A little help with concealed weapons...

Upon turning the age of 21, most of the birthday boys go over and squander their money on beer and alcohol. But when I turn 21, I plan on buying a pistol, 500 rounds of my weapon's respective ammunition, and probably a membership for my local gun range. The problem is I can't decide on what to buy...And the fact that I'm only 15 but that's another topic. Anyhow, I'm staying up all night since I can't sleep...So I'm reading all these articles on google about concealed weapons carry (in the USA) and their ammuniton. I just need some opinions of yours. Here's my guidelines. (Oh recommendations for holsters are great also)

• Must... have a prominent record in being reliable. (I.E not jam...Or blow up in my face.)
  
• Needs... to be comfortable in big meaty hands.
  
• Caliber needs to be... appropriate for concealed cary. (Sorry, I'm not going for a DE .50)
  
• Caliber needs to be... powerful and make big holes (IN MY TARGET NOT MY WALL).
  
• Not a Magnum
  
• Not single action (Anything not like a 1911 the safety features are just ghastly)
  
• Auto loader
  
• Cost...Effiecient? (Then again, you can't pay enough for security...)
  
• Oh I just edited this in... Must have a tactical look, nothing flashy. (Hence the reason why I hate AKs...Unless fitted with NATO ammunition, picatinny rails, and fully matte black.)
  
• Umm...Yeah no silver finish. Matte black only.
  
• Yeah...Just edited this in also; Must have the capability to be fitted with a Picattiny rail with tactical accesories.
  
• If possible, please denote the cost.
  

Well, I appreciate in advance for those who reply to this thread. Millie grazie!

Farbanti wrote:Not single action (Anything not like a 1911 the safety features are just ghastly)

Says who?
I have owned several 1911 and their variants, and never had a problem with it. NEVER!

You have a lot to learn about guns before making such a decision when you come of age. And you have a lot of time to grow on too- literally. I mean by that, you need to physically grow as your hands may not be large to hold a 1911 now, but it will when you hit 21. Also, if the 1911 is such a shody piece of work, why is it that every competition shooter out there has it as their competition weapon? And why is it that it is the choice of gun to be used and own by specails ops and special forces? So what the gun's design's over 100 years old- Having it last this long means that it is a reliable piece of machinery! You treat it well and it will never fail on you, unlike others which will stop working if you drop it in a puddle of water!

For you, I would recommend a 1911-Super.38 . Just a bit smaller than a 1911 by some builds, but still the same respectable mechanics of a 1911. There are other variants of the 1911 which uses different ammo, including NATO's 9mm rounds. Here's couple of examples of the 1911 in super .38:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/098289041715.html
(this one is better:) http://www.impactguns.com/store/022188702576.html

Also- read up on your gun information. Going by word of mouth and by non-experts, will only get you a cheap gun and a lot of trouble when it jams on you during a time when you need it most! I dont think I cant say anything more than what this website has to say about it: http://www.sightm1911.com/

I agree with what Elfen has said.

You can't just go by what you read and what you hear. You have to go out and actually SHOOT guns in order to see which one will fit you best.

For example, I myself don't like Glocks. Nothing wrong with them, just my opinion. They don't feel right in my hands. However, I really like USPs and 1911s. I have relatively small hands, so the USPc and single stack 1911 fits my hand well, and all that leads to comfort and ease of shooting. They both "point" nicely for me.

I also think Springfield XDs are really nice, but I don't have much experience with them and I want more.

Farbanti wrote:

• Yeah...Just edited this in also; Must have the capability to be fitted with a Picattiny rail with tactical accesories.
  

I hope you realize that all those rails and tactical accessories mean jack for concealed carry right? In fact, most concealed handguns have less on them and more smooth/rounded so they're less likely to bind up/get caught in your clothing for when you need to draw.

But no worries, I mean you're only 15. You've got a whole 6 years to figure all of this out . Never too soon to have someone (of legal age) reliable and trustworthy to help you get some first hand experience.

That said if you have shot tons of guns before, then please forgive my "sagely" tone. It's great you're trying to get some insight into what you want for the future.

A gun?

Wow you're almost the same as I am...already thinking of buying a gun at an age? Well, I'm 17 myself and I do have that thought too...

well anyways,

I think my suggestion would be the USP .45? The gun Solid Snake uses in Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty.

The Springfield Armory pistols have always been my CF of choice. In fact I plan on getting another XD-SC3 next month.

I also own a SIG and a couple CZ's. As far as not jamming, the CZ75 is it. The blowback mechanism is far superior than the recoil operation you find in most pistols.

If I can find one, I would jump at the chance to get an Obregon .45.

sounds like you want a .45:

Farbanti wrote:Caliber needs to be... powerful and make big holes (IN MY TARGET NOT MY WALL).

...so the XD subcompact is out...
the only subcompacts I know of that are .45s are the GLOCK 30 and 36. (the 36 is what I carry)

If you don't need it to be quite that small, I'd recommend a Springfield XD 4" compact.
If you are willing to settle on a 9mm or .40S&W, the Springfield XD subcompact.

If ya hadn't noticed, I swear by XDs and GLOCKs... they're the only handguns I've used that have never failed me. EVER. My CZ, while not a bad pistol, does occasionally jam. It's probably the cheap mags I use that does it... I'm just not willing to shell out $50 per mag on a gun I don't use very often... I run $20 mags in my GLOCKs, and they've never once jammed.

One more thing about buying guns... before you buy, make sure it's comfortable in your hand. If you can, fire it before you buy it. What works for me may not work for you.

Get a sig a lot of people in texas have them (texas concealed weapons =allowed )But one of my favorite concealed weapons is the mini beretta( tho theyre hard to find) you can get them in.45 calibre form.

just noticed...

Farbanti wrote:If possible, please denote the cost.

I paid just under $400 for each of my GLOCKs, and just over $400 for my CZ... but they were bought locally and with a military discount. Online, your average GLOCK will run you approximately $550, while a Springfield XD will run you $520ish. No idea what I could get an XD for, though...

LoC978 wrote:One more thing about buying guns... before you buy, make sure it's comfortable in your hand. If you can, fire it before you buy it. What works for me may not work for you.

I echo that. It's gotta feel good to shoot. I would more than likely pick up a Glock if only they fit better for me.

Hence that's why I'd personally look at a Springfield XD. LoC knows what he's talking about.

Alright I need to sort these out right quick...

Alright about my preference with the 1911... um I didn't say it was shoddy workmanship...I just said that the safety features were just ghastly. I mean that by the M 1911's "at the ready" position. The hammer always needs to be cocked back in order for it to be at the ready...
I like the history of the 1911, it served in major wars and I know that it comes with it's prestige of serving in such wars. But that cocked feature really bothers me, I just don't want my pistol to snag to take it out. Either that or I waste precious seconds cocking the pistol first.

Dang I have to go I'll get on this later. >.<

did I ever mention that I REALLY wish the US military would retire the M9 in favor of this?
Yes, the 1911 outlived its usefulness... but so has the M9, dammit!

*sighs*

I'll never get over how big the M9 is for a 9mm, double-stack or no.

I hope you realize that all those rails and tactical accessories mean
jack for concealed carry right? In fact, most concealed handguns have
less on them and more smooth/rounded so they're less likely to bind
up/get caught in your clothing for when you need to draw.

All I asked was if the weapon could be fitted with a picatinny rail. Yes it is illogical in defense situations but when in situations where it could be applied I think that would be a great quality a weapon could have (but that is probably another topic.) . \I'm just trying to look at features in a weapon that can be useful.

Hmm...Now I'm interested in the Springfield XD I like the sub compact and the looks of it also, then again all the weapons o the XD Springfield line. All the XDs have a very nice tactical feel to it, which I like. When I get back to the States, I think the first weapon I'll try out would be one of the weapons of the XD series. Ummm...Would anyone happen to know the availability of this weapon as gun range rentals? I think I'll go with it if I like the feel of it in my hands.

Umm about the sub compact...Will it fit in big hands? I know it's a nieve question but I'm just curious if grips could be modified. The site never mention modifications on grips except the Springfield XD Custom, or probably I didn't see it. Anyhow, I'm just curious.

how big of hands are we talkin'? I've got a friend who's 6'3" and about 260lbs of muscle who has huge hands... he can fire my 36 (which is about the same size and shape as an XD subcompact, only a little thinner) just fine (incidentally, he can also fire his .50AE Desert Eagle one-handed), but the grip only reaches the middle of his palm (it only goes down to my ring finger). I guess it's just a matter of what you're comfortable with. If you can easily and comfortably conceal a full-framed handgun with a 5" barrel, get one. If not, move down in sizes until you find one that's easily concealable. I'm not the biggest guy in the world (only 5'9", and I have a long torso and short legs), so full-frame or even a compact pistol can be a little bulky for concealed carry on me, unless I put it in an underarm holster (and I hate wearing overshirts all the time). The same might not be true of you.

Also depends on whether or not you feel comfortable having a "hanging" pinky finger when holding a sub-compact. I know some people who can't stand having the pinky not resting on the grip, and for other people it doesn't bother them at all.

Personally, I don't like having a hanging finger, but as I have relatively small hands, it doesn't really become a factor for me. And some sub-compacts come with the grip extensions on the magazines that helps even more.

I have carried pistols for maybe two years now. SIG Sauer P239, GLOCK 19, Taurus PT111 and now my Colt Combat Commander.

There's no reason you just need to buy one single gun. You can get a lighter gun for carry, and a larger, heavier gun for general target shooting/fun.

I don't think you can go wrong with poly frame guns like the GLOCK or XD, they're relatively light and have very high capacity. You don't really even need a subcompact per se, since their compact models are quite concealable.

As far as concealing a 1911 goes, I always carry mine cocked and locked. It doesn't snag. It looks scary to people who aren't in the know, but I've never heard of anyone have a cocked 1911 go bang on them... the 1911 is also a very slim gun, due to the single stack magazine, and it's not so much slide length that is the issue when concealing guns, but the size and bulk of the grip that really prints. I like the 1911 because it is extremely pointable (unlike my SIG) and it has the best trigger pull out of all the pistols I've fired, crisp and precise.

I don't think any of the three big chamberings are particularly nasty recoil wise, i.e. 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP.
Picking the right holster can dramatically improve concealability as well; My IWB holster for the GLOCK is *much* more concealable than my SIG Sauer P239 in the OWB holster. Just my two cents.


And what's this nonsense about the 1911 outliving its usefulness... as far as I know, it's currently the trendy gun for *every* manufacturer to be producing right now... SIGArms, Taurus, S&W, Springfield Arms, Dan Wesson, Para-ordnance, Kimber... and of course Colt

Farbanti wrote:Upon turning the age of 21, most of the birthday boys
go over and squander their money on beer and alcohol. But when I turn
21, I plan on buying a pistol, 500 rounds of my weapon's respective
ammunition, and probably a membership for my local gun range.

well i would squander all my money for the 5 G that i worship, Girls, Guns, Gunpowder (explosives), Gambling and... Gelatto and alcohol

but im already 18 and im already getting these stuff, im already amasing my persoanl armory now!!

it depends on where u live and who are your sources really

my advice is go to the local gun shows. ask before touching but look at the different pistols and see how they feel in your hand. it might the best gun in the world, but if it doesn't feel natural when you hold or shoot it it ain't worth squat. Also check the different firearm magazines, many have review and overviews of different weapons


secondly I would a small or intermediate caliber. and an inexpensive weapon. there are some very nice qaulity .22, .32, .380, and 9mm for under $200 USD. my first gun was/is a Bersa Thunder .380 and have been qute happy with it. once agan the gun mags can be helpful, and when one catches your eye check google, often you can find links to some very useful info.

why a light caliber and low cost gun? If you don't have much experince wth firearms this is a good first step. .22 is cheap dirt cheap. you can shoot it all day long and not break the bank or your wrist. in addition if you don't like [i loved my Walther p-22 in 22 long rifle, until come time to cleaning it. that was such a pain, i ended up selling it]] or feel ready you can move on to somethin else.

The P22 is a pretty bad 'first' gun for a few reasons: it's not accurate compared to similarly priced .22LR pistols, and for the most part it's made of pot metal (MIM injected zinc slide). I've fired several examples of the P22, including one with the 'fake compensator' which proceeded to blow off and take the front sight with it. Also, every Walther P22 I've fired doesn't seem to enjoy feeding anything but more expensive premium .22LR ammunition like CCI Stinger hollow-points, negating much of the price advantage of shooting .22LR. All in all I'd say it was a cool looking 'stinker', which is a let down because Walther usually makes such nice guns. If you absolutely must have a plastic fantastic .22LR, go for the Beretta U22 Neo; I've handled and fired a few and it's a nice pistol.

For developing your skills to see if you actually *improve*, you don't want a gun that is inaccurate, even if it looks cooler.

Just for ease, I think the M92F isn't so bad...


although the round is rather dull being a 9mm...

http://www.fusionfirearms.com/

1911 Fusion Custom Tactical Commander, 10mm Elite Package

Now that's a gun...

carbonheart wrote:And what's this nonsense about the 1911 outliving its usefulness... as far as I know, it's currently the trendy gun for *every* manufacturer to be producing right now... SIGArms, Taurus, S&W, Springfield Arms, Dan Wesson, Para-ordnance, Kimber... and of course Colt

I meant for the US military (or at least those of us likely to enter close combat).
No firearm ever outlives its usefulness when it comes to nostalgia.

Delta Force, Green Berets, Force Recon, SWAT teams across the US, use 1911s... I guess they must have lots of 'nostalgia'.

1911s can easily be the most accurate, reliable, powerful close combat handguns, hands down... By no stretch of words are they perfect, no gun is, but they have awesome triggers, great ergonomics, a powerful chambering, noteworthy accuracy, and they're quite slim for carry. I carry my Colt Commander Commander every day in a Galco Fletch thumb-break holster...

They don't look futuristic, or 'tacticool', in most circumstances, but if you want that, get an XD45; It'll be cheaper, lighter, have more magazine capacity, but it'll also be bulkier, and it will never have a 1911 trigger...

If I for some reason wanted some high cap 1911 clone for carry, Para-Ordnance makes the Warthog, double stacked 10+1 officer profile.

http://www.paraord.com/product/product.html?id=7

In the case of a new shooter, though, I agree with you, a compact or subcompact plastic gun, i.e. GLOCK 30 or XD45c is a great starting point.

everything the 1911 has over the XD deals with the subjective 'feel' of the weapon. Which, as we all know, is an incredibly important factor when choosing a weapon. Just so happens that there are as many different feelings about the 1911 as there are people who have handled it. to me, it's very... 'meh'... I can use 'em, but they're slightly uncomfortable, and the performance they deliver is by no means greater than any other .45 I've handled.
As for trigger squeeze, you can get the same performance out of any pistol ever made. I realize the feel of it is different, but from where I stand, a modded GLOCK 21 trigger has a better feel to it than a modded 1911's. But, much like your posts, thats just one guys opinion.

Show me an XD with a trigger anywhere near as nice as a good 1911 trigger, and I'll believe you. The XD45 trigger from the example I fired can only be described as 'mushy'.

It's more complicated comparing any 1911 to a gun produced by a single manufacturer, as there are dozens upon dozens of 1911 manufacturers out there, with varying quality. I have fired lame duck clones of the 1911 (Auto Ordnance Pitbull) that were horrible and uncomfortable on the hand, and I have fired very awesome pieces.

In any case, the 1911 design has served for practically 80 years, through some of the nastiest battles, and it's still going strong. You can't say the same about the XD.

I still think a maximum of eight rounds is too few, though...

They make double stack 1911s, if you really need that extra capacity... If you're carrying a gun, you should also be proficient at reloading it at combat speeds, that applies to guns with 8 rounds or 18.

In the case of concealed carry, if you can't hit the threat with 5 rounds, you're not going to hit them with 15.

If there's more targets than can be hit with five rounds, you'd be in trouble.

I don't doubt that, but you'd be in trouble even with 15 rounds if there are more targets than can be hit with five rounds...

I know many people who conceal carry on a daily basis and are active in the local carry politics. MANY people carry S&W J-Frames, 5 shots of .38 or .357, and maybe a speed loader. And that's more than adequate for them. Lots of people carry GLOCKs and XDs, and 1911s, though. Ultimately, you commit to carrying an arm, and your choice will always have pros and cons, I'd take a slimmer 1911 over a big bulky XD or GLOCK, but some people want more firepower. A small revolver would make either a big XD45 or a 1911 look pretty large, and for some cases, it's the only gun you're going to be able to easily conceal...

I don't really feel inadequately armed with my Combat Commander, and a pair of extra magazines on my gun belt. It's just a handgun, though, and I don't expect to win a war against the local Vice Lords with just a 1911, nor could you win one with an XD45, GLOCK 21, what have you.

I'm happy people have the same love for handguns I do!

But then again, you'd be in trouble if there are more targets and they're using body armor.

A 9mm wouldn't do much punch against that...

How about a small SMG tucked and hidden safely? Or the modified/updated 1911 series that has been around? That'll do I think...

...you could buy some high explosive ordnance like an RPG or something and run to the local Vice Lord and blow him and his boys with a single shot at his office

Don't attempt that. But if you do, you didn't heard the idea from me

We're talking realistic scenarios, Panzer.

I still think that fifteen rounds would give you more of a fighting chance, here.

I still think that fifteen rounds would give you more of a fighting chance, here.

Quoted for truth. Yep, its enough to give a fighting chance

But wouldn't 15 rounds of 9mm be insufficient? I mean these days flak jacket comes cheap...

wouldn't a .45 packs a better wallop against them?

Nachtsider wrote:I still think that fifteen rounds would give you more of a fighting chance, here.

You still need to keep in mind the issues of concealability. Fifteen rounds of 9mm isn't hard (my GLOCK 19), but try that with .45ACP and the situation is different.

With any compact pistol, you're going to either compromise by using a weaker round (9mm) or less total capacity (.40S&W, .45ACP). I would rather have each round do more damage, have more stopping power, than just carry more total rounds in a magazine.

The added advantage is I get a slimmer overall grip thanks to single stack, which helps concealment. If you don't think that's significant, try concealing a big GLOCK 21 (or a Para-Ordnance P14-45, to be fair) versus a GLOCK 36, and you will see it's much easier to conceal a less bulkier grip that doesn't print that much, versus a large bulky double stack. That's important just due to the comfort of concealing such a weapon over a long day; If you just have a J-frame revolver, that's better than the big service pistol left at home...

In any case, check this out: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm

I've seen people get up after getting shot down by a 9mm. I have yet to see that happen with a .45. More rounds dont mean squat if the people you shoot get up and continue to go after you.

In a worst case scenero that I heard of in my police days- a guy high on PCP (Angel Dust) was shot several times in the head and chest by .38's and 9mms by the poilce while he was doing his hulk impersonation routine of wrecking the nieghborhood. Finally one detective came in with a .45 and literally blew the guy away with 4 rounds to the head. PCP (Angel Dust) is a kind of drug that will disassociate the brain from the sensory nervous system and force the body to display supernatural abilities, in short, the brain will not listen to a body that saids its dead and cotninue to animate it as it needs rage on. In order to stop the person on PCP, you have to kill its brain and that within itself is not an easy task under the circumstances of how the drug operates. It requires massive damage or else it would just anger him.

I'd rather have stopping power than sheer numbers. Numbers dont mean anything against those who are just too stupid to drop down and die. Certain drugs out there like PCP will do that to a person.

orac wrote:my advice is go to the local gun shows. ask before touching but look at the different pistols and see how they feel in your hand. it might the best gun in the world, but if it doesn't feel natural when you hold or shoot it it ain't worth squat.

I agree with that entirely. When I decided that I wanted a pistol (last fall), I went to a local gun show and spent the entire time holding various pistols, to gauge how they felt. I kept track of the models that felt good and did some research on the internet for each pistol to see what owners liked and disliked about each one. When I was finished, I ended up getting a Springfield Armory XD5 Tactical 9mm. For me, the compact/sub-compact guns didn't work well because they were simply too small for my hands.

I realized I can conceal two guns just as easily as I can conceal one... GLOCK 19 tucked snugly next to my Colt.




Now, if I wasn't afraid of my pants falling down at some inopportune time, I could throw the SIG P239 in the back... Again, I don't really think I'm paranoid enough to carry two, let alone three guns...

carbonheart wrote:Show me an XD with a trigger anywhere near as nice as a good 1911 trigger, and I'll believe you.

one man's "nice and good" is another man's "mediocre" (and still another man's "piece of shit". I do know a man who shoots more often and more accurately than I do who regards the 1911 as such... but he's a revolver man).

carbonheart wrote:It's more complicated comparing any 1911 to a gun produced by a single manufacturer, as there are dozens upon dozens of 1911 manufacturers out there, with varying quality. I have fired lame duck clones of the 1911 (Auto Ordnance Pitbull) that were horrible and uncomfortable on the hand, and I have fired very awesome pieces.

admittedly, I've only fired one 1911, ever. However, it was a custom Springfield of recent manufacture that the owner swore up and down was a "work of art".
To me, the trigger was just too goddamn sensitive. Couldn't even feel the motherfucker. I guess I just like mushy triggers. don't get me wrong, I'm not fond of a 15lb pull, but I also want more than a few ounces, and a decent throw length.
Regardless, the ergonomics of the thing may work just great for many people, even a majority of people... they just don't work for me. "Ergonomic" is just another subjective term, as far as I'm concerned. The science behind it is pretty much the same as making general rules of health. They just don't work for everyone, and there's probably not one person out there that they all work for.

carbonheart wrote:In any case, check this out: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm

-pretty much why I choose to carry six rounds of .45ACP rather than ten of 9mm.

Elfen wrote:PCP

...I remember watching COPS one time and seeing a guy on PCP stand up against a barrage of 9mm, .380, .357, .45, and even one .44mag... he kept going for his gun until he passed out from blood loss. If memory serves, they shot him over 30 times...

carbonheart wrote:I realized I can conceal two guns just as easily as I can conceal one... GLOCK 19 tucked snugly next to my Colt.




Now, if I wasn't afraid of my pants falling down at some inopportune time, I could throw the SIG P239 in the back... Again, I don't really think I'm paranoid enough to carry two, let alone three guns...

From the looks of the pict- try sitting down. Its not 'concealed' if it jabs you in the groins and you make wincing faces of pain...

But in all honesty, if you can get away with it, you do as you need.

I've carried a few guns for my work at the agency, and always wore them in a pancake shoulder on the right side (pulled it out with the left). Sometimes I wore it on the left and pulled it out with the right. Then again, I used to wear Armani & Hugo Boss suits that were taken off shelf and taylored for my size (including holster room). Though I prefered the 1911 or any variant thereof (the AA M1984 I had back then), I was given almost any thing they had at the time. I remember a .38 Auto I was given for a job that kept snagging its trigger to the inside lining of the suit and I ripped up a couple of good jackets before sending it back. It was a good gun for fire fight, but it always messed up my draw.

My wife had the standard .32 ("police woman's" version of the policeman's .38) revolver. 6 shots, and she kept it in her purse. She carried it along with an order of protection with her at all times. Notice the use of past tense- The one time she did not carried the gun was the one she was taken down.

In the Police dept. I was given the S&W .38 revolver when things went to city-wide emergencies (in NYC auxillary officers are not supposed to carry.). I sent it back and asked if they has any 1911s. They managed to find a few. I was the only Auxillary that carried a .45 during those emergencies, after I proved that I can handle one.

Holsters are a tricky thing, like the gun, you have to get a feel before you buy them. A good holster and good gun combination will increase your changes of living in a firefight.

Re: Loc978

I'm sorry about your friend who hates 1911s. Mine is just a factory Colt 1911. No fancy pants custom work, so my trigger just has a normal, four pound clean break, not some hair trigger. I like the 1911 platform for the same reason I liked the AR-15, they're both produced by many manufacturers, thus creating a large market of inexpensive spare parts; If something *ever* breaks, and guns do break, you can get spare parts within days. Your results may vary with different guns, for example, Springfield XD: you are at the mercy of SA if you want to get it fixed, since they do not sell all the spare parts, so that necessitates mailing it in to them and having them do work on it, and that will take a few weeks at the very least. Magazines are also pretty cheap, considering the sheer volume of them made, compared to something far more specialized, like my 9mm P239, which has magazines that can easily cost $30 each.

Re: ElfenMagix

I wouldn't say Galco's IWB is that uncomfortable. If I'm going for the best concealment, I think that's the best gun/holster combo out of the guns I have on hand. Otherwise, I just prefer to carry my 1911 (Galco Fletch High-ride) or my SIG (Galco Concealed). I don't carry two guns, generally, but if I had some really snubby revolver (Detective Special in Royal Blue?), I might consider it.

I generally just buy leather holsters since they're a bit easier on the gun, and I find them more comfortable to wear. I think the most important part is finding a good gun belt, though. I need a replacement gun belt, my old safariland one is disintegrating.

I can't imagine farbanti expected this much response to his simple question about what a good starter gun for concealed carry would be

A shop owner in a gas station had 3 young men stand up his store, one of them was armed with a .45ACP 1911. The shop owner moved to the register, pulled out his gun, and before he could shoot, all three of them starting running for their lives. The owner shot 9 times, hitting two of the men in various places, and they never shot back. They just ran.

One man walked into a store, having committed 3 successful robberies in the past, demanding money with a gun. The cashier did as told, waiting for an opportune moment. When he turned around to leave, the cashier pulled out his gun and fired 3 times. The robber with the gun just ran, sprinting after a fence. Just as he started climbing over it, he was dropped dead by the 4th shot.

Two illegals broke into a home with the intent on kidnapping the 12-year-old girl. They had already kidnapped 2-3 others, and stolen large amounts of property. One of them was armed with a handgun. They went upstairs to discover she was a multi-championship skeet shooter with a shotgun. She hammered buckshot into the first man with the gun, and the other just ran, knowing she was the only one in the house. She shot him as well, and he died in the street.

One woman got lost by the docks trying to find her way home. She came to a dead end when five men surrounded her car. One held a knife at her and told her to get out. She pulled out a revolver her husband happened to leave behind, pointed it and said, "I have a gun. You better back away from my car or I will shoot you." All five of them sprinted away for fear of their lives in every direction as if Jack the Ripper were after them.

Another shop owner was running his jewelry store business when three men walked in guns blazing. One was carrying a shotgun, one a handgun, and a third with another weapon (don't remember specifically). The store owner's wife was hit, and everyone went to the floor.
The store owner pulled out a .380 Revolver and shoots once with little aim. All three of the robbers bolt out the door without another thought, running frantically for their very lives.

I noticed that people that don't live in the United States tend to think differently about gun battles. While talking to a Chilean, I asked him what he thought happened when the man shot the revolver. He said, "They shot him to **** for his stupid bravery." He was in shock and awe when I told him the truth.

One robber walked into a bank, frightening everyone around him, holding the clerk at gunpoint. The man behind the counter struck the gun. He didn't even take it, did't hurt the robber, or anything, just hit the gun. The man, terrified for his life, turned and ran for the exit.

Almost midnight, I tried to see if a coffee shop was open, and found that it closed. That's when a man jogged up to my car and asked if I could take him to get some gas. He had no money, only a credit card, and even gave me the wife with baby at home story. He wore a leather jacket, rode a sports bike, and had some jeans. I counted at least 4-5 places he could carry a weapon.

After asking some more questions and examining him, I let him into the backseat, catty-corner so he wasn't right behind me, but not in the passenger's seat next to me. He was silent for a minute then said, "I see your shooting targets there. That looks like some good shooting." I replied, "That was with a .357 magnum at 15 feet, 3 yards." He was impressed, and I could hear his voice get shaky. He was afraid of me, chattering the whole way back from the gas station. He tried to make himself as least hostile as possible. He was more afraid of me than a police officer.


People don't realize that criminals with guns know they are wrong-doing. Children who are doing wrong, even bullies, typically stand down, hide in fear, or go defensive when caught. In almost every single situation, more than 90%, when a law-abiding citizen pulls out a gun to defend himself, the criminals are running in terror, regardless of what the gun is, or who the person is, even if its a woman, and sometimes a child.

Nachtsider, it is extremely rare when someone defends himself against multiple attackers that resulted in a long-lasting gun battle (gang wars are the exception, but that's a war, not an attack with an innocent bystander). One gunshot from an innocent citizen will force criminals to flee in terror. They shoot back at the police because they're trying to avoid prison, and they know this is the law, and the law has rules and regulations. Civilians don't, and they will kill you. Criminals know this by instinct.

Even my personal story, I didn't even have a gun with me. He just saw targets with bullet holes in them, and he started showing signs of nervousness. You wouldn't get that reaction if he were in the backseat of a squad car.

....

If it so much resembles a gun, goes boom like a gun, you're in good hands, regardless of what's in your hands. Sometimes you don't even need a gun, depending on the willpower of your foes. Just showing that you're ready to fight back is enough. While at a large department store with my sister, a man with a straight face from the opposite side started walking towards us, then directly behind us, constantly looking around and wiping his face. There's at least 6 meters of room here, there's no need to be brushing up against people. I pulled out my keys from my pocket, jingled them up in the air, and then held my car key between my fingers in a fist like what Pinocchio did. As soon as I did that, the stranger turned a different direction, walking along the building and away from the parking lot. I'm not sure if he was planning anything for sure, but I made sure I let him know that if he was, he wasn't going to accomplish it without getting hurt or hospitalized.


As for something that won't punch holes through your walls, but will punch holes through your target, you can't escape that. One man pulled the trigger to his handgun, shooting through the closet, the clothes, into the microwave, out the microwave, through the next wall over, and into the garage, and knocked out a headlight to his car. He said from that point on, he always thought through what he did more carefully, thinking of the two kids he had. What was he armed with? .50? .45 magnum? .357 magnum? You can do that with a .40! Even .380 has been known to punch clean through drywall.

It's important than when doing a room-clearing check of your house what you're armed with, and where you're pointing. But home defense requires a bit different task than, say, conceal and carry. Shotguns are hard to miss with, create a very loud bang, and can hit more than one intruder, leaving very powerful and complex wounds. While it does leave a lot of holes in the wall and does considerable damage, it has fairly poor penetration power.


Now for my own gun-searching peril:
I, too am looking for something with which to conceal and carry, sometime by the end of this year. But I'm left-handed, and have just under medium-size hands with very short and stubby fingers. Revolvers fit me best so far, but they're clumsy to carry. S&W's M&P is large and difficult to handle, even in 9mm for me. The XD (in .40S&W) is my favorite out of all that I have used, and it's a lot easier to clean than most other guns IMO (and it's more accurate than the M&P!). But the trigger safety catches my left pointer, biting it sometimes when I click the trigger. The .380 Bersa Thunder fits nicely in my hand, I liked shooting it, but it is a pain in the arse to disassemble for cleaning, carries expensive ammunition, and it is extremely inaccurate. Worse yet, wasn't made for lefties.

As long as the gun is under $600 (US), I'll buy it if it fits, but I might start looking into revolvers.

Perhaps one of my favorites above these is my father's and grandfather's (passed down) .357 magnum Coonan. I'm small for a person, but I'm stable, so I don't mind the kickback, and I find myself more accurate with it than any other gun I've shot with so far. But the sheer size of it makes it extremely difficult to conceal, and only carries 7 rounds. It's also a family heirloom and had a piece chipped. It seems nobody in our immediate area can fix it as the gun has been out of production for some time.

A little thread necromancy going on here.

I switch on and off between guns, depending on the mood, environment, etc.
My primary carry is a full size Smith M&P40. I've had two stoppages from factory loads, both were cheap practice loads and had solid primer strikes. I've probably put about more than 1100 factory loads through it, so do the math. My reloads can be iffy at times, but it's my quality control, not the gun.

My second carry piece is a Smith SW990L, the compact, rounded off, Smith version of the P99. The size conceals better during the summer, which is why I bought it.

Every person who makes the decision to carry will end up with a box full of holsters eventually. There's one for every occasion, and personal tastes towards gun, fit, draw, and concealment will change.

The mindset of carry is also important. If you're not comfortable in your carry, it'll show, and you could be outed. Most people take "The Wal-mart walk", a trip to a 24/7 Walmart late at night to simply walk around and get comfortable with carrying. Avoiding fiddling with your clothes, leaning to the side, or other things takes time and practice.
When carrying, I never bend over at the waist, only at the knees, because my grip on the M&P can print.

An interesting thing happened yesterday. A man stepped up to the counter to get a fishing license. As he approached, I noticed he was wearing a sweatshirt ad jeans, and had pulled his pants up a little as he came up the aisle. I'm guilty of that move when I'm carrying, so it caught my attention. When he reached for his wallet for his ID, I caught sight of black leather just behind his hip on his right side when his shirt rode up a little. It's probably only the second time I've ID'd someone as carrying for certain.
I watched him out of curiosity as he looked around and waited for his license, and he tended to protect that side. I was tempted to ask him what kind he was carrying, but refrained. It's none of my business.

Most people would not have picked the guy out, so this represents something that carriers have in their favor. Most people won't think a bulge on the belt is a gun, preferring to consider it a phone or anything else. Had the guy been carrying inside-the-waistband, I would not have been able to spot him at all.

OP, when you come of age, try out as many guns as you can and take the one that feels the best, not that has the most hype. Don't leave any out just because they have one feature and not another, because a some features you can do without.

Colonel Marksman wrote:A shop owner in a gas station had 3 young men stand up his store, one of them was armed with a .45ACP 1911. The shop owner moved to the register, pulled out his gun, and before he could shoot, all three of them starting running for their lives. The owner shot 9 times, hitting two of the men in various places, and they never shot back. They just ran.

Noobs. You don't carry a gun, much less brandish it, if you're not prepared to use it.

Nachtsider wrote:

Colonel Marksman wrote:A shop owner in a gas station had 3 young men stand up his store, one of them was armed with a .45ACP 1911. The shop owner moved to the register, pulled out his gun, and before he could shoot, all three of them starting running for their lives. The owner shot 9 times, hitting two of the men in various places, and they never shot back. They just ran.

Noobs. You don't carry a gun, much less brandish it, if you're not prepared to use it.

That's the thing with criminals. Unless they're professional hitmen with a reward to kill you, a trained assassin sent by a government, or a mob boss leader, they are noobs. Criminals don't take guns to use them, they take them to intimidate people and hold up the law if necessary. They don't plan for innocent civilians pulling a gun on them. Police officers get shot at over 250% more times than innocent civilians with guns.

If I plan on breaking into a home, I'm going to do it with the confidence that I can overpower anyone in the home. I might take a knife, or go with a gun (that tends to be more intimidating). I rob my first house with a woman and her two children. They cower, do as I ask, I take things and with so much power over them, rape the woman. That success carries on to the next house. This one has a man and his teenage son, and I know that he personally doesn't believe in guns. The man tried to call 9-1-1, but I cut the phone line. Their household items are mine. The next house has an alarm system, so I cut power and the phone line. There is a dog that attacks me, but I shoot it. Now I move quickly in the empty home to take some things and get out.

The next house, I am more cautious about intelligence. This home has a father, a mother, and a young girl. All seem to be a happy family. They don't have an alarm system. One night, I saw the mother and father leave. This is going to be a piece of cake. I remember the first house with a woman and her two children. I can even kidnap the girl if I wanted. I cut the phone line, kick the back door open. She flees upstairs. I go up there, she must be scared, and...

WTF? She's got a f***ing shotgun! I'm running the hell outta here... *BANG*... now I'm bleeding all over the floor and fixing to die...


And that is why Texas has a lower crime rate than California or New York. That's also why Israel has an extremely low crime rate. Soldiers go on leave (home) with their combat gear. Almost every single neighbor is no more than 3 meters from an automatic assault rifle, and maybe even grenades. I don't know about you, but as a criminal, that is not the best neighborhood to be robbing.

Don't gundamentalists claim "An armed society is a polite society"?

Don't gundamentalists claim "An armed society is a polite society"?

Absolutely true. You don't pick a fight or get angry with someone who's armed. Those who actually know the law, and know the capability and effects of a gun, typically prefer to walk away from a confrontation than escalate it. Who cut who off in traffic or who said what about whose mother is really not worth bullets flying and people dying.

There are always the odd ones out though. A few people get a carry permit, or even just buy a gun, and think they're bad-ass. Alcohol and/or drugs are a common denominator in a large percentage of "rage" or "domestic" shootings. These people are the exception rather than the rule.

I carry a gun as often as I can. I don't want to shoot anyone with it (except maybe zombies). But I also am not going to put the security of my life and those around me in the hands of someone who is threatening it and/or committing a criminal act. Doing that makes you a dumb-ass living in their own flowery world. The real world is dangerous, and made more so by those who exploit weakness for personal gain.
If someone has decided to put my safety at risk in order to commit a crime, it's only fair that their life be at risk while committing it, right?

Noobs. You don't carry a gun, much less brandish it, if you're not prepared to use it.

Absolutely. A lot of people have trouble making that leap of logic. "I just want to scare them" is the tagline of someone who has not thought it through. Usually a "What if they come at you after that. Will you shoot then? When is the last line crossed?" will steer them into the right train of thought.

As a defensive carrier, you draw your gun when there is every liklihood you will have to fire. Many encounters have been avoided simply by uncovering it in the holster. While considered brandishing, and even threatening in some of the less civilized locales (Kalifornia, for instance), often the knowledge that you actually are armed can divert the bad guy intentions away from you. You must still be ready to go all the way, because some nuts just want to die.

On the high-cap/single stack debate, I read of a couple getting jumped and beaten near-death by eight or more assailants at once. In a situation like that, you'd better believe I'd be shooting and glad I have more than eight rounds, regardless of how many it took to get the survivors to flee.

You're right on both counts, Mav. Most people have never been put into a situation where it is "Us or Them," and even then, being bullied does not count. One has to be in a "Life or Death" and those are only happen during a crime as either victim or as one who would step in to stop a crime in progress (officer of the law, good samaritian, etc.).

Kiskaloo wrote:Don't gundamentalists claim "An armed society is a polite society"?

... I love Texas!

but won't it lead to cowboy country all over again?