Question for Alfisti

Kiskaloo's mentioned in his thread about the suits of James Bond that you're a good person to ask about suits.  I'm not very knowledgeable about suits, but since they're pretty much the de facto standard garb for handlers I figure they might be worth learning about.

One of the big questions I have is what tends to differentiate Italian style suits from other types of suits?  Are there any typical features that tend to define them?  Or are they too diverse to even establish a general list of features?

From Page 5 of the Alfisti's Outfitters thread:

What Kisk has there is a pretty good primer.

To add a bit more, for me at least, Italian suiting tends to be a bit more structured and masculine with stronger lines to it: so broader shoulders and lapels, that sort of thing. I think it also has more room for a certain amount of flamboyance, if that's the right word, so there is more room for stronger colours and the like.

That's a really nice visual guide there.  Thanks!

Why am I not surprised that the American style looks like it would be the best for concealing large handguns?   Piero's going to have a lot of trouble concealing those big Beretta pistols he favors.

The allowing for stronger colors is nice, but I think a lot of my OC handlers would show some restraint.  Adriano seems like the type who might go for something a bit more brightly colored, but then he tends to wear a leather jacket anyway.

Honestly, I think the American sack suit is probably more a result of America being not quite a style concious as Europe and the, umm... larger American size. Since the Italian profile tapers at the waist and is wider through the chest and shoulders, it probably would not be too difficult to cut to conceal a handgun under. The British style would be more difficult... perhaps it's a good thing James Bond carries a smaller handgun.

That said, a good tailor can work wonders.

As to colours: there's room for more colour, that doesn't mean the colours have to be bright. Frankly, you can apply bold colours to any of the above cuts, just that I generally tend to picture the Italian dress sense as more flamboyant (and able to get away with it).

Personally, I tend to favour suiting more in the British tradition, cut a little closer: but I'm skinny. Jethro and Monty also both tend to have their suiting in the British tradition, with a similar slimmer profile, and generally in tones of grey. Danilo, on the other hand, keeps his suiting in the more Italian tradition and in black.

Alfisti wrote:Honestly, I think the American sack suit is probably more a result of America being not quite a style concious as Europe and the, umm... larger American size. Since the Italian profile tapers at the waist and is wider through the chest and shoulders, it probably would not be too difficult to cut to conceal a handgun under. The British style would be more difficult... perhaps it's a good thing James Bond carries a smaller handgun.

That said, a good tailor can work wonders.

As to colours: there's room for more colour, that doesn't mean the colours have to be bright. Frankly, you can apply bold colours to any of the above cuts, just that I generally tend to picture the Italian dress sense as more flamboyant (and able to get away with it).

Personally, I tend to favour suiting more in the British tradition, cut a little closer: but I'm skinny. Jethro and Monty also both tend to have their suiting in the British tradition, with a similar slimmer profile, and generally in tones of grey. Danilo, on the other hand, keeps his suiting in the more Italian tradition and in black.

What sort of colors and patterns would you recommend for Italian style suits worn by characters who aren't particularly flamboyant?  Should I just stick to black for them?  Or would something like Navy work for an Italian suit?

I'm actually tempted to try to get your advice on a whole slew of characters.

Piero wrote:What sort of colors and patterns would you recommend for Italian style suits worn by characters who aren't particularly flamboyant?  Should I just stick to black for them?  Or would something like Navy work for an Italian suit?

Honestly, it all depends on the character. I mean, personally, I'm not fond of black suiting: I find it too dark, too heavy, and you loose too much form... but I still have characters (well, character) whom wear it. I also have a black tuxedo, but the time there was spent in fabric selection to try and counter the issues.

For my money: yes, Navy is always good (every man should have a Navy blazer, because it's the masculine equivalent to the Little Black Dress: good for everything). In fact I would say any darker blue, up to and including TARDIS blue. Much beyond that though and it starts becoming less of an "everyman" colour and something you need to be able to walk the walk with. Darker greens would be worth a look as well and, in either case, I would be tempted to run a very fine check through the whole thing to break up the block colours. Even a very dark mustard could work or, on the other end of the spectrum, maybe even a beige.

Greys are also an option, personally I like charcoals and light grey, but it's something I personally prefer paired with the more dapper British cuts. That said: that's only personal taste (as is my tendency to avoid black) and they're perfectly okay to pair with an Italian cut.

The nice thing about black is you can pair it with pretty much any color of dress shirt you want, though granted I'm not sure if many of my OC handlers would tend to wear very colorful dress shirts anyway.

I'm thinking Piero might tend to wear navy.  Though then again his cyborg tends to wear that colour too, so I'm not sure if that's a good idea or a bad one.

I suppose one thing I should be considering is the fact that these handlers are probably not going to wear the same suit every single day.  So a lot of them might actually own more than one color of suit.

Is there anything along the lines of skirt suits in Italian fashion?  I do have a female handler among my OCs.

Piero wrote:Is there anything along the lines of skirt suits in Italian fashion?  I do have a female handler among my OCs.

Prada and Armani both make women's business wear, including skirts, blouses and jackets.  Here is a blog post from 2012 that includes some Armani Collezione outfits.

Kara has two Prada business outfits: a blouse and pencil skirt, as well as a button front-shirt and belted skirt, that she can add a jacket or coat to.

   

Piero wrote:Is there anything along the lines of skirt suits in Italian fashion?  I do have a female handler among my OCs.

As Kisk pointed out: there is certainly female suiting available from Italian houses.

In all reality though, suiting tends to be fairly universal these days and, while we talk of an "Italian" cut or something being in the British tradition and, while a particular style may be more prevalent in a locality, that doesn't mean being in that country limits one just to the cut or style associated with it. That said, you may be looking harder to find someone to produce a British styled suit in Italy.

Not to mention, as was discused before, you're probably going to be working harder to conceal a full sized firearm under the slender cut of British tailoring.

Piero wrote:The nice thing about black is you can pair it with pretty much any color of dress shirt you want, though granted I'm not sure if many of my OC handlers would tend to wear very colorful dress shirts anyway.

I'm thinking Piero might tend to wear navy.  Though then again his cyborg tends to wear that colour too, so I'm not sure if that's a good idea or a bad one.

I suppose one thing I should be considering is the fact that these handlers are probably not going to wear the same suit every single day.  So a lot of them might actually own more than one color of suit.

Oh, don't get me wrong: I wasn't saying you shouldn't wear black, it's just not to my own personal taste, and the thing about fashion is that it's pretty subjective.

If they are wearing a suit every day, then I would assume they would have two or three to choose from at least, probably with two trousers to one jacket for each. I mean, you need something to wear while the other one's at the drycleaners. If they're only using them for missions and the like though, for occasional wear, then one or two would be fine... or it might even be multiples of the same thing or variations on a theme; a "uniform" of sorts (plenty of people in real life have done that). My character Danilo always wears exactly the same thing, and I assume he just has multiples of the same black suit, shirt and tie. Jethro on the other hand has two Savile Row suits that I tend to dress him in: one in charcoal and the other a three-piece light grey but with lighter fabric as well. Monty's suiting follows down the same lines as his, including the slender, dapper, cut.

As to suiting in navy with a cyborg dressed similarly, and whether it's a good idea or not, the question is: is Piero the sort of personality to care?

I have heard that Einstein kept a closet of identical grey suits so that he wouldn't have to worry about what to wear.   I imagine most of my handlers would have some variety in their outfits though.  The trick is figuring out which features distinguish one handler's suits from another's.

I've been thinking Priscilla staged a fashion intervention on Diana's behalf after seeing some of the clothes Piero had for her. (To be fair, Priscilla first saw Diana when she was suited up for a night op in the countryside.)

With Diana I'd originally imagined she'd wear something similar to Etta's signature grey outfit, but darker in color and with a longer skirt (granted the shortness of Etta's skirt can be chalked up to artistic license). But more recently I've been thinking Diana's clothes should be more distinct and not just a palette swap of Etta's (though Diana's clothes wear differently than Etta's due to Diana's greater height and pronounced gangliness).  A tartan pattern skirt was one of the things I'd been considering.

Honestly, I don't know Diana well enough to comment on clothing choices for her.

In reality, I would say: roll with what feels right for the character. Not all characters need to have good fashion sense, and their clothes don't have to be fashionable. Some characters are best suited to a shirt and shorts, whilst others need an Armani suit to bring out their personality: sometimes what someone's fashion sense should say is "this person knows nothing about fashion/doesn't care". Ditto guns, cars, etc. If someone's not a suit person, but needs one for work, slap them in something cheap and conservative off the rack... whilst Mr. (or Ms) Armani are having theirs made to measure.

But really: clothing is too personal of a choice (even if we do not realise it ourselves) to apply a blanket rule over.

Haha, the vast majority of my GSG OCs are actually not fashion experts, at least not when it comes to cutting edge fashion.  Though to be fair to Piero, he actually looks pretty decent in a suit.  Its fashion trends for young girls where he doesn't have a freaking clue (and neither do I for that matter ).

My understanding is that Italians have a tendency towards fairly formal dress, but I'm not sure how much that applies to younger children.  Though I suppose if Diana is a bit overdressed for a kid her age then so are Henrietta and Triela.

I suppose I have some idea how most of my OC handlers dress.  Piero wears fairly nice darker colored suits (are there any "close to black" colors?), Andrei's suits tend to be gray and more utilitarian (likely not as well fitted), Adriano likes colored shirts (including pink) and has a tendency to wear a leather jacket unless he has to wear a proper suit jacket, Norina might go for skirt suits though I've been questioning that a bit, and Gabrielle's suits are fairly nondescript (not ridiculously cheap, but not something that stands out as particularly nice either).

Piero wrote:Haha, the vast majority of my GSG OCs are actually not fashion experts, at least not when it comes to cutting edge fashion.  Though to be fair to Piero, he actually looks pretty decent in a suit.  Its fashion trends for young girls where he doesn't have a freaking clue (and neither do I for that matter ).

My understanding is that Italians have a tendency towards fairly formal dress, but I'm not sure how much that applies to younger children.  Though I suppose if Diana is a bit overdressed for a kid her age then so are Henrietta and Triela.

I tend to have a tougher time with looks for young girls as well... working with Monty tends to be a case of scaling down adult looks and Raych's look doesn't really change.

As to the Italian tendency toward more formal dress... I don't know if it's so much formal as just a greater emphasis on looking good. I can't remember who made the original observation, but I thought it was quite a good one: in places like the US, England and Australia, the general view is that the footpath is this sort of anonymous backstage to life: so you can go down to the shops looking daggy, or wear sneakers to work and only change into heels at the office. We only go on show when we want to be on show or when we think it matters: at work, going to dinner or a show etc. In European countries, particularly the likes of Italy and France, you're on show the moment you walk out the door, and the dress sense reflects that.

Those are generalisations mind, but I think they hold a fair amount of water.