damage under control), just something to seal things up and get any leaking red under control.

As to internal bleeding: if you're reached that stage you're probably getting beyond what could be repaired in the field, certainly beyond the ability of the average handler.

PolosElite23 wrote:The human body itself is very fragile, adding mechanical parts and armor helps protect it and keep it going, but its just as liable to break just like a normal one...a bit probably taking more punishment. Its also pretty resilient and plus we're dealing with kids...and kids bodies are unpredictable and can keep going longer than an adult depending on the injury or illness, but they can do well one moment...then they go on a fast downhill spiral within the blink of an eye. They need aggressive treatment of a life-threatening injury for the best chance of survival.

Kids bodies are unpredicable... however cyborg bodies have been engineered to guidelines and so their responses are more likely to be known. I'm not saying they would not do something random that no-one expected, but if you've designed and built the thing you have a better chance of predicting how it will react under different circumstances.

Alfisti wrote:
As to internal bleeding: if you're reached that stage you're probably getting beyond what could be repaired in the field, certainly beyond the ability of the average handler.

Yes, I agree about the whole healing thing. (its 2 am here and I should head to bed...) As the normal reaction requires the dermis and epidermis for much of the repair process and most of the cartio vascular and other parts are most liekly synthetic. Parts however, such as the response of white blood cells and other things to the injury site, would still function and help in keeping the wound under control.

For internal bleeding of the chest cavity, Most defiantly... although, a chest tube is a very viable option, given you have a tub to use to drain the blood or even air if it is a lung injury. It's no fix, but it can buy some time.

Alfisti wrote:

PolosElite23 wrote:The human body itself is very fragile, adding mechanical parts and armor helps protect it and keep it going, but its just as liable to break just like a normal one...a bit probably taking more punishment. Its also pretty resilient and plus we're dealing with kids...and kids bodies are unpredictable and can keep going longer than an adult depending on the injury or illness, but they can do well one moment...then they go on a fast downhill spiral within the blink of an eye. They need aggressive treatment of a life-threatening injury for the best chance of survival.

Kids bodies are unpredicable... however cyborg bodies have been engineered to guidelines and so their responses are more likely to be known. I'm not saying they would not do something random that no-one expected, but if you've designed and built the thing you have a better chance of predicting how it will react under different circumstances.

[quote]

In general kids bodies act in a more effective manner in general, in terms of trauma, and can cope better. However, once they can't maintain that level of function their condition plummets. Its just the way that kids are wired and no amount of design can really control it effectively or have an expectation, as the response mechanisms in the body are automatic and natural for that kid. How they react is going to be influenced by the brain. Given, yes they can alter the brain, but I doubt they can change the functionality of the response to injury.

PolosElite23 wrote:Its been discussed several times from what I've seen around the forum about artificial organs and obviously limbs. The question is that with these artificial parts in the body. How is it going to react to shock? More specifically Hypovolemia (loss of fluid causing shock, most likely way for them to go into shock).

Triela lost an arm and a leg at Venice and she was still fully combat effective, though eventually it appears she died from blood loss.

She also took a high-powered rifle round in the gut while protecting Prosecutor Roberta and it clearly penetrated (she had a large blood splotch), but again, she shrugged it off long enough to disable her opponents. But afterwards, she looked in somewhat poor shape (but clearly she was able to receive medical attention and lived).

For Kara, I had her take three armor-piercing 9x39mm bullets from a KBP 9A-91 carbine in Underneath the Radar, however there was a medic on hand and they had the ability to air lift her back to Rome. She was back on duty within a week.

PolosElite23 wrote:In general kids bodies act in a more effective manner in general, in terms of trauma, and can cope better. However, once they can't maintain that level of function their condition plummets. Its just the way that kids are wired and no amount of design can really control it effectively or have an expectation, as the response mechanisms in the body are automatic and natural for that kid. How they react is going to be influenced by the brain. Given, yes they can alter the brain, but I doubt they can change the functionality of the response to injury.

Absolutely agreed on the brain part of it, how that responds is really going to be up in the air to a greater or lesser extent and dependent on the individual. Again: I'm no doctor so can't pretend to know how much influence the brain has over the body's autonomous reactions... that said: the girls' pain seems to receed quickly after an injury, at least in combat, so I wonder how far the conditioning is able to damp the body's signals going back to the brain? *shrugs*.

You know, the more I think about this the more problematic injuries are to cyborgs. For unmods, you can take a fair deal of damage and be incapacitated, but things will eventually regrow. But with a cyborg, you'd have to completely replace everything that was broken. So internal injuries etc. wouldn't be things you could treat, period. You'd be forced to surgically swap out organs. This also implies that arteries, veins, and other connective/vascular tissue needs to be replaced en masse, as you can't expect a deep cut or bullet wound to stick together and heal slowly. Treating battlefield wounds on a cyborg literally requires you to glue them back together to keep them from dying, whereas battlefield medicine for unmods (or nonmods) involves stabilizing them for later treatment to accelerate the putting-self-back-together process.

As such, I propose that there is in fact NO specialized battlefield treatment plan for cyborgs. Instead, handlers and support personnel are instructed to confirm levels of damage, then seal everything with either super super glue, highly ductile duct tape, or both, then carry on if possible. This implies that for all their speed and strength, cyborgs are in fact EXTREMELY fragile.

Kiskaloo wrote:

PolosElite23 wrote:Its been discussed several times from what I've seen around the forum about artificial organs and obviously limbs. The question is that with these artificial parts in the body. How is it going to react to shock? More specifically Hypovolemia (loss of fluid causing shock, most likely way for them to go into shock).

Triela lost an arm and a leg and she was still fully combat effective, though eventually it appears she died from blood loss.

She also took a high-powered rifle round in the gut and it clearly penetrated (she had a large blood splotch), but again, she shrugged it off long enough to disable her opponents. But afterwards, she looked in somewhat poor shape (but clearly she was able to receive medical attention and lived).

For Kara, I had her take three armor-piercing 9x39mm bullets from a KBP 9A-91 carbine in Underneath the Radar, however there was a medic on hand and they had the ability to air lift her back to Rome. She was back on duty within a week.

I agree that the cyborgs have 'anti-shock/blood-loss' things, but in all reality. The loss of blood caused by an injury is my main concern here. In the medical field they refer to it as 'Tennis' in reference to loss of blood. 15% then 15-30% then 30-40% and finally >40%. I'm referring specifically to a substantial loss of blood. Triela shows several signs (from what I've seen of the manga, based off facial expressions) went downhill fast after a bit, her body did keep her going due to the fact a child is good at keeping the body running under extensive trauma. When Triela has that dream of Rachell (I'm to tired to see how that's really spelled) she is defiantly in stage 3 and is entering stage 4 by the time Hillshire gets to her. ultimately she died of Hypovolemic Shock. So, shock is a real issue here. I think its all in where the round goes I think.

Alfisti, I feel maybe they interrupt the pain sensors? maybe the conditioning alters how the brain sends and receives things.

I agree, El, Cyborgs are fragile for all their prowess. Medically the whole thing is great, put it into combat and you have some serious issues to think about. I think they'd react how they'd have reacted before the whole handler thing. Still 'treating' the wounds, but having to try and stabilize their fratello and then cross their fingers...


The whole cyborg thing is getting more and more...impractical for combat. Sure they can do a whole heck of a lot and are super assassin pros , but hit them just right...good night Irene . If you get them just right...its all over, because their body just can't compensate, the natural ways of doing that are affected by the whole augmentation.

Its a big bloody mess.

And consequently, my proposal that all cyborg skins be nanoweaved with high tensile strength fibers that prevent perforating bullet wounds. Compensate for the concussive force with highly shock resistant artificial bone and nest the organs in another layer of that high-tensile strength fiber, and you should have a pretty robust system. At that point, then it's very easy to use the aforementioned Plaetape (platelet + tape) to stop bleeding and seal wounds.

Afterall, we know that Henrietta gets bacta tanked with nanobots that repair her skin, so why can't they be nanobots that give her ARMOR skin?

El Conservatore wrote:Afterall, we know that Henrietta gets bacta tanked with nanobots that repair her skin, so why can't they be nanobots that give her ARMOR skin?

I'd posit that the manga and anime showing the girls' skin bleeding from knife cuts and bullet impacts implies that the skin doesn't seem to be designed to resist such impacts. In my view, that is the job of the CFRP musculature underneath.

Kiskaloo wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:Afterall, we know that Henrietta gets bacta tanked with nanobots that repair her skin, so why can't they be nanobots that give her ARMOR skin?

I'd posit that the manga and anime showing the girls' skin bleeding from knife cuts and bullet impacts implies that the skin doesn't seem to be designed to resist such impacts. In my view, that is the job of the CFRP musculature underneath.

Well either way, the result is the same, no?

El Conservatore wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:Afterall, we know that Henrietta gets bacta tanked with nanobots that repair her skin, so why can't they be nanobots that give her ARMOR skin?

I'd posit that the manga and anime showing the girls' skin bleeding from knife cuts and bullet impacts implies that the skin doesn't seem to be designed to resist such impacts. In my view, that is the job of the CFRP musculature underneath.

Well either way, the result is the same, no?

Yes, though we should remember the nanobots in a Bacta Tank was a new technology imported from America. In earlier volumes, the repair work looked more "traditional".

PolosElite23 wrote:Alfisti, I feel maybe they interrupt the pain sensors? maybe the conditioning alters how the brain sends and receives things.

That's the impression I got.

PolosElite23 wrote:The whole cyborg thing is getting more and more...impractical for combat. Sure they can do a whole heck of a lot and are super assassin pros , but hit them just right...good night Irene . If you get them just right...its all over, because their body just can't compensate, the natural ways of doing that are affected by the whole augmentation.

Its a big bloody mess.

Firstly, second what El said regards patch up and either carry on or await help.

Yes, but it would be a lucky or very powerful shot (as the Padania seem to be rolling out in later volumes) to get a one-hit kill... otherwise they seem to be able to absorb quite a lot of damage. However, you're right: the augmentation does ultimately seem (from this discussion at least) to compromise the body's natural ability to cope with injury, particularly over longer periods. I think in a way this stems back to the original discussion on the "You're not suited for this" thread that the cyborgs are best suited to short duration operations with support close at hand.

El Conservatore wrote:Afterall, we know that Henrietta gets bacta tanked with nanobots that
repair her skin, so why can't they be nanobots that give her ARMOR skin?

Didn't we already have this discussion? That said, if you take the economic and manpower factors out of the argument there is no reason it could not be developed given time.

Blurgh, I was tired last night. Yeah, the bacta tank thing was already discussed, which I had forgotten about in my sleepy haze. Still, the muscles being of high tensile strength fibers would also imply that as long as the muscle isn't directly damage via cutting of the fibers, then the limb should be able to operate. Now that I think about it, that is basically how the girls work in canon, isn't it?

Pretty sure. What would be good would be some sort of self repair for the body? If not a complete repair but a way to have the cyborg patch themselves up to keep going and be repaired enough internally within the body to make it able keep functioning and retain some of that preaugmentation healing...a bit for a cybernetic body. Which would be helpful for being in a remote area or away from a SWA facility. Which also would be good for Monty...away from home some kind of healing can happen while away from help.

The adhesive clotting bandages you mentioned earlier sound like a good plan. Carry the cure rather than work it into the platform, as the former is easier than the latter. Alternatively, the antiseptic thick-CA could easily be kept in a "nail polish" container and applied as needed. For example, if you died it light pink, you could bottle it in this...





...and then nobody would be the wiser. Lip gloss, tooth paste, or hair product would also work.

Good idea, make everything look like things normally stored in a purse, one of those ridiculously big ones, and use the purse as a field medical bag, handy for those missions away from Italy or part of a undercover mission/when secrecy is needed.

There is a reason why Caterina has a messenger bag, and it is because messenger bags are fairly stylish for her age bracket, and she can store a huge amount of stuff in it.

Ya, a laptop bag and such are good ideas for storing stuff...maybe not Caterina as she has other things to stick in that, but for the other cyborgs a laptop bag isn't all that bad of a day. Where I live it isn't uncommon for people to have a laptop bag or backpack on them, and in Italy you could pick up a slight accent, American maybe?, and act as a tourist which would explain the bag.

Hey, fannie packs are the classic tourist thing, right? Do you realize you could probably store a hand grenade's worth of TNT in one of those?

But yeah, Caterina has her laptop, knife, gun, and various gadgetry, but that's about it. I'll have to fiddle around with the contents in a few.

Back on topic: For clotting agents, and running with the medical makeup idea, could we do a sort of clotting-agent-powder that you can dust/dump onto a wound? Also, the thing with diabetes- disguised autoinjectors can be used to dispense artificial platelets instead.

PolosElite23 wrote:Pretty sure. What would be good would be some sort of self repair for the body? If not a complete repair but a way to have the cyborg patch themselves up to keep going and be repaired enough internally within the body to make it able keep functioning and retain some of that preaugmentation healing...a bit for a cybernetic body. Which would be helpful for being in a remote area or away from a SWA facility. Which also would be good for Monty...away from home some kind of healing can happen while away from help.

It would be nice, and I guess there are "self-healing" polymers out there... but I don't think anyone has managed to replicate the sort of healing a human body can do with artificial components.

...and, to be honest: from a story perspective it kind of takes the fun out.

El Conservatore wrote:...and then nobody would be the wiser. Lip gloss, tooth paste, or hair product would also work.

Except two of three are not allowed to fly hand-luggage.

That said, having some of this gear disguised would not be a bad idea: and as El noted it would be easier to carry a clotting agent etc as a seperate item rather than integrate it into the platform: not to mention if you developed a better alternative you could just swap the item rather than having to somehow upgrade the platform.

In terms of a quick combat fix, I think the patches are probably the best answer; it's an instant seal and also could lend some level of structural support. You could also make them to look like regular bandages or bandaids.

El Conservatore wrote:Hey, fannie packs are the classic tourist thing, right?

*shudder* Only if you or your wife also have a blue rinse or no pride... fine for some, but maybe not for others.

Jokes aside, how this stuff could be carried really depends on who is doing the carrying and what they're wearing. Messenger bags are a good option for most teenagers in casual garb, however if you take how Monty dresses she could not resonably carry one.

For that matter: who is more likely to be carrying it? The cyborg or the handler? I would be willing to suggest it is more likely the handler would be carrying the medical supplies should the fratello in question have them, so a briefcase, laptop bag or small duffle would do quite well for him. Afterall, the cyborg is the muscle, the handler is the more likely to be the one picking up the pieces.

As to the diabetic thing: I imagine there are any number of things can be hidden in an insulin injector. I know a few have toyed with the idea that each handler carries an epipen of the conditioning drug in liquid form (so faster acting than pills) for use on a crashing cyborg or should a badly injured one need to be sedated/push through a mission.

Well, it seems to me that cyborgs and handlers would both be carrying supplies. Clotting Agent disguised as foundation would not be something the handler would carry, for example. Furthermore, it allows for the fratello to keep operating should the situation get a tad hairy. Say Henrietta takes a couple hits to upper torso. If only the handler is carrying the meds, she'd have to either finish the mission with gunshot wounds or wait for Giuse to back her up. Alternatively, she could just peel the cover off a strip of BorgTape and press it over the wound, then keep going without much hindrance. She has an instrument case, and it probably wouldn't be that difficult to fit a couple of precut BorgTape pieces in their with the ammo or something.

Granted, however, that different missions would force different loadouts, so I guess that the above would constitute an idealized arrangement.

Woundseal powder

WoundSeal Powder is composed of a hydrophilic, or water-loving, polymer and potassium ferrate. When the powder is poured onto a bleeding wound, the hydrophilic polymer instantly dehydrates the blood by absorbing only the plasma or liquid portion of the blood stacking the blood solids beneath the powder.
Simultaneously the potassium ferrate dissolves, releasing iron that agglomerates (binds together) the blood solids to create an occlusive seal.
As manual pressure is applied to the powder, the seal is pushed into contact with the wound. The natural glue-like nature of drying blood adheres the seal to the wound and surrounding skin. The occlusive seal, that has formed in seconds, stops further bleeding or oozing. Blood solids continue to stack beneath the seal, strengthening it. The natural clotting process proceeds below the seal.

not meant as and advert lol

El Conservatore wrote:Well, it seems to me that cyborgs and handlers would both be carrying supplies. Clotting Agent disguised as foundation would not be something the handler would carry, for example. Furthermore, it allows for the fratello to keep operating should the situation get a tad hairy. Say Henrietta takes a couple hits to upper torso. If only the handler is carrying the meds, she'd have to either finish the mission with gunshot wounds or wait for Giuse to back her up. Alternatively, she could just peel the cover off a strip of BorgTape and press it over the wound, then keep going without much hindrance. She has an instrument case, and it probably wouldn't be that difficult to fit a couple of precut BorgTape pieces in their with the ammo or something.

No arguments there, but she's not going to be lugging the full medical kit with her on a house raid or similar: maybe just a few strips in a pocket or, as you said, in her instrument case. The bulk of any first-aid equipment is more likely to be left with the handler, so unless said handler is willing to stand around quite litterally holding his girl's handbag any disguising of it would be better geared toward his cover than hers.

Alfisti wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:Well, it seems to me that cyborgs and handlers would both be carrying supplies. Clotting Agent disguised as foundation would not be something the handler would carry, for example. Furthermore, it allows for the fratello to keep operating should the situation get a tad hairy. Say Henrietta takes a couple hits to upper torso. If only the handler is carrying the meds, she'd have to either finish the mission with gunshot wounds or wait for Giuse to back her up. Alternatively, she could just peel the cover off a strip of BorgTape and press it over the wound, then keep going without much hindrance. She has an instrument case, and it probably wouldn't be that difficult to fit a couple of precut BorgTape pieces in their with the ammo or something.

No arguments there, but she's not going to be lugging the full medical kit with her on a house raid or similar: maybe just a few strips in a pocket or, as you said, in her instrument case. The bulk of any first-aid equipment is more likely to be left with the handler, so unless said handler is willing to stand around quite litterally holding his girl's handbag any disguising of it would be better geared toward his cover than hers.

Hmm, I see you point, and once again we also return to the fact that the mission will dictate what the fratello has room to carry.

----

Awinnell wrote:

Woundseal powder

WoundSeal Powder is
composed of a hydrophilic, or water-loving, polymer and potassium
ferrate. When the powder is poured onto bleeding
wound, the hydrophilic polymer instantly dehydrates the blood by
absorbing only the plasma or liquid portion of the blood stacking the
blood solids beneath the powder. Simultaneously the potassium ferrate
dissolves, releasing iron that agglomerates (binds together) the blood
solids to create an occlusive seal.

As manual pressure is applied to
the powder, the seal is pushed into contact with the wound. The natural
glue-like nature of drying blood adheres the seal to the wound and
surrounding skin. The occlusive seal, that has formed in seconds, stops
further bleeding or oozing. Blood solids continue to stack beneath the
seal, strengthening it. The natural clotting process proceeds below the
seal.

not meant as and advert lol

Ah technology!