Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

by Piero Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 2:34

When I say exceptional, I mean exceptional. People have been shot through the heart with high powered rifles and continued fighting long enough to return fire. A central nervous system hit can take a person out of a fight pretty much immediately, but good luck trying to reliably achieve those in a fast moving gun battle.

I don't believe I ever advocated a lot of scrounging around a lot for other weapons on the battlefield, nor have I ever recommended not preplanning and knowing how to handle your weapons properly or what they're capable of.

As for the .32 NAA, well... I doubt your looking at it this way, but I sometimes feel like you're treating it as if it's a magic bullet. The 9x19mm is extremely common, and as such there's a lot of crappy ammunition out there for it. There's also some seriously potent stuff that has been performed well in actual combat. It has a larger bullet with more force behind it then the .32 NAA does, and with the proper ammunition, it will significantly outperform the smaller round in pretty much any area you care to name, be it penetration, expansion, energy transfer, or all three combined.

It's probably not really a big deal to treat the .32 NAA as a somewhat capable weapon, but treating the .32 NAA as a capable weapon while holding something like a SiG P239 in contempt it a bit silly I think. About the only advantage the .32 NAA has is that it happens to be even more compact then the P239 happens to be.

by Piero Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 21:39

I'm going to act a bit pre-emptively here based on what I saw when scrolling up in the chat.

I never intended this as a 9mm vs. .45 debate. Both of those are considered to be adequate rounds with the right ammunition. With those two, it's basically a matter of whether the shooter prefers more damage potential per bullet or a higher ammunition capacity and easier rapid fire. (Well, okay, there's the issue of whether good 9x19mm ammunition is available, and whether .45 ammo is available at all, and such, but let's not overcomplicate things.) Most of the fictional characters I write use 9mms because that's what makes sense given their backgrounds.

The .32NAA is a different story in my mind however. There was once a meeting between a large group of experts (law enforcement trainers, people with experience studying wounds, etc.) relating to handgun effectiveness. Their conclusion: they agreed unanimously that the most critical factor with a handgun's potential effectiveness is having adequate penetration to reach the vital organs. After that's achieved, then one can worry about bullet size (see the 9mm vs. .45 debate for instance). The FBI 12 inch minimum was set for some very good reasons based on what was required to effectively reach vital parts of the body with certain types of hits. The .32 NAA, when using that particular hollowpoint, barely achieves 2/3rds of this standard, so I think it's capabilities, while impressive for such a small pistol, are questionable. In fact, that particular group of experts would probably opt to load a gun chambered in that calibre with FMJ ammunition over that particular hollowpoint design.

One major point of consideration here -handguns don't actually have enough energy to do really serious damage through energy transfer. A lot of people will, for psychological reasons, give up when they perceive that they have been shot, but if they don't, it won't matter whether the round was a .22 or a .45 from an energy transfer standpoint, because neither one will actually transfer very much energy. Wound profile is another matter, of course.

by **ElfenMagix** Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 21:54

The 9mm is not a godsend round either. Many experts consider it as a Defensive Round. "It will do its part, if you do yours..." This is a major reason why the law enforcement here in the states, starting with the FBI and trickling down to the local police, is slowly migrating back to the .45ACP round, and many to the 1911. Like the USA's experiment on adopting The Metric Measuring System in the 1970s/80s, using the 9mm in law enforcement for many was a nice experiement. Some will stay with it, others wont. They choice is theirs.

Again, there is that funny word: Choice.

Many who used the .32NAA loved it.
Currently there is one source for its ammo, but they will be licencing it out to others soon.
Most who used the .32NAA are in law enforecment, and most of them also use the .45 and not the 9mm. Their reviews on 'Guns and Ammo", "Rifle & Handgun", and other gun magazines, have stated so. They swear by the gun for its performance, durability, and ease of one. Of all the reviews I read, the one complaint I ever heard was the trigger pull being a bit to hard (10 pounds). As far as I remember, 10 pounds is the standard trigger pull on many guns, and you can get a competitant gunsmith to lighten it if you needed to.

Again- its choice. I like the .45ACP and the .32NAA rounds, and their repsected guns- the 1911 and the 32NAA. I'll give the 9mm the due respect it deserves but peronally I would not want it even if my life depended on it. I know many here like the 9mm, and I respect that. But dont trod upon my wants and beliefs because I'm not agreeing with you. I'm not doing that to you, dont do it to me.

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 21:57

I thought most US Law Enforcement Agencies use .40S&W.

by **ElfenMagix** Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 22:12

I got nothing to hide...

Chat Room logs wrote:[00:55:52 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi Kisk!!

[00:56:21 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : yo Boomer!!!

[00:56:34 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi Elfen!!

[00:57:32 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Kisk-Question?

[00:57:35 28/06/09] sasahara17 : Anyone looking forward to that GI Joe movie? I'm really not sure about that one.

[00:57:38 28/06/09] * ElfenMagix shakes his head at Piero's responce on Wepaons Stretched to their Limits thread...

[00:57:58 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I would have to think about it, Sasahara

[00:58:18 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : No Lady Jane = Me waits 4 DVD

[00:58:47 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : good point, Boomer

[00:58:50 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Elfen-Personally I like the 9x19.

[00:59:07 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : But I think he REALLY likes the 9x19.

[00:59:33 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : As in...

[00:59:40 28/06/09] * boomer_gonz clears throat

[00:59:49 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I understand that, Boomer. but I think I will have to get 1911 Fanactal fundemental extremist on him.

[01:00:00 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Piero: The 9x19 is da greatest ammo evar!!

[01:00:15 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Ah.

[01:00:31 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Bringing up the Browning era?

[01:00:36 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : Fanactal = Fanatical...

[01:00:46 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I may have too Evil

[01:01:07 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Kisk-Question!

[01:01:19 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : LOLZ @ fanaticism

[01:01:39 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi GG!!

[01:01:39 28/06/09] Ggultra2764 : Hi folks

[01:02:05 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I used to have a playboy article on .45 vs 9mm (cira 1977). The arguements were valid, but I like the cartoon best:

[01:02:33 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : LOLZ

[01:02:41 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Any images? Evil

[01:03:13 28/06/09] sasahara17 : Hey Piero!

[01:03:14 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi Piero!!

[01:03:21 28/06/09] sasahara17 : Hey Ggultra!

[01:03:27 28/06/09] * boomer_gonz takes shelter

[01:03:30 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : 1 big mutha-f'er holding a .45 1911 to the forehead of a peep squeak holding the 9mm to the mutha f'er's chest. The peep squeak was the one that was sweating.

[01:03:40 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : hello Piero.

[01:03:57 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : LOLZ

[01:04:01 28/06/09] @ Kiskaloo : Yes, Boomer?

[01:04:07 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : That's awesomez!!

[01:04:11 28/06/09] @ Kiskaloo : I might see GI Joe in the theater, but probably DVD that one, too.

[01:04:33 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Kisk-What is your stance on dry humping?

[01:04:36 28/06/09] sasahara17 : @ Kisk, you really aren't one for the theatres are you Kisk?

[01:04:46 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : unless my cousins stole it, I should still have it somewhere

Again, this is a matter of choice.
But I have to ask you this- have you ever fired any sort of weapon?

In the past, you have answered 'No.' and added reasons about living in Canada and the laws there.

My answer to the same questions is yes- including the .45, .38, .32, .25, .22, many rifles and shotguns, and some historical items that won the west. I, my friends and family have owned guns, rifles and shotguns for as far as I can remember, and when I get my finances back in order, will get a firearm in my life again. I know what it takes to own a firearm and use it. I know that numbers mean squat when you have to make a decision in pulling that trigger when you have to save a life or end a crime in progress. I know that within a certain distance, where to aim and whoat areas to hit to kill or to keep the bastard alive for questioning later. And finally, I know what is the capability of the gun in my hands, its limitations and its flaws. I am not some young punk who picks up the fire arm and is told to point it to a general direction and pull the trigger indiscriminately- spray and pray. I have shot on the range, for the job and for defense- and those will be the only reasons why I will ever pull the trigger again. I dont make excuses about what I know because I know through experience, not researching things to death. The choices I make is based on those decisions.

There's that funny word again: Choice.

by **ElfenMagix** Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 22:17

Kiskaloo wrote:I thought most US Law Enforcement Agencies use .40S&W.

Most law enforcement agencies are going back to what worked well with them. The 9mm experiment is over for much of them, but it still continues with others.
The FBI, The Marines, Special OPs, and others are heading back to the .45ACP and the 1911 (S&W version of it) as far as I was told.

by MikhailN Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 23:23

ElfenMagix wrote:I know that numbers mean squat when you have to make a decision in pulling that trigger when you have to save a life or end a crime in progress. I know that within a certain distance, where to aim and whoat areas to hit to kill or to keep the bastard alive for questioning later. And finally, I know what is the capability of the gun in my hands, its limitations and its flaws. I am not some young punk who picks up the fire arm and is told to point it to a general direction and pull the trigger indiscriminately- spray and pray. I have shot on the range, for the job and for defense- and those will be the only reasons why I will ever pull the trigger again. I dont make excuses about what I know because I know through experience, not researching things to death. The choices I make is based on those decisions.

I quoted this simply because I like it and though my experience with handguns is limited to the Sig Sauer P226, I understand what you mean and can empathize.

Most of the time personal arms are chosen based on experience. Personal feel is that as long as the operator knows what the thing in his hand can do for him when munitions are flying then it's ok. The last thing you want is to bring some MP5 chambered for 9mm to counter-snipe some chap one-on-one 500yards away with an AI AWP. You'll die wondering why your rounds didn't kill him.

Since most of the time (esp. in the armed forces and police department) weapons are standard-issued, then you'll have to take a look at their "doctrine" and what they emphasize on. Examples include the US military where they assume that a 'hit' would put the combatant out of action and hence the choice for the easier to handle 5.56mm; or certain agencies in countries where Hollow-Point rounds are banned and hence need to use Hydra-Shok rounds.

My bottom line: Whatever floats your boat and gets you home alive

by **ElfenMagix** Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 23:48

MikhailN-

by Piero Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 0:36

Well, I'll admit that even I sometimes get the impression that the degree to which my research outstrips my hands on experience is a bit ridiculous. Laughing

And I'm certainly not going to try to argue that I'm qualified to handle a handgun in combat.

Anyhow, I still think some of the things I dredged up come from credible enough sources to have some merit (the FBI standard on penetration, for instance) but I've come to the realisation that I've probably debated something way past the point I should have... again. I have a bad habit of doing that it seems.

by Awinnell Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 6:42

9mm is still the Nato standard pistol round, only special forces get a choice

by **ElfenMagix** Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 19:05

And look at the choices that Special Ops uses, its not the 9mm.

This has always been and always be about choice. Some guns and rounds maybe superior to others. Some may perform better going through a block of gelatin and produce some nice tracks. But what matters most is what happens in combat. And this is where practice in marksmanship is made so one can score better in combat. In the end- 2 idiots facing off in a room with different guns and different ammo rounds, will all depend on who hits who first and where.

by MikhailN Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 19:32

ElfenMagix wrote:And look at the choices that Special Ops uses, its not the 9mm.

This has always been and always be about choice. Some guns and rounds maybe superior to others. Some may perform better going through a block of gelatin and produce some nice tracks. But what matters most is what happens in combat. And this is where practice in marksmanship is made so one can score better in combat. In the end- 2 idiots facing off in a room with different guns and different ammo rounds, will all depend on who hits who first and where.

Some still do use the 9mm NATO. I just depends on the considerations of the unit and the situation. The 9mm was considered easier to handle (recoil-wise at least, when you compare to others like the .50 Desert Eagle) and quite low-powered. These are important especially for hostage rescue teams (or whatever your country wants to call it) where they really don't want the round to plough through the bad guy and bounce around the room. That also happens to be the reason why some police departments don't use sniper rifles with 7.62mm ammo exclusively but also deploy accurized sharpshooter rifles with lower powered ammo like the AR-15.

Training does play a big role, but sometimes certain situations do dictate that some ammo or weapons are out of the question

by **ElfenMagix** Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 20:22

MikhailN wrote:Some still do use the 9mm NATO. I just depends on the considerations of the unit and the situation. The 9mm was considered easier to handle (recoil-wise at least, when you compare to others like the .50 Desert Eagle) and quite low-powered. These are important especially for hostage rescue teams (or whatever your country wants to call it) where they really don't want the round to plough through the bad guy and bounce around the room. That also happens to be the reason why some police departments don't use sniper rifles with 7.62mm ammo exclusively but also deploy accurized sharpshooter rifles with lower powered ammo like the AR-15.

Training does play a big role, but sometimes certain situations do dictate that some ammo or weapons are out of the question

Actually what I BOLDED in your text is an issue with NYPD shoot outs. The standard gun of NYPD is the Glock (17 and 19, with a few rare 23s). Seasoned officers trade in their guns for a SiG 9mm or a Springfield Armory 1911-9mm Cops not using the department's 9mm standard are left on their own as to what services they can receive from the department armory. This includes limiting their yearly weapons allowence for maintenance and repairs.

Many famous (and non-famous) shoot out cases involving the NYPD seem to show a distrubing case of 9mm rounds being too powerful and going through the targets they shot, hitting other people behind them or things.

For me it seems that this is not the case. A .45 when it hits, stays within the body. The 9mm, unless it hits bone in its travel, goes right through the body, even if it is a hydra shok or hollow point (both are used in NYPD, as well as the FMJ) bullet. Furthermore, NYPD officers using the 9mm tend to empty out their magazines and quickly reload to continue the shooting, as where police using any other ammo does not (esp. true with those who do use the .45ACP). Cases like Amadou Diallo (shot 41 times) and Sean Bell and his friend (shot 50 times). And these are only surface cases, with police shootings happening more often than one would think. The problem here is improper training of the police and the use of Spray and pray tatics involved. I still contend that the 9mm is a defensive round, but it is also a dangerous round when in the wrong hands (or in the hands of the improperly trained).

by MikhailN Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 22:10

ElfenMagix wrote:
MikhailN wrote:Some still do use the 9mm NATO. I just depends on the considerations of the unit and the situation. The 9mm was considered easier to handle (recoil-wise at least, when you compare to others like the .50 Desert Eagle) and quite low-powered. These are important especially for hostage rescue teams (or whatever your country wants to call it) where they really don't want the round to plough through the bad guy and bounce around the room. That also happens to be the reason why some police departments don't use sniper rifles with 7.62mm ammo exclusively but also deploy accurized sharpshooter rifles with lower powered ammo like the AR-15.

Training does play a big role, but sometimes certain situations do dictate that some ammo or weapons are out of the question
Actually what I BOLDED in your text is an issue with NYPD shoot outs. The standard gun of NYPD is the Glock (17 and 19, with a few rare 23s). Seasoned officers trade in their guns for a SiG 9mm or a Springfield Armory 1911-9mm Cops not using the department's 9mm standard are left on their own as to what services they can receive from the department armory. This includes limiting their yearly weapons allowence for maintenance and repairs.

Many famous (and non-famous) shoot out cases involving the NYPD seem to show a distrubing case of 9mm rounds being too powerful and going through the targets they shot, hitting other people behind them or things.

For me it seems that this is not the case. A .45 when it hits, stays within the body. The 9mm, unless it hits bone in its travel, goes right through the body, even if it is a hydra shok or hollow point (both are used in NYPD, as well as the FMJ) bullet. Furthermore, NYPD officers using the 9mm tend to empty out their magazines and quickly reload to continue the shooting, as where police using any other ammo does not (esp. true with those who do use the .45ACP). Cases like Amadou Diallo (shot 41 times) and Sean Bell and his friend (shot 50 times). And these are only surface cases, with police shootings happening more often than one would think. The problem here is improper training of the police and the use of Spray and pray tatics involved. I still contend that the 9mm is a defensive round, but it is also a dangerous round when in the wrong hands (or in the hands of the improperly trained).

I learn something new every day. Seriously, this is new. I was told that the 9mm wasn't a powerful round (I suppose I forgot to ask what they were comparing against Razz

) and that's the reason why HRTs use 9mm NATO. Lesson learnt: Take everything with a pinch of salt.

By the way, I checked with Wiki and it seems that the kinetic energy of .45 ACP is less than a 9mm NATO. head bang

by LoC978 Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 16:44

depends on the load, but generally, yes. the 9x19 travels faster and penetrates further than the .45 ACP... but not enough to go through even a single layer of kevlar (barring specialized rounds). that's pretty much why I consider the .45 to be a superior round for hitting flesh. it's got more surface area, a generally flatter profile, and travels slow enough not to over-penetrate in most cases. The advantage to 9mm: higher capacity magazines.
also, as to recoil, it all depends on the person. A .45 tends to push back slowly, while a 9mm snaps upward quickly. I find a .45 easier to absorb with a locked elbow and relaxed shoulder, while a 9mm goes all into the wrist.

by **boomer_gonz** Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 17:04

It's funny that I should think of this now. My uncles have always said that no firearm has shortcomings(unless it was made by Colt), they each have unique attributes that must be taken advantage of.

I've transferred this range of thinking to my OC's. Alpha has been out manned more times than he'd like to remember. He likes the 9x19's penetration in this regard as it carries with it the possibility of taking out multiple opponents in one shot.

Just as he regards the Stechkin as a preferable room sweeper by flipping it to auto, cocking it sideways, and letting the recoil do the work.

by **ElfenMagix** Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 17:12

MikhailN wrote: I learn something new every day. Seriously, this is new. I was told that the 9mm wasn't a powerful round (I suppose I forgot to ask what they were comparing against ) and that's the reason why HRTs use 9mm NATO. Lesson learnt: Take everything with a pinch of salt.

By the way, I checked with Wiki and it seems that the kinetic energy of .45 ACP is less than a 9mm NATO.

I will admit- Piero does have a few things right- the differences between the 9X18 and the 9X19.
With Glocks- they use the 9X19 round, which seems to be a problem here in NYC.
Very few guns can accept both rounds with little or no modification, but they are out there.

by **ElfenMagix** Mon 29 Jun 2009 - 21:37

MikhailN wrote:By the way, I checked with Wiki and it seems that the kinetic energy of .45 ACP is less than a 9mm NATO.

The problem is this: The Human body is very elastic, especially when you would think when it is least likely too.

When shot by a 9mm, the bullet tears at the flesh and the bullet passes through the body. Energy transfer that is not used to tear the flesh for the bullet to go through is very little. Some who have been hit with 9m fire say that it was like being stabbed hard and fast. Most who are shot by 9mm fire do not usually fall back (immediately), because the bullet had gone through them.

When shot by a .45, the bullet uses more energy to tear the flesh due to its larger size, and it travelling at a slower speed allows more tranfer of engery to the body. This happens in a linear or exponantal rate (I forget which) from total energy of bullet transfered to the body. Thus the body is getting hit with the full force of the kinetic energy and the bullet stops inside the body. This also causes internal blunt force trama to the body around the bullet. Those hit with a .45 (or simillar engery transfer of bullets) say its like getting poked followed by a hard punch (depending on the force of the bullet, a .45 is more like getting hit with a baseball bat). With total engery being transfered from bullet to body, the body falls (most of the time).

In this case, kinetic engery means little if there is no transfer of engery, which would let a bullet go through the body. To allow maximum of transfer of engery from those bullets which goes through, you have to target and hit a dense boney part of the body (Pelvis, Skull, Upper Limbs). Note- this is to take down a body on one shot. If you want to kill person- target other sensitive areas (mid chest for the heart, frontal part of the skull to hit the frontal lobes of the brain, Adam's Apple of the throat to let them drown in their own blood, back of the bottom of the skull to severe the spinal cord).

You can learn alot from studying Grey's Anatomy. There is a reason why I linked it Evil

by funkmachine Sat 26 Sep 2009 - 22:01

i have wondered if a 7.62x39mm revolver can be done or maybe a Mauser c96 or it full auto copy the m712 easyer than youed think as all you need to ajust for the 14mm gap from 7.62x25mm Tokarev to7.62x39mmnote that you have a mag in front of the trigger so you dont need giant hands.

56.00 mm (2.205 in) overall length is not to long for a revolver as .500 S&W Magnumis only 0.3mm shorter and a lot smaller in all other diameters

the main advantages is that 7.62 is cheap and need a type 3A/3 vest to stop

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 26 Sep 2009 - 22:05

Phillips & Rogers 7.62x39mm revolver

by **ElfenMagix** Sun 27 Sep 2009 - 21:57

Very nice.
But why is the revolving chamber longer than the bullet? I mean, shouldn't be be even as possible with the round so it goes through the barrel cleaner? Or is it just the design of the round?

by funkmachine Tue 29 Sep 2009 - 7:23

its just the design of most revolvers to have that gap.
that is why 99% of them cant use silencers but the Nagant revolvers can as the round is moved in to close the gap.

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