Armoring the Cyborgs

ChaosKin640 wrote:Not to nit-pick or anything, but the T800 wasn't a cyborg; he was a straight-up android.

The T-800 / Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 did have an organic covering and was explicitly referred to as a cyborg by Kyle Reese in the original movie.

The T-1000, T-1001 and T-X would not be cyborgs as they had no organic parts.

FearTheLASERFACE wrote:Hey, I wonder if you could undo everything. That'd be interesting.

No. That's one thing I touched on on Solution's Resolution and the Acorn Cafe did with Gunslinger Bink. In the least, if you remove the extremities replaced by cybernetics, you would have a quadra-amputee. Remove the internal organs that were replaced, they would not have a chance to live outside the surgery room without advanced life support systems.

In Gunslinger Bink, many of the Acorn Cafe members thought that "Bink" could be rescued and her cybernetics removed. When it turns out that it could not happen, the story went into a nose die as far a s members are concerned and flame wars erupted. With the help of Hondo, we are preserving the Gunslinger Bink series and continuing with it as best as we can.

The T-800 / Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 did have an organic covering and was explicitly referred to as a cyborg by Kyle Reese in the original movie.

Eh, I guess that's a matter of opinion then. As far as I'm concerned, the T-800 was just an android in a meat-suit. If the biological components are not explicitly neccessary for the unit to operate, then its not a cyborg. The T-800 is perfectly capable of walking around and killing things without its organic coating; the coating simply allows it to undertake infiltration missions. That makes it an android. Things like the Borg, or own own gunslinger girls, still need their biological parts, which makes them cyborgs.

I think most of the armor is on the body.
What should that protect at the limbs?
Most important is to protect the living organs which are keeping the human in the girl alive. They must be protected with some layers of kevlar under the skin or meat.
The skeleton is made of carbon but i think the human core (neck and head) are still bones.
Otherwise you could implant a chip and have a android and not a cyborg.

If your limb bones break, you're incapacitated. It would therefore make sense to armor the limbs.

A cyborg's skull is probably armored to a certain extent, too. Case in point: Rico once took a shot to her head without so much as flinching.

Kiskaloo wrote:As I noted up-thread, these girls are more androids than cyborgs.

Kiskaloo wrote:I'm quite aware of what an android and a cyborg are and have noted such in my posts. I'm not implying the girls are androids, for they clearly do not meet the dictionary definition of being an android.

My mistake. I was just posting my own (now clearly incorrect) definition of cyborg and android. No offense meant.

schaschanist wrote:I think most of the armor is on the body. What should that protect at the limbs?

The girls use their arms as shields to protect their eyes (the most vulnerable part of their body as it allows direct access for weapons to their brains), so I would expect they and the legs are well-armored through the CFRP musculature. Since they replace the limbs, I would expect they use titanium for the "bones" to provide greater strength and resilience.

As for the torso and skull, the Gen 2's appear to keep their original skeleton, just with upgrading (perhaps carbon nanotubes applied by nanites). Personally, I expect it is the same with the Gen 1's, as replacing their complete skeletal system with an artificial one strikes me as far, far too invasive.

It's absolute not logical with the 1st gens.
Their bodies seems to be just completely artificial.
It looks like it is a bioengineered bionic machine, but the only needed human-part is the brain and the organs to keep the brain alive.
The rest of the original human body is for trash..
Sounds hard but i think this brings it to the point!

But this is ridiculous inhuman, absolutely disturbing and fucking disgusting and i dont will belief this fact!
For me they were, are and still will be enhanced humans and not biomechanic-robots with a human controlling-unit.
Sorry but at this point the sorry becomes more than illogically.
Here the theory of the 2nd gens is more believable than the theory of the 1st gens and makes more sense.

Yu has never really said much about the architecture of the first generation units. We've seen Henrietta's shoulder and Triela's replacement leg, and that is about it.

It's only with the introduction of the 2nd Gens (via Petrushka) that he's said anything about what goes into developing them and even that is a "top level" overview. So it's all pretty much speculation on our part and each author has chosen their own architectural path for the girls in their OC universes.

You're Right with this, Kisk.

I think a huge number of people takes the story too seroius or really believe the theories of some other people.
I have my own theory about what the swa is doing to the girls.

Each OC-Writer has it's own opinion or ideas and theories about the cyborgs. Sometimes they are believable but sometimes the are only ridiculous or disgusting (e.g. the theory of that the brain the only surviving human part placed into a robotic biomechanic-body)
But in mine and of course yours, the girls are enhanced humans.

Kiskaloo wrote:Yu has never really said much about the architecture of the first generation units. We've seen Henrietta's shoulder and Triela's replacement leg, and that is about it.

It's only with the introduction of the 2nd Gens (via Petrushka) that he's said anything about what goes into developing them and even that is a "top level" overview. So it's all pretty much speculation on our part and each author has chosen their own architectural path for the girls in their OC universes.

Angie's arms and legs in V2, memeories of her reconstruction and the medics going over a body diagram of her near by.

In which Chapter in the Manga is it?

schaschanist wrote:In which Chapter in the Manga is it?

Last two chapters of V2, The Pasta Prince II, CH 11. The page is not labeled, but is it about 8 pages in.

Pictures of her legs being some form of advanced prosthesis are scattered all over the series. In V9, CH 47, first page; CH46, pg 50 shows her damaged arm and hand.

In the anime, S1E9 has this:

do remmber that some body parts can be grown like The Vacanti mouse, other body parts may come from other donner Animals.

Unless the donor part is inert (like ear cartilage), Xenotransplantations are dangerous and often used as a last result. The dangers include Hyper and Chronic Rejection and cross species infections.

I remember a case in the 1990s of this idiot (some semi-famous gay right activist guy, its not the gay rights I was against, it was his other policies and political views he had at the time I did not agree with) suffering from AIDS and Hep. B (I think it was B). He went for a Baboon liver transplant because Baboon livers were immune to Human versions of Hep. He died less than a week from the operation from Hyper rejection and some disease the Baboon had that would have been a minor thing if he did not have AIDS. Since his own liver failed at the time of the operation, the docs say that he had lived just a few more days than expected. Note the word FEW.

It is MHO that anyone going for a Xenotransplant is either super desperate or a fool, and those who are his medical professional care givers are even worse, idiots who are trying to make a name for themselves in trying to create the impossible. They are the ones who say, "The operation was a complete success, too bad we lost the patient!" If you lose the patient, how can the operation be a success?

Well I was combing though some of my old RPG books, d20 Future and d20 Cyberscape and I have a possible solution.

Advanced robotic limbs, subcutaneous body armor covering the head and torso made up of flexible but overlapping pieces of a bullet-resistant metal (similarly in design to scale mail), ocular implants and replacement of the subject's auditory system.

As they said the weak points of the cyborgs are their eyes as you cannot armor them.

In my opinion i figured the armoring was some sort of carbon nanotubule or nanofibers in the skin and other subcutaneous tissues. Also the muscles could also act as amor as well. I think this would give enough armor to equal what is seen in cannon

I'm fond of the idea of flexible woven armor inbetween the skin & organs, with hard armor used only in critical places, but there's plenty of room for debate.


In chapter 6 Claes gets stabbed...but did the blade break (implying it hit a rib or hard plate)? Sources disagree here...the manga shows the blade broken, in the anime it sits on Raballo's dashboard intact.

The skull is solid of course (Robert F. advanced the idea that it is some sort of ceramic),

With the girls propensity for shielding their eyes with a forearm that would be a logical place for a hard plate as well.

Ceramics would be logical, given how prevalent they already are, so long as it's something not requiring any kind of movement. Skull fabricated from ceramic plates with a kevlar weave, carbon fiber bones either interwoven or covered with kevlar and ceramic... depending on the model of cyborg, it's possible that some of the organs may even incorporate kevlar into their creation, too...

In my OC universe, the musculature itself is bullet-resistant as is the endoskeleton. The ribcage has "plate" armor to make it resistant to high-velocity rifle rounds. The abdomen has additional weaved armor beyond the musculature since a rifle round penetrated Triela's abdomen enough to draw serious blood, but she was not rendered combat ineffective. So when Kara took three AP rounds in her gut, they went right through her and didn't do terminal damage.

I think we just need to equip a bullet-proof armor - Small and lightweight so that they can wear daily .They run so fast that they are very hard to hit , Excellent shooting skills and almost perfect melee skills .Why did we have to fix something so perfect like that ???

lyndist wrote:Why did we have to fix something almost perfect???

Because (as you & all our fellow Veterans know) no two missions are alike.

A mission to pick up Mario Bossi (chapter 3) or Fillipo Adani (chapter 9) will require the girls to blend in with civilians, and there is little threat of running into heavy weapons. Their basic construction should provide enough protection.

A mission like the upcoming nuclear plant battle requires no "blending in" but a huge threat from combat weapons. If I were in Jean's position I'd make sure the cyborgs were wearing a little extra protection in the form of bullet-proof material.

Looks like Jean agrees...hopefully there's some Kevlar or hard ceramic plate armor in those vests they're wearing.

And don't forget the headset.
In the previous chapter it seemed that Henrietta had an Earpiece.
They give her more important roles after rebooting.

Not to mention that in addition to supplying protection, most tactical vests offer locations to secure magazine pouches and grenades - something that will probably be required when this gets to the nastiness that is FISH & CHIPS

This task (nuclear power plant in Turin) is not a common task

Take a look:

1 / Terrorists have at least three anti-aircraft guns. They can lower the barrel and turn them into three super-heavy machine guns.

They can even shoot the armored car into a beehive

2 / They have a lot of mines, Claymore, explosives and anti-material rifles , with an 20mm autocannon

3 / They have more than 50 elite soldiers with high morale

If it is me , i will use video cameras to capture scenes SWA attack on the plant and released them online.Italian government will collapse and we will become heroes

lyndist wrote: and heavy sniper rifle (with 20mm ammunition)

Worst case scenario for Section Two...Dante has anticipated their attack & one of those 20mm rifles is aimed directly down the pipe they are entering. With no avenue of retreat they would be like fish in a barrel.

As heavy as our cyborg-girls are armored, there are always guns which can kill them.
Remember, for what is an Anzio 20mm anti material rifle build? Right, to penetrate armor of tanks or heavy armored cars.
They need alot heavier armor to be safe from these 20mm rounds.
And this is impossible with their build-in armor and a kevlar/ceramic vest...
And then, i think non of the cyborgs (no matter how heavy armored) is safe against something like that:

(And not to mention what a bazooka does with the girls...)


But think again, the bad guys have access to the black market, and you can get everything there. Warheads from the soviets, rifles from African rebels, or heavy anti-tank/anti-airplane guns like a bazooka or a mini-gun (like above) from the U.S. .

Government organizations

1 / You can buy brand new items

2 / There is absolutely no problem with the resupply

3 / Shipping simple and safe

4 / There is a large financial resources and stability

Worst case: Dante set dynamite and blowing up nuclear power plant

All dead

lyndist wrote:Worst case: Dante set dynamite and blowing up nuclear power plant

All dead

Including him, which is why he wont do it unless he has a means of escape right before it goes, and that means getting his but 50 miles away or more in just minutes. Its not possible and unles he's sacrificing himself and his team (which they will object too), he wont do it.

I don't think they give a big fuck about their own lives.
What else will Dante wants to do with a nuclear warhead or power plant when he doesn't want to kill himself?

In my eyes the whole nuclear thing makes no real sense, a nuclear detonation kills everything in a relative huge range (about several miles and more), not to consider the nuclear winter, the cancer and more bad things you're suffering from after the nuclear detonation and radioactive fallout...
Giacomo already is a really evil bad-ass guy but after I've seen the new chapters I think he's getting absolutely insane.

schaschanist wrote:I don't think they give a big fuck about their own lives.
What else will Dante wants to do with a nuclear warhead or power plant when he doesn't want to kill himself?

In my eyes the whole nuclear thing makes no real sense, a nuclear detonation kills everything in a relative huge range (about several miles and more), not to consider the nuclear winter, the cancer and more bad things you're suffering from after the nuclear detonation and radioactive fallout...
Giacomo already is a really evil bad-ass guy but after I've seen the new chapters I think he's getting absolutely insane.

Dante is a leader of the (this nuke) group. Leaders like Dante will sacrifice the whole team to save himself. Why else was he far away in Venice? Far enough to make a hit but still make an escape when no one was looking. The same has to apply here, Dante is going to escape somehow.

As for the girls getting shot up in a tunnel, I propose a layer of protection against the 20mm. A manhole cover. 3 inches of steel is enough to give them protection and they are strong enough to carry it. Carry it to the shooting gun and drop it on top of it... Lets use some brains here.

Of course they could use Alpha's approach which would be loading a Jeep with an assload of gas tanks and sticking the throttle so that it launches itself down the tunnel with a few taped together extra long sticks of incendiary dynamite used to stick the throttle down.

And after the Jeep is down the tunnel using something bigger (like a lorry) to plug the hole so that the fireball only has one(1) place to go.

Insert appropriate gesture...


And reconvene on Alpha's compound where Liesel and Claes are waiting with cakes, cookies, and cocoa for everyone. All homemade of course.

AK-47 bullets can penetrate three to five millimeters of steel in the 50 m range , with AP rounds . In a tunnel ? - just pour oil and firethe whole thing up

I used to watch a film about prison break. I do not remember the exact name but it says about U.S. Marines. They have cameras, motion detectors scattered around the tunnels. It was a massacre . We have saw some cameras during operations in Venice. , in this chapter too , this will be a blood bath

I had a little view on the raws of the next chapters 78 and 79, tsundere posted for us.

Just to make it clear:
They are not as heavy armored as we thought all the time.
A 'simple' .50BMg from a sniper rifle can damage a Cyborg easily.
Proofs are here:

Spoiler:

lyndist wrote:
I used to watch a film about prison break. I do not remember the exact name but it says about U.S. Marines. They have cameras, motion detectors scattered around the tunnels. It was a massacre

You're referring to 'The Rock'. That wasn't exactly a prison break, friend, more of an attempt to retake Alcatraz from the rogue Marines occupying it.

And of course, only Nicholas Cage and Sean Connery survive the ambush laid out for the SEALs.

MP5 wrote:

lyndist wrote:
I used to watch a film about prison break. I do not remember the exact name but it says about U.S. Marines. They have cameras, motion detectors scattered around the tunnels. It was a massacre

You're referring to 'The Rock'. That wasn't exactly a prison break, friend, more of an attempt to retake Alcatraz from the rogue Marines occupying it.

And of course, only Nicholas Cage and Sean Connery survive the ambush laid out for the SEALs.

Exactly it wasn't an 'ambush'.
The scene in the shower room was an 'execution' at it's best. (I've seen this movie about 2 weeks ago )

schaschanist wrote:I had a little view on the raws of the next chapters 78 and 79, tsundere posted for us.

Just to make it clear: They are not as heavy armored as we thought all the time.

A 'simple' .50BMg from a sniper rifle can damage a Cyborg easily.

I think the consensus has been for some time that the girl's armor was only good for, at best, assault rifle rounds (at least at very close ranges and then only in the torso area). Anti-material rounds like the 20x80mm and 12.7x99mm / .50BMG were clearly going to crack them open like a walnut.

The girls' armor is proof against rifle fire, max. A Barrett can punch through concrete, for crying out loud.

Fun fact - an actual re-enactment of the shower room scene from The Rock produced some very interesting results. In short, the action didn't turn out to be so one-sided after all.

Interesting, Nacht... you have a source on that? That sounds nifty to read

I can't find anything on the web, unfortunately. The article I read was in print, and it was ages ago.

The jist of it was that in practice, it's extremely difficult to keep a steady aim when someone's firing back at you. With all the lead flying around, you're bound to flinch and give your target an opportunity to evade. Based on that principle, some among the group playing the SEALs actually broke out of the ground-floor slaughter and made it halfway up the stairs leading to the balconies where the 'Marines' were before being 'killed' to the last man. The main fight took place on the stairs and landings. While the SEALs took 100% casualties, the Marines suffered far more than the one dead they sustained in the film.

Nachtsider wrote:The girls' armor is proof against rifle fire, max. A Barrett can punch through concrete, for crying out loud.

I like that interpretation far more than the idea of "invulnerable cyborgs." To take it a step further I'd say even a well placed handgun shot with the right kind of ammo could do potentially lethal damage (as is the case with real-world body armor). There are no absolute guarantees.

My take; (the way I write it in my stories) The girls are bullet resistant, not bullet proof...and they know it even if they don't always act that way.

an actual re-enactment of the shower room scene from The Rock produced some very interesting results. In short, the action didn't turn out to be so one-sided after all.

Just the kind of experiment I can see Section Two running at the shoot-house.
Scenario; it's been a long day of boring drills...the cyborgs are getting tired & cranky. Some clever handler finally proposes "Okay, I know it's hot and we've all been training since dawn...but if you give us just three more good run thru's we'll wrap it up and spend the rest of the afternoon re-enacting the scene from that movie you all like so much!" That gets the girls upbeat and moving again.

Maybe it's time to add a second floor to that shoot-house.

Professor Voodoo wrote:To take it a step further I'd say even a well placed handgun shot with the right kind of ammo could do potentially lethal damage (as is the case with real-world body armor). There are no absolute guarantees.

My take; (the way I write it in my stories) The girls are bullet resistant, not bullet proof...and they know it even if they don't always act that way.

This is the take I generally follow. As for well placed shots, there's only so well you can armour things like joints. I certainly don't think you need a .50-cal to incapacitate a cyborg limb.

Alfisti wrote: I certainly don't think you need a .50-cal to incapacitate a cyborg limb.

Salvatore: (pulls out a .32 caliber handgun) I dunno, let's see. HELEN! Get your ass over here!

Helen: (cringing) Y-yes, sir? (Her handler shoots her in the knee) OWWWowwwooowwwww!!!

Salvatore: Now get your ass over to the obstacle course and see if it's possible to run some laps.

The other handlers look on him with horror...Salvatore just shakes his head.

Salvatore: Jeeze...isn't this kind of stuff Claes' job?

Professor Voodoo wrote:Salvatore: (pulls out a .32 caliber handgun) I dunno, let's see. HELEN! Get your ass over here!

Helen: (cringing) Y-yes, sir? (Her handler shoots her in the knee) OWWWowwwooowwwww!!!

Salvatore: Now get your ass over to the obstacle course and see if it's possible to run some laps.

The other handlers look on him with horror...Salvatore just shakes his head.

Salvatore: Jeeze...isn't this kind of stuff Claes' job?

Jethro: Anyone seen my SIG?

Jacob: Suddenly I'm not looking like such a heartless hard-ass, now am I?

[EDIT]

Professor Voodoo wrote:

Alfisti wrote: I certainly don't think you need a .50-cal to incapacitate a cyborg limb.

Salvatore: (pulls out a .32 caliber handgun) I dunno, let's see. HELEN! Get your ass over here!

Helen: (cringing) Y-yes, sir? (Her handler shoots her in the knee) OWWWowwwooowwwww!!!

Salvatore: Now get your ass over to the obstacle course and see if it's possible to run some laps.

The other handlers look on him with horror...Salvatore just shakes his head.

Salvatore: Jeeze...isn't this kind of stuff Claes' job?

Claes: "I promise never to complain about being part of the Pagani fratello again!"

puting real ammor on the outside must be regular.
a good concealable bullet/stab "proof" level IIIA vest costs well under $2000.

funkmachine wrote:a good concealable bullet/stab "proof" level IIIA vest costs well under $2000.

Ferro: Oh, just under 2,000 US dollars...well that's just pocket change! We have a budget, people! Now we only have a limited number of funkmachine's vests so the cyborgs who caused the least collateral damage last month will get them first!

No cyborg steps forward.

Elio: (whispering) They don't care about that stuff, Ferro. Tell them there's a limited number of cupcakes in the dining hall...that'll motivate them.

John: *ahem*

http://www.uscav.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=17205

the imfamous German Police bulletproof Bra

Triela: *poking at chest* Verdammten büstenhalter...

Awinnell wrote:

the imfamous German Police bulletproof Bra

Etienne: *holding such a bra in his hands and imagining something in his mind* "No, not for her!"

Emilie: *looking bit annoyed* "And i thought this skintight tactical suit with a protection vest was ridiculous... But that definitely has beaten it!"

Seriously, if it can protect my life. I do not mind wearing it

Our girls have breasts right?

Most of the 2nd gens have breasts.
At the 1st gens, only Triela and Claes have breasts, but smaller ones.

How touching that?

lyndist wrote:How touching that?

You shouldn't ask me, ask Sandro ^_^
Or Emiliano, he touched Emi in her vacation.

lyndist wrote:How touching that?

Dear lord.

Awinnell wrote:

the imfamous German Police bulletproof Bra

The bra itself is not exactly bullet proof. There is very little protection when wearing it, as it could stop a .22-short or even a .25 round. If you look at it very carefully, this bra is missing a lot of a things a typical bra would have: wires, clips, retaining clasps- things that if hit by the force of a bullet (being stopped by a ballistic protection, but the shockwave of the force continues to go through), would cause more damage as they now become penetrating objects as the shockwave pushes them into the body.

I put this up over 2 years ago on this forum and for my OCs does wear them when needed (on missions), but is not counted as an extra layer of protection.