Cyborgs and (bacterical/viral) Illness?

Hey guys,

I'm not sure if there already exists a thread about it but because I'm actually not in the condition I open a new topic.
(If it already exists, then i'm sorry.)

Because i'm actually in a bad condition too, i was thinking and began wondering if our cyborgs could get a cold or flu.

I know in the early chapters Dr. Bianchi asked Henrietta if she has fever. That let me think about it:
Do our cyborgs can catch a cold or flu and need to take some days off and rest to cure their illness.

Schas given theire cyborg nature i would say that can still get bacterial, viral, or fungal infections do to the fact that they still have biological parts. However I would think that the severity and length of such infectiosn would be less since they have a number of non natural parts that the pathogens would be unable to infect. Also I see the girls getting the best vaccines and other preventative measures possible to reduce their down time.

crazyidiot78 wrote:Schas given theire cyborg nature i would say that can still get bacterial, viral, or fungal infections do to the fact that they still have biological parts. However I would think that the severity and length of such infectiosn would be less since they have a number of non natural parts that the pathogens would be unable to infect. Also I see the girls getting the best vaccines and other preventative measures possible to reduce their down time.

So what i hear out there is that they COULD get a cold or a flu but with less time off like normal children of their age.

So instead of being off for a week or so they are maybe off to cure for just one or two days.

Someone wrote an excellent piece of fiction on ff.net titled Beatrice Gets a Cold.

That being said, I would imagine that they could get some types of illness. Much, if not most, of their organs are artificial, so that would prevent many types of infection, illness or injury.

I read that story it was a good one and kisk is right the ilness they could get would be linked to what was and was not artificial

Cyborgs can get sick. There are a few in fanfiction that mentions this. Even I mention that Rachel went through Toxic Shock Syndrome because of malpractice on the medical staff that worked on her and the SWA who did not catch it. She was sick and nearly died from it.

One could argue that Angie died from illness, though this is a medically induced illness, she went through a downward spiral lasting how many years from their account.

Like the others say, cyborgs can get sick from their natural organs. I'll take it further in that when the body gets some form of infection, the immune system kicks in and gives reactions like fevers, sneezing, coughing, etc. Without these reactions, the infection would take over and kill you. Something simillar of this happened to Jim Henson, getting a pulmonary infection that spread to all 5 lung lobes so quickly, drugs could not help him.

Yeah I agree, the cyborgs could get sick and be vulnerable to biological warfare. As the resistance to the cyborgs increased once the enemy became aware of their existence and resorted to greater fire power, I considered the different ways they'd plan to counter the government's efforts to stop them. This would include but would not be limited to diseases.
That's one of the reasons I came up with my OC Ayden; she is supposed to be one of the SWA's experiments in response to the growing threat the terrorist posed. She's has flaws, (mostly mental) but then again she's only a prototype.

ElfenMagix wrote:Like the others say, cyborgs can get sick from their natural organs. I'll take it further in that when the body gets some form of infection, the immune system kicks in and gives reactions like fevers, sneezing, coughing, etc. Without these reactions, the infection would take over and kill you. Something simillar of this happened to Jim Henson, getting a pulmonary infection that spread to all 5 lung lobes so quickly, drugs could not help him.

That all depends on whether or not the vital organs in question remain organic after a cyborg's reconstruction. Germs can't harm artificial lungs.

Nachtsider wrote:That all depends on whether or not the vital organs in question remain organic after a cyborg's reconstruction. Germs can't harm artificial lungs.

Well we know the brains are organic... so there's at least a chance of BSE/mad cow?

On a more serious note, and continuing with the brain; if that is organic then assumedly at least parts of the body's systems must be organic-ish (or at least a close enough synthetic analogue thereof) enough to support it. If they can mimic biological components well enough to support something as complex as a brain, who's to say they're not "good" enough to also support viral and bacterial infection?

Eh, speculating here.

surely they must be using anti rejection drugs as well? wouldn't that affect their immune systems ?

Alfisti wrote:Well we know the brains are organic... so there's at least a chance of BSE/mad cow?

On a more serious note, and continuing with the brain; if that is organic then assumedly at least parts of the body's systems must be organic-ish (or at least a close enough synthetic analogue thereof) enough to support it. If they can mimic biological components well enough to support something as complex as a brain, who's to say they're not "good" enough to also support viral and bacterial infection?

Eh, speculating here.

No, that's not frivolous at all, Al. You're right about their brains remaining undeniably organic, and the same probably holds true for their nervous systems their nervous systems (well, the spinal cord, at the very least). Which means neurotoxins could still pose a threat, as well as infections of brain tissue, such as meningitis and encephalitis. And mad cow disease.

Awinnell wrote:surely they must be using anti rejection drugs as well? wouldn't that affect their immune systems ?

Anti rejection drugs are used to prevent the body's immune system from damaging grafted organs and causing them to fail, as the immune system discerns the biological markers present on the surfaces of said organs' cells as foreign. They can work the other way, too, preventing residual immune response cells from the donor that lie within the grafted organs from migrating into the recipient's body and wreaking havoc. If the organs in question are synthetic, however, they would lack the biological markers that provoke the harmful immune response, as well as residual donor immune response cells. Also, why would anybody need to worry about graft versus host disease with synthetic organs, which the body's immune system cannot harm on account of them being synthetic? Boom - no need for anti rejection meds.

Nachtsider wrote:

Awinnell wrote:surely they must be using anti rejection drugs as well? wouldn't that affect their immune systems ?

Anti rejection drugs are used to prevent the body's immune system from damaging grafted organs and causing them to fail, as the immune system discerns the biological markers present on the surfaces of said organs' cells as foreign. They can work the other way, too, preventing residual immune response cells from the donor that lie within the grafted organs from migrating into the recipient's body and wreaking havoc. If the organs in question are synthetic, however, they would lack the biological markers that provoke the harmful immune response, as well as residual donor immune response cells. Also, why would anybody need to worry about graft versus host disease with synthetic organs, which the body's immune system cannot harm on account of them being synthetic? Boom - no need for anti rejection meds.

Quite right Natch and pretty much all of todays implants in use today like, replacement joints are made out of neutral materials like titanium and ceramics. Also with ceramics some are made in such a way that the host's tissue grows around the implant furthering its incoperation into the body. This does not include replacement organs and such which still carry a chance of rejection.

Nachtsider wrote:

ElfenMagix wrote:Like the others say, cyborgs can get sick from their natural organs. I'll take it further in that when the body gets some form of infection, the immune system kicks in and gives reactions like fevers, sneezing, coughing, etc. Without these reactions, the infection would take over and kill you. Something simillar of this happened to Jim Henson, getting a pulmonary infection that spread to all 5 lung lobes so quickly, drugs could not help him.

That all depends on whether or not the vital organs in question remain organic after a cyborg's reconstruction. Germs can't harm artificial lungs.

You just reminded me, when working with Christian Lithuanian Foundation, I discovered a rare mold that eats plastics. It infected several of the PC Keyboards, mice and PC cases that were made from plastic. Only way to kill it entirely was to dunk the plastic in heated bleach- a very caustic cure which requires protective gear. Dunking it in cold bleach only killed 80% of the mold. Most of that infected stuff was thrown out after a cold disinfecting job to keep it to a minimum. The stuff is festering in some New Jersey landfill right now.

Alfisti wrote:

Nachtsider wrote:That all depends on whether or not the vital organs in question remain organic after a cyborg's reconstruction. Germs can't harm artificial lungs.

Well we know the brains are organic... so there's at least a chance of BSE/mad cow?

On a more serious note, and continuing with the brain; if that is organic then assumedly at least parts of the body's systems must be organic-ish (or at least a close enough synthetic analogue thereof) enough to support it. If they can mimic biological components well enough to support something as complex as a brain, who's to say they're not "good" enough to also support viral and bacterial infection?

Eh, speculating here.

I believe that there are certain organs that cant be replicated synthetically - Kidneys for one. Hormones producing glands of the Endocrine system is another, as is the liver and digestive system. Lungs, Pancreas, Spleen and other smaller things are also included.

Kisk and I argued last year on this, he says that in Yu's Universe, these things have been solved. I say if its been solved then why is it not public domain to the Italian Citizenry? Of course our universes differ, and mine has more technological problems than his. In my world, outside of an artificial heart, these things are too big to reduce to fit inside a human body let a lone a child's body like Angelica. Ever seen the size of a Heart/Lung Machine or a Dialysis Machine? And the Liver has so many functions that all of them can not be replicated in a lab. So infection of these organs is very viable.

Alcohol absorption and break down is done by the liver. Without it, the glass of wine Triela (and the other cyborgs) had would have killed her through pure alcohol poisoning. We can argue that there is an artificial mechanism or drug that can break down alcohol in cyborgs but that would make them immune to being drunk, and several times, Triela was drunk when she drank wine.

Going back to my mold discovery; since artificial organs must be made from some plastic that 1) is immune to the host's body immune system from attacking it, 2) flexible to work in a moving body and 3) thin and porous to work in absorption and excretion, any infection that attacks that plastic will attack other plastics within the cyborg. This would be a very ugly death for the cyborg and one hell of a surprise for the medical team that does the autopsy.

Awinnell wrote:surely they must be using anti rejection drugs as well? wouldn't that affect their immune systems ?

Weaken the immune system and they become more susceptible to more infections. The implants have to be inert to the immune system. For Metals, its Gold, Titanium and Stainless Steel. For plastics (to date) is Gortex (used in waterproof fabrics and other things). Gotex is used in some BodMods.

Nachtsider wrote:

Alfisti wrote:Well we know the brains are organic... so there's at least a chance of BSE/mad cow?

On a more serious note, and continuing with the brain; if that is organic then assumedly at least parts of the body's systems must be organic-ish (or at least a close enough synthetic analogue thereof) enough to support it. If they can mimic biological components well enough to support something as complex as a brain, who's to say they're not "good" enough to also support viral and bacterial infection?

Eh, speculating here.

No, that's not frivolous at all, Al. You're right about their brains remaining undeniably organic, and the same probably holds true for their nervous systems their nervous systems (well, the spinal cord, at the very least). Which means neurotoxins could still pose a threat, as well as infections of brain tissue, such as meningitis and encephalitis. And mad cow disease.

Meningitis... well there's another reason for 'Etta to get all icky about kissing

That said, I guess the way I see it is that this would likely extend to the circulatory system, possibly lymphatic... pretty much anything which needs to interface with an organic component is going to need to be close enough to its biological base-model to keep those organic tissues supplied with oxygen, energy etc. As such there's at least a possiblity that they would also be a close enough analogue to support disease and infection associated with those systems. To answer Elfen a little as well, my personal approach (in my version of the GSG universe) is that lungs, heart... pretty much anything involved in supplying energy and oxygen will need to be tinkered with at least a little, just to cope with the greater energy requirements of the more powerful cybernetic body.

ElfenMagix wrote:Kisk and I argued last year on this, he says that in Yu's Universe, these things have been solved. I say if its been solved then why is it not public domain to the Italian Citizenry? Of course our universes differ, and mine has more technological problems than his.

I could think of a couple of reasons as to why the technology has not been made to the general citizenry... not lest of which is that part of the Cyborgs' remit is as a testbed for exactly this sort of technology. In which case it may well still be too early in its development stages to make available safely to the general populace, or even just prohibitively expensive. Another factor there is that the design life of, say an artificial heart, lung or liver for a cyborg only needs to be in the three to seven year range... possibly even shorter as they can seemingly be swapped out with resonable ease. For implantation into a human that design life would need to be longer... or the Government are just being tightwads

Honestly, Yu's pretty vague about the whole thing, so there's plenty of room for speculation. Personally I probably fall somewhere between the pair of you. I picture the Gen01s as having been mostly synthetic bar the brain and parts of the nervous system, but the Gen02s as being part biological and part synthetic... basically organs etc needed to run the more energy-hungy cybernetic body (so lungs, heart, circulatory system, maybe parts of the digestive tract, etc) being artificial and the rest left organic... with associated cost savings, etc. Either way, it's not something I (currently) really intend to touch particularly heavilly on in my own writing.

Gah! I just finished all my biology homework for the holidays and I come across this page .
Well, might as well add my two cents while I'm here.
I gotta agree with Alfitsi's reckoning on this one, that the First Gens are more artificial and the Second are more organic, thus more suseptible to disease, though both still have the more dificult to synthesise organs intact and organic. However, I would say that they are both equally susceptible to blood born diseases though, such as malaria. Even if they don't get sick from it they still become a carrier.
Secondly, there must be some pretty fantastic advances in the field of biology in Italy if they manage to synthesise white blood cells.

ElfenMagix wrote:You just reminded me, when working with Christian Lithuanian Foundation,
I discovered a rare mold that eats plastics. It infected several of the
PC Keyboards, mice and PC cases that were made from plastic. Only way
to kill it entirely was to dunk the plastic in heated bleach- a very
caustic cure which requires protective gear. Dunking it in cold bleach
only killed 80% of the mold. Most of that infected stuff was thrown out
after a cold disinfecting job to keep it to a minimum. The stuff is
festering in some New Jersey landfill right now.

Reminds of the time Russia was storing some sort of virus or disease (you'll have to give me a break if some of the details seem sketchy, I heard this story maybe four months ago) so that they could make a vacine if there was ever an outbreak. There wasn't an outbraek for a while, so they decided they didn't need it anymore and threw it away, literally. No disposing of it properly by burning, just throw it in the trash. Then one day some poor guys were looking around the dump for anything usefull, found this virus, and accidently spread it to a whole heap of other people. So then there was an outbreak, and the government couldn't create a vacine because they had thrown it out and caused the whole mess. I'm pretty sure it was when Russia was part or the Soviet Union, which would explain the safety standards; because we all know what Soviet safety standards were like. I hope you guys are keeping an eye on that stuff.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Secondly, there must be some pretty fantastic advances in the field of biology in Italy if they manage to synthesise white blood cells.

I think one of the theories bandied around (I remember it as being Voodoo's) was that the cyborgs' blood is similar to regular human blood, but not exactly the same... basically its makeup having been modfied to carry the extra energy and oxygen required to run their much more powerful muscles. Practical upshot being that, should they be injured, a transfusion of regular blood would only keep them going for a limited time as it would effectively thin out the mix... eventually ending in a severe hypoglycimic reaction. I was physics and chem, so will leave the soft-squishy biological working-out of other potential consequences to you.

Again though, keeping in mind that the same system needs to feed blood to the brain and any other "original" parts the girls still have (to a greater or lesser extent), then their blood must still be a pretty good analogue of the traditional red stuff... certainly enough, I guess, to be prone to all the normal blood-related complications.

Alfisti wrote:
Again though, keeping in mind that the same system needs to feed blood to the brain and any other "original" parts the girls still have (to a greater or lesser extent), then their blood must still be a pretty good analogue of the traditional red stuff... certainly enough, I guess, to be prone to all the normal blood-related complications.

You make a good point, though that does bring along it's own batch of problems, again relating to and of white blood cells and also to enzyme and protein production. The human body is an incredibly complicated thing, and being able to synthesise something that can do teh cells' jobs is rediculously difficult. Which is why I think that it's more than just ethical reasons as to why we haven't made cyborgs yetgot cyborg technology in reality (that we know of any way, in which case ethics still wasn't involved anyway). And yes, I realise that ethics aren't one of the Agnecy's prorities (I actually give them a thumbs up for this since true science has no place for ethics, as you might be able to tell, I ain't a humanitatian), but messing with organisms on that level, I would hate to think of how many subjects the Agency went through before they managed to get someone to survive the procedure, and then how many more before someone survived and was able to act, or even move normally. And not have permanant brain damage.
Back to the blood thing, do the girls still have bone marrow? I remember hearing (reading rather) that most of the bones were replaced. The blood would then have to be synthetic if they didn't have any marrow to produce the red blood cells, which are responsible for transprting oxygen and nurtients around the body.
Then again, depending on the synthetic:organic ratio, the cyborgs may nor require that much blood if it only needs to go to the brain and a couple other un-replaceable organs + wherever it needs to go through keep the blood healthy and clean, etc. That would mean that no blood flow is required for the limbs. Forget what I just said, Henrieta's arm bleeds on the first episode. Blood must go to the limbs.

They could also be using a plasma replacement material that can carry oxygen to a limited degree. If that was used then having red blood cells would be reduced. Another factor to consider is that viruses and bacteria attach to certain markers in the human body in order to cause illness and disease. (Much more important for viruses) I wuold gather that with cyborg construction some if not all of these markers could be absent and they would be functionally imune to those diseases. However they would be open to other conditions like the plastic eating fungus elfen mentions.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Back to the blood thing, do the girls still have bone marrow? I remember hearing (reading rather) that most of the bones were replaced. The blood would then have to be synthetic if they didn't have any marrow to produce the red blood cells, which are responsible for transprting oxygen and nurtients around the body.

Damn...that is a really good point.

I'm in the camp that believes the girls are carrying around at least as much blood as a normal human, and that this blood is a semi-synthetic blend which can carry chemical fuel to artificial muscles. As you rightly point out; red blood cells would still be required, therefore marrow is important. That's an issue which can send a writer back to the drawing board.

I dare say it would be inconvenient to grow living marrow inside composite bones so red blood cell production must be re-located somewhere else in the body. Might need to address that in a future story if I ever get back to writing again.

voodoo the spleen is the alternate source of production of red blodd cells it does this during fetal growth and contiunes somewhat as a baby this then later stops and it is used to store red blood cells and filter out the bad ones. The spleen can release those red blood cells in the care of shock. This could easily be adapted to teh cyborgs.

Professor Voodoo wrote:Might need to address that in a future story if I ever get back to writing again.

(Yoda Voice) "You will write... You...will...write..." (/Yoda Voice)

Professor Voodoo wrote:Might need to address that in a future story if I ever get back to writing again.

You'd better get back to writing, I've been waiting for my fix of E&M, or N&D for months now.

Professor Voodoo wrote:

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Back to the blood thing, do the girls still have bone marrow? I remember hearing (reading rather) that most of the bones were replaced. The blood would then have to be synthetic if they didn't have any marrow to produce the red blood cells, which are responsible for transprting oxygen and nurtients around the body.

Damn...that is a really good point.

I'm in the camp that believes the girls are carrying around at least as much blood as a normal human, and that this blood is a semi-synthetic blend which can carry chemical fuel to artificial muscles. As you rightly point out; red blood cells would still be required, therefore marrow is important. That's an issue which can send a writer back to the drawing board.

I dare say it would be inconvenient to grow living marrow inside composite bones so red blood cell production must be re-located somewhere else in the body. Might need to address that in a future story if I ever get back to writing again.

Bone marrow does more than produce blood though it is its main function. And in humans its found in the leg bones, arm bones, larger rigs and the back wings of the Pelvis. It makes up about 4% of a person's over all weight. Its second function is to produce white blood cells as well, for without the girls would die of infection. It also aids in bone repair in the large bone when they break.

Packing marrow into carbon fiber or metal tubes would not work as I can see it. There has to be blood vessels going in to the bone, which at the stresses the girls put themselves through, would break those vessels. But there has to be a way. Right?

crazyidiot78 wrote:voodoo the spleen is the alternate source of production of red blodd cells it does this during fetal growth and contiunes somewhat as a baby this then later stops and it is used to store red blood cells and filter out the bad ones. The spleen can release those red blood cells in the care of shock. This could easily be adapted to teh cyborgs.

Again, the problem here is the stresses the girls put themselves through can rupture a spleen. My mother was a seamstress for a clothing company in the 70's and had an accident that ruptured her spleen but no machine parts penetrated her skin or clothes. It involved her sewing machine exploding and hitting her in the stomach with enough force to rupture the spleen which is not much. A punch to the gut can rupture a spleen, that's how delicate it is.

But you are correct in using it as a second source.

I can see why Yu only touched lightly on this stuff, it's all exceedingly mind boggling.
Another thing I thought up, is what would the cyborg skin be made of, 'cause I remember Henritta crashing into and breaking a wall when her bag was stolen, so it would have to be tough, which led me to wonder how they get thier Vitamin D fix? Perhaps it's all part of the conditioning medication that they allso get all the vitamins and nutrients they require. However, how do they process these nutrients? Perhaps it's only me, but I assume that they poop since they also eat, so they must be able to digest this food somehow. It's possible that they may still have thier organic digestive tracks, but would the organic bits be able to withstand the punishment these girls are put through?
Like I said the other day, they must be making some pretty big break-throughs in Italy.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I can see why Yu only touched lightly on this stuff, it's all exceedingly mind boggling.

I was always under the impression that Yu didn't go into much depth with the technology because it wasn't particuarly important to the story he was telling, but as I've said before I've always considered GSG to be a character drama more than an action or scifi series. To put it another way: the cyborg program was there to create a backdrop and set the stage for the characters to play on... the technological nitty-gritty in and of itself wasn't an ends or the central focus of the story...

...which of course leaves lots of room for enjoyable debate.

Alfisti wrote:

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I can see why Yu only touched lightly on this stuff, it's all exceedingly mind boggling.

I was always under the impression that Yu didn't go into much depth with the technology because it wasn't particuarly important to the story he was telling

You make a good point. I t does make more sense that way instead of him just being lazy or nonchalant.

Alfitsi wrote:...which of course leaves lots of room for enjoyable debate.

Much enjoyable debate, indeed .

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Another thing I thought up, is what would the cyborg skin be made of...

We know it is artificial, though it does have blood vessels and sweat glands. We never saw how it was originally applied, but we now know that the process is to apply it via patches in a large tank using nanotechnology from the United States. Something like the Bacta(?) Tanks from The Empire Strikes Back used to heal Luke.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:IAnother thing I thought up, is what would the cyborg skin be made of, 'cause I remember Henritta crashing into and breaking a wall when her bag was stolen, so it would have to be tough, which led me to wonder how they get thier Vitamin D fix? Perhaps it's all part of the conditioning medication that they allso get all the vitamins and nutrients they require. However, how do they process these nutrients? Perhaps it's only me, but I assume that they poop since they also eat, so they must be able to digest this food somehow. It's possible that they may still have thier organic digestive tracks, but would the organic bits be able to withstand the punishment these girls are put through?
Like I said the other day, they must be making some pretty big break-throughs in Italy.

Our skin rests on several membranes or layers of support protiens. My own thoughts are that there skin is grown on a membrane layer containing carbon fiber or some other strong fiber like kevlar. This would allow for the extra strength seen in the show and the ability to function normaly skin since blood vessels and or fluids could still flow acrosss it. i thiink anything heavier than a membrane layer would start to impeed normal function and would make the skin stronger than seen in cannon where they do bleed from a strong enough blow. These layers could also be placed in other areas of the body to protect organs and other areas of the body.

As for the girls disgestive tract I think they still have it since it is one of the organs you can not live without, Loss of a signifigant portion of the small intestine specififically the illieum is a critical condition and ussually fatal. So I think the girls still have a good portion of their digestive tract and any special drugs or materials that can not enter this way would be given in the conditioning injections.

I think that the girls organic components can survive the pounding they give them considering the enhancements. By inlarge most of what they do in cannon isn't beyond what is seen in human competition at the highest levels today. Henrietta's chase after the purse snatcher could possibly be done by a world class sprinter. It's just insane for him to try since keeping that speed up for more than 100m would be difficult and his normal ankles might break when landing some of the jumps. For triela during the chase for mario bossi is probably something a praticioner of parkour could do (fighting and breaking handcuffs excluded). I'll admit that some of petra's acrobatics stretch the imagination but i dont think that they are impossible given that normal people have survived falls from those heights and given her enhancement she would be ok.

http://kotaku.com/5750108/stem-cell-shooting-gun-heals-massive-burns-in-days

stem cell spray gun heals burns in days

facinating

crazyidiot78 wrote:

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:IAnother thing I thought up, is what would the cyborg skin be made of, 'cause I remember Henritta crashing into and breaking a wall when her bag was stolen, so it would have to be tough, which led me to wonder how they get thier Vitamin D fix? Perhaps it's all part of the conditioning medication that they allso get all the vitamins and nutrients they require. However, how do they process these nutrients? Perhaps it's only me, but I assume that they poop since they also eat, so they must be able to digest this food somehow. It's possible that they may still have thier organic digestive tracks, but would the organic bits be able to withstand the punishment these girls are put through?
Like I said the other day, they must be making some pretty big break-throughs in Italy.

Our skin rests on several membranes or layers of support protiens. My own thoughts are that there skin is grown on a membrane layer containing carbon fiber or some other strong fiber like kevlar. This would allow for the extra strength seen in the show and the ability to function normaly skin since blood vessels and or fluids could still flow acrosss it. i thiink anything heavier than a membrane layer would start to impeed normal function and would make the skin stronger than seen in cannon where they do bleed from a strong enough blow. These layers could also be placed in other areas of the body to protect organs and other areas of the body...

...I think that the girls organic components can survive the pounding they give them considering the enhancements. By inlarge most of what they do in cannon isn't beyond what is seen in human competition at the highest levels today. Henrietta's chase after the purse snatcher could possibly be done by a world class sprinter. It's just insane for him to try since keeping that speed up for more than 100m would be difficult and his normal ankles might break when landing some of the jumps. For triela during the chase for mario bossi is probably something a praticioner of parkour could do (fighting and breaking handcuffs excluded). I'll admit that some of petra's acrobatics stretch the imagination but i dont think that they are impossible given that normal people have survived falls from those heights and given her enhancement she would be ok.

I was more focussing on the fact that she broke that brick wall and was unscaved (as far as we could see) by the event, most poeple I know would have at least brocken the skin. You make some good points very good points though. I might try and bring some of these points up with my Bio teacher and get her perspective.

Destroyer of Worlds wrote:I might try and bring some of these points up with my Bio teacher and get her perspective.

CI78, you're a teacher right? What subjects do you teach (besides rowing)?

I was more focussing on the fact that she broke that brick wall and was unscaved (as far as we could see) by the event, most poeple I know would have at least brocken the skin.

In the second season anime, Bernardo gives Beatrice a towel before she breaks through a brick wall (to find explosives). This indicates to me that the girls are susceptible to "bloody knuckles" (or palm in this case) when hitting a hard, abrasive surface.


Il Teatrino; episode 8

Voodoo I teach biology, and if i remeber correctly Henrietta hits that wall with her shoulder while wearing a jacket. So I would imagine their skin is more resilent but not imune to damage. Also to add to my theory posted previously while each fascia or basal membrane layer reinforced with carbon fiber or other composite fibers would be weak combined together i think it would offer strong protection.

Using the arm as an example this is how it would theoreticaly work

The epidermis would be growing on a thicker layer as only fluids and molecules need to move through this layer.

Dermis a more pourus layer would be used here to allow for blood vessels to pass through

Subcutaneous tissue layer would have have opening for larger blood vessels but several layers could be placed here.

Muscles could also be contained within some sheath with opening for blood vessels.

I know this looks complex but all I really did was figure that if each basement membrane and fascia layer with composites and figured it would give a lot of protection. Ok science geek moment over.

Not to make things seem overly complex, but when Henrietta went for re-conditioning to supposedly replace Beatrice it looked like Henrietta had a bandage on her left upper arm, indicating to me at least the generation one cyborgs can receive intramuscular injections. So not being any sort of expert in medicine or anatomy... not sure if I'm any help.

Triela Hilshire wrote:Not to make things seem overly complex, but when Henrietta went for re-conditioning to supposedly replace Beatrice it looked like Henrietta had a bandage on her left upper arm, indicating to me at least the generation one cyborgs can receive intramuscular injections. So not being any sort of expert in medicine or anatomy... not sure if I'm any help.

Good point, that being the case then there would have to be some sort of weak spot in the skin for an injection to take place since anything designed to make the skin more resilent would also make it harder for injections

not necessarily,a sharp pointed object(like an arrow or crossbow bolt) will pierce layered woven armour so a syringe would penetrate the girls skin

but could enough force be put on teh syringe without breaking it or without needing a special applicator

The Pasta Prince story got its beginnings when Marco was trying to distract Angelica from the shot she was getting.

Chapter 11

I don't think the "weak spot" theory holds up. As any heroin enthusiast knows, you can only stick the same spot so many times before the vein collapses and becomes useless. Maybe cyborg veins are different but I really don't think so.

As has been theorized already, I think the girls' skin is ordinary, living tissue anchored on a tough subcutaneous matrix that provides their first line of defense against deep punctures and cuts.
Needle sticks, paper cuts and a bloody lip after the occasional slap from one's handler all happen normally, but a hostile knife blade would be deflected before it cut deep enough to do any real harm.

I was about to post V3 when Angie returns, and needs a shot from her field kit. Its a simple syringe.

Professor Voodoo wrote:

I don't think the "weak spot" theory holds up. As any heroin enthusiast knows, you can only stick the same spot so many times before the vein collapses and becomes useless. Maybe cyborg veins are different but I really don't think so.

oops i kinda forgot about that

Within my Original Series of fiction, I posited the girls had an area that didn't have nerve endings so that injections could be made without them knowing (like when they were asleep).

In the second season anime, Bernardo gives Beatrice a towel before she breaks through a brick wall (to find explosives). This indicates to me that the girls are susceptible to "bloody knuckles" (or palm in this case) when hitting a hard, abrasive surface.


Il Teatrino; episode 8[/quote]
Gah! I feel like an ignoranus for not remember that.

Crazyidiot78 wrote:Good point, that being the case then there would have to be some sort of
weak spot in the skin for an injection to take place since anything
designed to make the skin more resilent would also make it harder for
injections

Aninnell wrote:not necessarily,a sharp pointed object(like an arrow or crossbow bolt)
will pierce layered woven armour so a syringe would penetrate the girls
skin

CI78, I didn't know you were a teacher, cool .
Anyway, Provided the needle point was sharp enough, a lot of force wouldn't be required. Test it for yourself. Get the blunt end of a sqrewdriver (handle) and and push it on your hand, get the sharp end of same screwdriver and push it into your hand also using equall force. Which end hurt more? The pointy. This is because the blunt end has a greater surface are to spread the force over, while the sharp end has a very small surface area by comparison, so the force is more concertrated (HAHA! I knew there was a reason I'm taking physics!). I agree with Anninell that the needle could go through, since it has a very, very small surface area over which rto spread the force, making it superconcentrate.

All this stuff's got me wondering, are there some injuries that the cyborgs would be able to get fixed by a regular docrtor? Thier injuries only being able to be reapaired back at the Agency, which is in Rome, seems like a design flaw. What if they are in a neighboring country, they would have to get flown all the way back to rome. Dunno, just seems a bit inconveniant and inpractical.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:All this stuff's got me wondering, are there some injuries that the cyborgs would be able to get fixed by a regular docrtor? Thier injuries only being able to be reapaired back at the Agency, which is in Rome, seems like a design flaw. What if they are in a neighboring country, they would have to get flown all the way back to rome. Dunno, just seems a bit inconveniant and inpractical.

I dunno mate, mean: do you really want to send the multi-million Euro piece of top-secret, deep-black clandestine technology, the discovery of which could probably get Italy black-listed by most of the westernized world or at least cause a major foreign-policy issue to a regular, foreign GP? I mean really?

I know my own take on the SWA tends to be one of the more paranoid ones going, but I doubt you'd ever see Monty walk into a regular doctor's practice, even if they could help her.

I guess what I'm saying is that, all things considered, only being able to fix them back in Rome probably isn't a major issue. There are other constraints which would prevent them going to a regular doctor anyway.

Alfisti wrote:

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:All this stuff's got me wondering, are there some injuries that the cyborgs would be able to get fixed by a regular docrtor? Thier injuries only being able to be reapaired back at the Agency, which is in Rome, seems like a design flaw. What if they are in a neighboring country, they would have to get flown all the way back to rome. Dunno, just seems a bit inconveniant and inpractical.

I dunno mate, mean: do you really want to send the multi-million Euro piece of top-secret, deep-black clandestine technology, the discovery of which could probably get Italy black-listed by most of the westernized world or at least cause a major foreign-policy issue to a regular, foreign GP? I mean really?

I was thinking more on the situation where there's an an all out war or something, maybe they're somehwere like the middle east, and having them flown all the way back to Italy would be a bit of a waste of resources, however, the injury still lowers thier combat effectiveness. Or perhaps in an army base that already knows that they are cyborgs (Like the Foereign Legion in one of my Fics), so that they can get fixed there. Saves time, money, and possibly lives.
I wasn't thinking that one of 'em scraped thier knee or something and the local GP is closer than the Agency. Just that is it possible for some injuries to be repaired with the tools that the GP, or even a hospitol would have avalible, rather than going back to Rome.
And besides, they could just kill the doc after anyway. Jean seems to have no issues with killing blokes that could give the Agency away, Roballo is proof of that, I mean, he was Jean's frined for Christ's sake, and... BANG! (Maybe not that dramatic, but you get the point)

Within my universe, the SWA does have field medics. When Kara was shot in the gut on a mission, the field medic on hand (Licia Cerutti) was able to keep her stable until she could be airlifted back to Rome.

Kiskaloo wrote:Within my universe, the SWA does have field medics. When Kara was shot in the gut on a mission, the field medic on hand (Licia Cerutti) was able to keep her stable until she could be airlifted back to Rome.

That would most definately solve the problem. I kinda portray the cyborgs in my Fics as Machine god like death machines. When I had the cyborgs in Iraq, Victoria got shot in the chest by an AP round (The stock of her rifle and Kevlar vest slowed it enough to be non-leathal) shot a few times with an MG, had a lenthy piece of tank stuck in her leg after being to close to a Javelin strike, a mild concusion from same Javelin strike, got bandaged up, shot some more with an assault rifle, and then she blacked out on the way back to base from blood loss. She only awoke three days later in a hospitol bed at the Agency, with some 'heavy duty' limbs. And she's only a Second Gen, think of the carnage the First's can go through. I think I may be over stating thier abilities .

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I was thinking more on the situation where there's an an all out war or something, maybe they're somehwere like the middle east, and having them flown all the way back to Italy would be a bit of a waste of resources, however, the injury still lowers thier combat effectiveness. Or perhaps in an army base that already knows that they are cyborgs (Like the Foereign Legion in one of my Fics), so that they can get fixed there. Saves time, money, and possibly lives.

Again, though it's not something I'd use in my own writings (I tend to take the view that there's no such thing as a "friend" in the international community, meerly countries you happen to be nice to as their adgenda currently coincides with yours), that's certainly a more plausible. I that situation though, I'd be inclined to go with Kisk's idea that the SWA would dispatch field medics with its personnel and cyborg-assets.

Alfisti wrote:...I tend to take the view that there's no such thing as a "friend" in the international community, meerly countries you happen to be nice to as their adgenda currently coincides with yours...

You wouldn't happen to read Schlock Mercenary would you? Seriously, that's almost exactly like the maxim "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, nothing more".

But how long would these medics take to arrive if they can arrive, is what my problem is with that. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, 'cause it's actually a pretty good one. I'm also not saying that the problem can be permanantly fixed without the Agency's equipment. What I'm getting at is temporary repairs, not replacing damaged organs. Just enough to tide the cyborg over till medics can arrive.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
I was thinking more on the situation where there's an an all out war or something, maybe they're somehwere like the middle east, and having them flown all the way back to Italy would be a bit of a waste of resources, however, the injury still lowers thier combat effectiveness. Or perhaps in an army base that already knows that they are cyborgs (Like the Foereign Legion in one of my Fics), so that they can get fixed there. Saves time, money, and possibly lives.

I shipped the girls out to Iraq in one of my stories. My narrative implies that certain elements of the Coalition forces were aware of their presence, and possessed the facilities to provide them with aid and support. Take note, however, that the events of my stories occur in a world where the SWA is but one of several nations who operate cyborgs, with most of these nations working in concert.