Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
+3
LoC978
Nachtsider
ElfenMagix
7 posters
Page 1 of 1
Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Guest Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 3:08
About a year or so ago, I was rather confused as to what carbon fiber was, the mechanics of the girls, and their age. With enough research, however, I discovered those secrets, explaining the age and growth of the girls (which a lot of you may remember passing off as a good opinion back then). This research was done for my stories that I had, and mere curiosity.
Well, that same curiosity about conditioning has returned for my new story. What is it, exactly? Conditioning I mean. Do you know?
I was a bit surprised to find out that it’s actually a topic studied in psychology. After reading what it is, I laughed at myself, recalling the context of conditioning with what the handlers were all talking about: obedience.
Trying to study conditioning, I started from the bottom, but found what I did too simple, and squirmed my way to the top, the type of conditioning I was looking for, and realized I needed basic understandings at the bottom. I suddenly realized this topic is a lot more complex than I originally hoped for or thought.
Let me begin with “Behavioral Relationships”.
There are things in life that stimulate certain responses. Those naturally occurring responses in nature are called “unconditioned relationships.” A good example: a dog sees food, and salivates. In this example, the food is the unconditioned stimulus for the unconditioned response of salivating.
Classical Conditioning is the simplest form (I know) of conditioning. This is the process of adding another element in an unconditioned relationship. A good example: We ring a bell every time we present food to a dog. After constant, consistent trials, the dog associates the ringing bell with food. Eventually, the dog will salivate with the ringing of the bell.
We have now created a conditioned relationship.
Classical conditioning can also be created with certain emotions or precautions. My cat once always stuck his nose in everything. At one time, he decided to stick his nose into a lit candle fire. From that point on, he never stuck his nose in anything he didn’t already understand or recognize. This can also happen to humans as well, and we can see it in personal pet peeves and OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).
Operant Conditioning is a little more complex, and deals with consequences, but expands on the same basic principles. The difference is that instead of linking natural responses to an unnatural stimulus (as in Classical Conditioning), Operant Conditioning affects responses to relationships. The four possible consequences are:
1) Something good starts or is presented
2) Something good ends or is taken away
3) Something bad starts or is presented
4) Something bad ends or is taken away
An event started or presented is positive, because it is added. ( + )
An event ended or taken away is negative, because it was taken away. ( - )
Anything that increases a behavior is a “reinforcer”. ( R )
… This means that anything that encourages an existing behavior (response).
Anything that decreases a behavior is a “punisher”. ( P )
… This means anything that discourages an existing behavior (response).
Take my grandmother’s dog for example. My grandfather tries to teach it that it is wrong to bark (as it wakes people up and disturbs the household). Barking is an unconditioned response to any number of stimuli. In any case, punishing the dog for barking is Operant Conditioning in which something bad starts or is presented. This means punishing the dog for barking is a positive punisher.
Something good starts or is presented– Positive reinforcer (R+)
Something bad starts or is presented – Positive punisher (P+)
Something bad ends or is taken away – Negative reinforcer (R-)
Something good ends or is taken away – Negative punisher (P-)
Pleasures as rewards that does not increase (strengthens) an existing behavior are not reinforcements, but indulgences. Vice versa, aversives (what we may know as punishments) that do not weaken an existing behavior are abuses, not punishers. (Basically, if they’re not working. This occurs when continuous, introduced consequences do not change the instinctive responses.)
This study in psychology can arm you with devious knowledge, such as:
… Example:
I liked my aunt; she always made me feel warm and wanted. She always wore a particular perfume. When I smell the perfume now, I immediately feel warm and wanted.
… So what?
If you want to persuade someone to do something, get them to do it at the same time as doing something they like doing.
Do something specific every time they do something you want (like touching them somewhere or making a specific sound). Then do that specific thing and they'll think of doing the desired behavior.
While this is mostly found in the study of animals, I have successfully tested it on humans. I am therefore inclined to believe that the girls are not different in such relationships.
Well, that same curiosity about conditioning has returned for my new story. What is it, exactly? Conditioning I mean. Do you know?
I was a bit surprised to find out that it’s actually a topic studied in psychology. After reading what it is, I laughed at myself, recalling the context of conditioning with what the handlers were all talking about: obedience.
Trying to study conditioning, I started from the bottom, but found what I did too simple, and squirmed my way to the top, the type of conditioning I was looking for, and realized I needed basic understandings at the bottom. I suddenly realized this topic is a lot more complex than I originally hoped for or thought.
Let me begin with “Behavioral Relationships”.
There are things in life that stimulate certain responses. Those naturally occurring responses in nature are called “unconditioned relationships.” A good example: a dog sees food, and salivates. In this example, the food is the unconditioned stimulus for the unconditioned response of salivating.
Classical Conditioning is the simplest form (I know) of conditioning. This is the process of adding another element in an unconditioned relationship. A good example: We ring a bell every time we present food to a dog. After constant, consistent trials, the dog associates the ringing bell with food. Eventually, the dog will salivate with the ringing of the bell.
We have now created a conditioned relationship.
Classical conditioning can also be created with certain emotions or precautions. My cat once always stuck his nose in everything. At one time, he decided to stick his nose into a lit candle fire. From that point on, he never stuck his nose in anything he didn’t already understand or recognize. This can also happen to humans as well, and we can see it in personal pet peeves and OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder).
Operant Conditioning is a little more complex, and deals with consequences, but expands on the same basic principles. The difference is that instead of linking natural responses to an unnatural stimulus (as in Classical Conditioning), Operant Conditioning affects responses to relationships. The four possible consequences are:
1) Something good starts or is presented
2) Something good ends or is taken away
3) Something bad starts or is presented
4) Something bad ends or is taken away
An event started or presented is positive, because it is added. ( + )
An event ended or taken away is negative, because it was taken away. ( - )
Anything that increases a behavior is a “reinforcer”. ( R )
… This means that anything that encourages an existing behavior (response).
Anything that decreases a behavior is a “punisher”. ( P )
… This means anything that discourages an existing behavior (response).
Take my grandmother’s dog for example. My grandfather tries to teach it that it is wrong to bark (as it wakes people up and disturbs the household). Barking is an unconditioned response to any number of stimuli. In any case, punishing the dog for barking is Operant Conditioning in which something bad starts or is presented. This means punishing the dog for barking is a positive punisher.
Something good starts or is presented– Positive reinforcer (R+)
Something bad starts or is presented – Positive punisher (P+)
Something bad ends or is taken away – Negative reinforcer (R-)
Something good ends or is taken away – Negative punisher (P-)
Pleasures as rewards that does not increase (strengthens) an existing behavior are not reinforcements, but indulgences. Vice versa, aversives (what we may know as punishments) that do not weaken an existing behavior are abuses, not punishers. (Basically, if they’re not working. This occurs when continuous, introduced consequences do not change the instinctive responses.)
This study in psychology can arm you with devious knowledge, such as:
… Example:
I liked my aunt; she always made me feel warm and wanted. She always wore a particular perfume. When I smell the perfume now, I immediately feel warm and wanted.
… So what?
If you want to persuade someone to do something, get them to do it at the same time as doing something they like doing.
Do something specific every time they do something you want (like touching them somewhere or making a specific sound). Then do that specific thing and they'll think of doing the desired behavior.
While this is mostly found in the study of animals, I have successfully tested it on humans. I am therefore inclined to believe that the girls are not different in such relationships.
Guest- Guest
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Guest Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 3:12
In conjunction with this, there is the process of “Extinction”. This is accomplished when an expected positive condition or an expected negative condition, is stopped. More simply, a conditioned relationship ends. This means that a conditioned relationship must be up kept to continue the desired response to a certain stimuli in order to stay alive.
“Desensitizing” occurs when a stimulus is introduced and repeated, and the intensity of the emotion of this stimulus is dissolved. A good example is playing a game. After playing the game for so long, becoming so experienced that there is no challenge, the player becomes desensitized to the game, as the intense enjoyment is no longer experienced. This is a form of extinction, as the result ends up being the player no longer plays the game.
“Inoculation” is the opposite of “desensitizing”, occurring when a stimulus is presented in a weaker form each time it is repeated. A good example is breaking the habit of smoking by smoking less and with weaker brands to the point it is laughably easy to resist. Another form of Extinction.
Extinction can also occur through “Extreme Experience”. One such method is “Flooding”, where a stimulus is applied constantly and more extremes are applied until the stimulus causes a reverse, and is no longer effective. A good example is how I became immune to caffeine. I drank caffeinated liquids by the gallons late at night, and now caffeine no longer keeps me awake. In fact, caffeine can make me sleepy.
Behind and beyond Operant Conditioning, is Fixed Action Patterns (FAP). Fixed Action Patterns are instinctive responses to stimuli.
A good example of fixed action patterns is the red-bellied stickleback (fish). The male turns a bright red/blue colour during the breeding season. This colour change is the fixed action pattern in response to an increasing day length which is the sign stimulus. During this time they are also naturally aggressive towards other red-bellied sticklebacks, another FAP. However anything that is red, or has the appearance or being red, will bring about this FAP. The proximate response to this is that due to the stimuli, a nerve sends a signal to attack that red item. The ultimate cause of this behavior stems from the fact that the stickleback needs the area in which it is living for either habitat, food, mating with other sticklebacks, or other purposes.
Another important example of FAP is the Greylag Goose. When eggs are found away from the nest, the goose will roll the egg back to the nest. However, this will include rolling other egg-like objects. If the egg or egg-like object is taken away, the goose will continue rolling its head as if it were rolling an imaginary egg.
Thusly so, the conditioning process is the method by which the girls are trained to follow desired responses to different stimuli. This seems to require conditioning drugs, which I now know is a strong hypnotic drug.
Triela and Henrietta receive low levels of conditioning. This means that they must often improvise and think for themselves, also making their own decisions. Rico, on the otherhand, with heavy doses of conditioning, is more fixed in responses and stimuli. Triela wants Hilshire to increase her level of conditioning so that obeying orders would be easier to follow.
When Rabello and José were talking in the indoor shooting range, Rabello instructed José to train Henrietta better marksmanship. José thought he was talking about “increasing conditioning” concerning Henrietta’s shooting.
José attempts the route of treating Henrietta nicely, using rewards. However, such rewards are not proper positive reinforcers as successful operant conditioing because they do not positively reinforce them (thus, they are indulgences). Jean, on the other hand, punishes Rico, but these are not successful negative punishers because they do not decrease Rico’s conditioned relationship (thus, his punishments are psychologically considered abuses).
This was why Rico was confused when Jean didn’t slap her when the mission went bad on their end (in my story, ‘To Kill a Cyborg’). This is beacause a consequence of a poor job is often a scolding/slap.
In Volume 7, it was explained to Alasandro that the conditioning has evolved to be more flexible. And that “the way it is now, you tell a cyborg to die, they’ll just keel over.” (I don’t remember exactly how it was wordered). Alasandro also noticed a deep void of nothingness when looking into Rico/Henrietta’s eyes. They seemed to be looking for some sort of command, so he thought. It’s the way the girls are conditioned.
But conditioning is worthless without the brainwashing procedure. In brainwashing, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment. Such true brainwashing is virtually impossible to successfully accomplish realistically.
However, Yu Aida did his research very well. The more I read, the more I am impressed at his psychological knowledge. If you remember, the girls’ identity of their own selves has been destroyed with the erasing of their memory, amongst other stresses. While it is completely impossible to start from zero, (as Henrietta demonstrated as she started out still traumatized by her brutal raping and killing of her family, even though she didn’t remember it) the girls start pretty low. We see this in Petra in Volume 7. But again, the girls’ memories can only be “blocked”, never really destroyed. Thus far, only we fanfic writers have probed the ideal of a cyborg’s memory becoming unblocked.
Part of the brainwashing procedure is bypassed. In normal circumstances, the self is denied: denied of identity, use, and beliefs. Such is destroyed during the surgery when the cyborg has her memory erased. This would save a lot of stress on a process that may or may not work (though much easier on children). It involves isolation, physical and mental breakdowns, and the like.
Reconditioning is the result of a fault or mistake, where a conditioned response must be erased or changed. This must apparently be done in the operating room, when memory is erased, and, somehow during the surgery, the cyborg undergoes a special brainwashing procedure. Yu Aida has not revealed how this is accomplished just yet, but explains how Petra knew Alessandro’s name, knowing she is in the SWA, what she is designed to do, amongst other information.
This also explains Claes’ state when Jean told her about Rabello’s death. With all that she had within her, she suffered from immediate breakdown. Her reason to live, her identity, and everything were essentially self-destroyed.
This brings me to consciousness and hypnotism. The girls are conditioned to respond to commands almost on a subconscious level. In this state the girls’ conditioned responses to certain stimuli is amplified to become fixed action patterns (instinctive responses). Usually, to produce a desired effect from hypnotism, the patient must be in a trance-like state, or a daze, known as hypnosis. Subjects under hypnotic states are still consciously aware, and are also aware of their safety/morality. However, if a drug can be produced to destroy the consciousness, and bring about the sub-consciousness thought process, coupled with the girls' destruction of their self, identity, beliefs, and morality, commands can bypass the awareness of safety or morality.
Pulling the trigger on a gun to kill a human being is different than what they would find in their previous lives. Their understanding and level of morality has been stripped away from their sense of individuality. On top of that, they are conditioned to respond in pulling the trigger on a subconscious level. Eventually, such conditioning, coped with brainwashing, uses the process of Extinction to deaden the cyborg’s feelings they would have over killing a human being.
Somewhere in this mix, Yu Aida brought out the Elsa Factor, in which Elsa’s love for her handler was induced through the brainwashing process. Hypnotized on a subconscious level, she was compelled to believe that her handler would (or did) love her in return. When the expected response in a love relationship is not met in the conditioned relationship, she found her efforts in vain. In her mind, she managed to believe that doing a good job was a stimulus to produce the desired effect of Lauro to return the love. This was probably a replay by Lauro, amongst a mixture of influences we have not seen. Since Elsa has little (next to nothing) in understanding, Lauro had to contribute to it. In essence, she only took the brainwashing procedure and conditioning process on Lauro, which did not work.
I hope that was all clear. I know that's one of my weaknesses.
“Desensitizing” occurs when a stimulus is introduced and repeated, and the intensity of the emotion of this stimulus is dissolved. A good example is playing a game. After playing the game for so long, becoming so experienced that there is no challenge, the player becomes desensitized to the game, as the intense enjoyment is no longer experienced. This is a form of extinction, as the result ends up being the player no longer plays the game.
“Inoculation” is the opposite of “desensitizing”, occurring when a stimulus is presented in a weaker form each time it is repeated. A good example is breaking the habit of smoking by smoking less and with weaker brands to the point it is laughably easy to resist. Another form of Extinction.
Extinction can also occur through “Extreme Experience”. One such method is “Flooding”, where a stimulus is applied constantly and more extremes are applied until the stimulus causes a reverse, and is no longer effective. A good example is how I became immune to caffeine. I drank caffeinated liquids by the gallons late at night, and now caffeine no longer keeps me awake. In fact, caffeine can make me sleepy.
Behind and beyond Operant Conditioning, is Fixed Action Patterns (FAP). Fixed Action Patterns are instinctive responses to stimuli.
A good example of fixed action patterns is the red-bellied stickleback (fish). The male turns a bright red/blue colour during the breeding season. This colour change is the fixed action pattern in response to an increasing day length which is the sign stimulus. During this time they are also naturally aggressive towards other red-bellied sticklebacks, another FAP. However anything that is red, or has the appearance or being red, will bring about this FAP. The proximate response to this is that due to the stimuli, a nerve sends a signal to attack that red item. The ultimate cause of this behavior stems from the fact that the stickleback needs the area in which it is living for either habitat, food, mating with other sticklebacks, or other purposes.
Another important example of FAP is the Greylag Goose. When eggs are found away from the nest, the goose will roll the egg back to the nest. However, this will include rolling other egg-like objects. If the egg or egg-like object is taken away, the goose will continue rolling its head as if it were rolling an imaginary egg.
Thusly so, the conditioning process is the method by which the girls are trained to follow desired responses to different stimuli. This seems to require conditioning drugs, which I now know is a strong hypnotic drug.
Triela and Henrietta receive low levels of conditioning. This means that they must often improvise and think for themselves, also making their own decisions. Rico, on the otherhand, with heavy doses of conditioning, is more fixed in responses and stimuli. Triela wants Hilshire to increase her level of conditioning so that obeying orders would be easier to follow.
When Rabello and José were talking in the indoor shooting range, Rabello instructed José to train Henrietta better marksmanship. José thought he was talking about “increasing conditioning” concerning Henrietta’s shooting.
José attempts the route of treating Henrietta nicely, using rewards. However, such rewards are not proper positive reinforcers as successful operant conditioing because they do not positively reinforce them (thus, they are indulgences). Jean, on the other hand, punishes Rico, but these are not successful negative punishers because they do not decrease Rico’s conditioned relationship (thus, his punishments are psychologically considered abuses).
This was why Rico was confused when Jean didn’t slap her when the mission went bad on their end (in my story, ‘To Kill a Cyborg’). This is beacause a consequence of a poor job is often a scolding/slap.
In Volume 7, it was explained to Alasandro that the conditioning has evolved to be more flexible. And that “the way it is now, you tell a cyborg to die, they’ll just keel over.” (I don’t remember exactly how it was wordered). Alasandro also noticed a deep void of nothingness when looking into Rico/Henrietta’s eyes. They seemed to be looking for some sort of command, so he thought. It’s the way the girls are conditioned.
But conditioning is worthless without the brainwashing procedure. In brainwashing, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment. Such true brainwashing is virtually impossible to successfully accomplish realistically.
However, Yu Aida did his research very well. The more I read, the more I am impressed at his psychological knowledge. If you remember, the girls’ identity of their own selves has been destroyed with the erasing of their memory, amongst other stresses. While it is completely impossible to start from zero, (as Henrietta demonstrated as she started out still traumatized by her brutal raping and killing of her family, even though she didn’t remember it) the girls start pretty low. We see this in Petra in Volume 7. But again, the girls’ memories can only be “blocked”, never really destroyed. Thus far, only we fanfic writers have probed the ideal of a cyborg’s memory becoming unblocked.
Part of the brainwashing procedure is bypassed. In normal circumstances, the self is denied: denied of identity, use, and beliefs. Such is destroyed during the surgery when the cyborg has her memory erased. This would save a lot of stress on a process that may or may not work (though much easier on children). It involves isolation, physical and mental breakdowns, and the like.
Reconditioning is the result of a fault or mistake, where a conditioned response must be erased or changed. This must apparently be done in the operating room, when memory is erased, and, somehow during the surgery, the cyborg undergoes a special brainwashing procedure. Yu Aida has not revealed how this is accomplished just yet, but explains how Petra knew Alessandro’s name, knowing she is in the SWA, what she is designed to do, amongst other information.
This also explains Claes’ state when Jean told her about Rabello’s death. With all that she had within her, she suffered from immediate breakdown. Her reason to live, her identity, and everything were essentially self-destroyed.
This brings me to consciousness and hypnotism. The girls are conditioned to respond to commands almost on a subconscious level. In this state the girls’ conditioned responses to certain stimuli is amplified to become fixed action patterns (instinctive responses). Usually, to produce a desired effect from hypnotism, the patient must be in a trance-like state, or a daze, known as hypnosis. Subjects under hypnotic states are still consciously aware, and are also aware of their safety/morality. However, if a drug can be produced to destroy the consciousness, and bring about the sub-consciousness thought process, coupled with the girls' destruction of their self, identity, beliefs, and morality, commands can bypass the awareness of safety or morality.
Pulling the trigger on a gun to kill a human being is different than what they would find in their previous lives. Their understanding and level of morality has been stripped away from their sense of individuality. On top of that, they are conditioned to respond in pulling the trigger on a subconscious level. Eventually, such conditioning, coped with brainwashing, uses the process of Extinction to deaden the cyborg’s feelings they would have over killing a human being.
Somewhere in this mix, Yu Aida brought out the Elsa Factor, in which Elsa’s love for her handler was induced through the brainwashing process. Hypnotized on a subconscious level, she was compelled to believe that her handler would (or did) love her in return. When the expected response in a love relationship is not met in the conditioned relationship, she found her efforts in vain. In her mind, she managed to believe that doing a good job was a stimulus to produce the desired effect of Lauro to return the love. This was probably a replay by Lauro, amongst a mixture of influences we have not seen. Since Elsa has little (next to nothing) in understanding, Lauro had to contribute to it. In essence, she only took the brainwashing procedure and conditioning process on Lauro, which did not work.
I hope that was all clear. I know that's one of my weaknesses.
Guest- Guest
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by ElfenMagix Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 23:22
I would have to agree with most of it, Colonel Marksman.
The conditioning process is as you state it here.
Brainwashing is a whole different system but inculdes conditioning as part of the process for a more larger, broader and effective outcome; and incudes use of mind alterring psychotropic chemicals, electroshock thearpies, hypno-thearpies, etc. End result is a person who will do anything including self destruction upon the orders of another.
As such, it is believed that many suicide extremist fundimentalist terrorists are brained washed individuals. Those who volunteered for the 'service' make easier brainwashing victims, as they more willing to accept programming.
The conditioning process is as you state it here.
Brainwashing is a whole different system but inculdes conditioning as part of the process for a more larger, broader and effective outcome; and incudes use of mind alterring psychotropic chemicals, electroshock thearpies, hypno-thearpies, etc. End result is a person who will do anything including self destruction upon the orders of another.
As such, it is believed that many suicide extremist fundimentalist terrorists are brained washed individuals. Those who volunteered for the 'service' make easier brainwashing victims, as they more willing to accept programming.
ElfenMagix-
Forum Posts : 5682
Location : NYC NY, USA
Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...
Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca
Comments : He has super powers. He is God.
Registration date : 2007-09-21
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Guest Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 0:00
ElfenMagix wrote:I would have to agree with most of it, Colonel Marksman.
The conditioning process is as you state it here.
Brainwashing is a whole different system but inculdes conditioning as part of the process for a more larger, broader and effective outcome; and incudes use of mind alterring psychotropic chemicals, electroshock thearpies, hypno-thearpies, etc. End result is a person who will do anything including self destruction upon the orders of another.
As such, it is believed that many suicide extremist fundimentalist terrorists are brained washed individuals. Those who volunteered for the 'service' make easier brainwashing victims, as they more willing to accept programming.
Correctly so. The Agency found a devious way to alter, even bypass, the whole brainwashing procedure as we know it.
Guest- Guest
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 12:11
While we're on the subject of conditioning, I'd like to pose a question here - how accurate does everyone think is the popular notion that the treatment not only gives the girls superhuman physical abilities via their cybernetic implants, but heightened intelligence as well?
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Guest Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 12:23
Nachtsider wrote:While we're on the subject of conditioning, I'd like to pose a question here - how accurate does everyone think is the popular notion that the treatment not only gives the girls superhuman physical abilities via their cybernetic implants, but heightened intelligence as well?
I think I see what you're saying, but if you clarify with an example or rewording, just in case, and here's why:
Hightened intelligence? I don't think the girls have heightened intelligence, not in the least! The naivity of the girls and their easier manipulation...
...
Well, then you have Claes. But Claes just represents your interested, time-consuming bookworm. As far as I'm concerned, Rico and Henrietta are far from brilliant. Triela and Henrietta, due to the nature of their conditioning, have room for exploring and thoughtfulness of their own (IOW, figure a few things out for themselves).
Guest- Guest
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 12:31
I get your point on the naivete, Colonel. But naivete does not necessarily equal lack of intelligence; people can be book-smart and fast academic learners while still being naive. What I was mainly driving at was whether the conditioning makes the girls smart enough to learn their trade fast, i.e. memorizing procedures and all that jazz.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by LoC978 Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 14:33
I'm of the opinion that yes, some part of the conditioning process speeds up mental functions a bit. There's no real proof to support the theory, though
LoC978- Beach Bum Revolutionary
-
Forum Posts : 2628
Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.
Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.
Registration date : 2007-09-10
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Guest Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 22:26
They "imput" a lot of information that's job related at teh very beggining. (Like weapon information, but probably lots of other stuff too.) So, at the very least they get a head start with a lot of information, and even if the conditioning does nothing to improve their mental capabilities they still get a ready base to build on that other children would have to work for a long time to establish.
I would agree that the conditioning is likely to help with at least soem mental functions, like memory. What we can prove is that they go into a state of hyper awareness when around their handlers and stay that way the whole time (or almost all the time). This means that they will learn a lot easier, since most normal people have a lot of problems with concentration and there are also very natural limitations to attention span that the girls are likely to be able to break without exerting the hudge will power it would take a random person.
The concept of intelligence is very loosely defined, and there is still no consensus among the people who make their living studing it whether it is one thing or several and (if it's the later) if there is any portion of it that is common. I don't really believe in talking baout intelligence as anything particularly tangible, objective, and practically useful. Skills are a far better concept. Not only stuff like "book-smart" and "street-smart" can be distinguished but stuff along far finer lines. People can be geniuses at some aspects of interpersonal relationships and idiots at others, or be brilliant in geometry but not get algebra/calculus. [Ok, way too many words, as usual. I gues my whole post really says: Yes, I think it helps in some mental functions, and no I don't think it makes the girls into "geniuses" just like that. It probably gives them a potential to absorb knowladge and learn skills, but those still have to be crammed into their heads by trainin gand repetition.]
I would agree that the conditioning is likely to help with at least soem mental functions, like memory. What we can prove is that they go into a state of hyper awareness when around their handlers and stay that way the whole time (or almost all the time). This means that they will learn a lot easier, since most normal people have a lot of problems with concentration and there are also very natural limitations to attention span that the girls are likely to be able to break without exerting the hudge will power it would take a random person.
The concept of intelligence is very loosely defined, and there is still no consensus among the people who make their living studing it whether it is one thing or several and (if it's the later) if there is any portion of it that is common. I don't really believe in talking baout intelligence as anything particularly tangible, objective, and practically useful. Skills are a far better concept. Not only stuff like "book-smart" and "street-smart" can be distinguished but stuff along far finer lines. People can be geniuses at some aspects of interpersonal relationships and idiots at others, or be brilliant in geometry but not get algebra/calculus. [Ok, way too many words, as usual. I gues my whole post really says: Yes, I think it helps in some mental functions, and no I don't think it makes the girls into "geniuses" just like that. It probably gives them a potential to absorb knowladge and learn skills, but those still have to be crammed into their heads by trainin gand repetition.]
Guest- Guest
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by ElfenMagix Wed 12 Mar 2008 - 0:10
There are some strange techinques in learning. Sleep teaching was one used in the 60's & 70's.
From the anime in Season 1, Episode 5 "Promessa" Claes looked like she was being programmed with eyes wide open, showing that the conditioning programming must be visual and auditory. With drugs and hypnotism being involved in other conditioning processes, adding Sleep Teaching in this condition could/would add to their intellegence and responses.
From the anime in Season 1, Episode 5 "Promessa" Claes looked like she was being programmed with eyes wide open, showing that the conditioning programming must be visual and auditory. With drugs and hypnotism being involved in other conditioning processes, adding Sleep Teaching in this condition could/would add to their intellegence and responses.
ElfenMagix-
Forum Posts : 5682
Location : NYC NY, USA
Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...
Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca
Comments : He has super powers. He is God.
Registration date : 2007-09-21
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by West Nile Wed 12 Mar 2008 - 5:28
something to take note
Rico & Angie are conditioned like hell, but they remember their past
Etta & Triela are given minimal conditioning, but they remember squat about their pass....
we've seen alot of the girls see their pass via their dreams... does that mean Etta and Triela kick and scream in their sleep? "NO! NO! NOT THERE!" *Translate to stereotypical hentai scene* "yamate! yamate! ugh!" yamate= stop!
Rico & Angie are conditioned like hell, but they remember their past
Etta & Triela are given minimal conditioning, but they remember squat about their pass....
we've seen alot of the girls see their pass via their dreams... does that mean Etta and Triela kick and scream in their sleep? "NO! NO! NOT THERE!" *Translate to stereotypical hentai scene* "yamate! yamate! ugh!" yamate= stop!
West Nile- WestNilepedia
-
Forum Posts : 1747
Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines
Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta
Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette
Registration date : 2008-01-22
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Wed 12 Mar 2008 - 5:33
Perhaps it just means that Rico isn't actually heavily conditioned. Maybe she just smokes like a Rasta when off duty.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by West Nile Wed 12 Mar 2008 - 5:39
then maybe Rico & Angie get conditioned just as the doctor ordered (enough)
while Etta and Triela are conditioned whenever it's just needed
while Etta and Triela are conditioned whenever it's just needed
West Nile- WestNilepedia
-
Forum Posts : 1747
Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines
Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta
Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette
Registration date : 2008-01-22
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Thanatos Wed 12 Mar 2008 - 15:15
Rico & Angie are conditioned like hell, but they remember their past
Etta & Triela are given minimal conditioning, but they remember squat about their pass....
It´s all in a testing phase at this point.
Even the agency´s doctors are not sure how much effect the conditioning has on the girls memories, it probably varies from girl to girl and the attachment they have with their handlers is a very important factor. That´s why Claes still have some memorial "residue" if that makes any sense.
Thanatos-
Forum Posts : 140
Fan of : Portugal
Original Characters : DUR HUR
Registration date : 2008-01-08
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by ElfenMagix Fri 14 Mar 2008 - 18:25
It would depend on the girls original reprogramming and initial rebuilds. Henrietta came from a brutal murder and rape of her family and to keep her from freaking out, her memories had to be erased. Same with Triela's for a simillar reason. Angie was the first, and the doctors did not know exactly how things would work and thus had to figure out things with her. As Marco said- "You damn doctors- you rewrote again and she forgot everything!!!" (The Pasta Prince Episode). As for Rico- what memories would she need erased? She spent the first 11 years of her life in a hospital bed.
ElfenMagix-
Forum Posts : 5682
Location : NYC NY, USA
Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...
Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca
Comments : He has super powers. He is God.
Registration date : 2007-09-21
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by LoC978 Fri 14 Mar 2008 - 21:23
so basically, when Giuseppe calls the memory erasure a 'side effect' of the conditioning in episode one of the anime, it's not entirely accurate. In the manga, Chapter one, Page 26 (same place as his other quote in the anime) he says "As a result of conditioning, memories of their terrible pasts are erased."
... so, considering Rico's rememberances, it's probably a deliberate modification that can be skipped if appropriate. Rico may even outlive some of the others due to less brain tampering during her initial reconstruction.
... so, considering Rico's rememberances, it's probably a deliberate modification that can be skipped if appropriate. Rico may even outlive some of the others due to less brain tampering during her initial reconstruction.
LoC978- Beach Bum Revolutionary
-
Forum Posts : 2628
Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.
Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.
Registration date : 2007-09-10
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Utsurokuri Sat 15 Mar 2008 - 12:37
Rico didn't have a traumatic experience so her memory didn't need to be erased so the only reason why Jean likes to keep her on high doses of conditioning is not for the side effects but rather to increase her concentration, super human strength and decrease the effects of pain.
If that is the case that the doctors skipped that part of the modification and she is on high doses of conditioning it's a odd kind of situation because no one really knows what conditioning or the process is.
As for the theory that Rico goes next that is highly unlikely because there is a age difference between the rest of the girls and Angelica. If I remember correctly Angelica was the youngest of them all...so would age have a factor too?
If that is the case that the doctors skipped that part of the modification and she is on high doses of conditioning it's a odd kind of situation because no one really knows what conditioning or the process is.
As for the theory that Rico goes next that is highly unlikely because there is a age difference between the rest of the girls and Angelica. If I remember correctly Angelica was the youngest of them all...so would age have a factor too?
Utsurokuri-
Forum Posts : 101
Fan of : -points to avatar-
Original Characters : TBA
Registration date : 2008-02-21
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Sat 15 Mar 2008 - 13:32
The order of entry of the cyborgs into the Agency is as follows - Angie, Triela, Rico, Henrietta, Claes, Elsa.
Angie's the youngest, indeed, but she's been around the longest. Having been conditioned for a longer period of time, it's pretty reasonable to conclude that she would have gone first if she had passed on from her conditioning.
Triela came after Angie, but is lightly conditioned. Rico came after Triela - due to her (Rico) being heavily conditioned and being with the Agency longer than the following three, the supposition that Rico would be next to go from conditioning is almost certainly correct. I say 'almost' because there's nothing to say that Bea or Pia came before Rico.
Angie's the youngest, indeed, but she's been around the longest. Having been conditioned for a longer period of time, it's pretty reasonable to conclude that she would have gone first if she had passed on from her conditioning.
Triela came after Angie, but is lightly conditioned. Rico came after Triela - due to her (Rico) being heavily conditioned and being with the Agency longer than the following three, the supposition that Rico would be next to go from conditioning is almost certainly correct. I say 'almost' because there's nothing to say that Bea or Pia came before Rico.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by West Nile Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 0:11
Nachtsider wrote:The order of entry of the cyborgs into the Agency is as follows - Angie, Triela, Rico, Henrietta, Claes, Elsa.
you sure Claes came after Henrietta. Wasn't Etta considered the newest cyborg as of season 1?
West Nile- WestNilepedia
-
Forum Posts : 1747
Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines
Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta
Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette
Registration date : 2008-01-22
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 0:19
No. Check Episode Five of Season One very carefully.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by LoC978 Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 0:20
the chronology of the episodes is very hard to follow. season one deals in flashbacks A LOT.West Nile wrote:Nachtsider wrote:The order of entry of the cyborgs into the Agency is as follows - Angie, Triela, Rico, Henrietta, Claes, Elsa.
you sure Claes came after Henrietta. Wasn't Etta considered the newest cyborg as of season 1?
that being said... during one flashback, one of Claes' first days at the agency when she shoots in the rain all night, Henrietta is seen playing the violin on her own... and she gives Raballo a puzzled look when he limps by her. It always seemed to me that she was already used to the place, and wondering who the new old guy was.
**edit**
oops... spoiled it...
LoC978- Beach Bum Revolutionary
-
Forum Posts : 2628
Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.
Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.
Registration date : 2007-09-10
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 0:22
My point exactly, LoC.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by West Nile Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 0:27
well then that scratches another thing in the list of "i thought i knew"
West Nile- WestNilepedia
-
Forum Posts : 1747
Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines
Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta
Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette
Registration date : 2008-01-22
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Danjo3 Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 3:11
I’ve been saying the same since I don’t know when – but it seemed no one was every able to comprehend it.LoC978 wrote:that being said... during one flashback, one of Claes' first days at the agency when she shoots in the rain all night, Henrietta is seen playing the violin on her own... and she gives Raballo a puzzled look when he limps by her. It always seemed to me that she was already used to the place, and wondering who the new old guy was.
“Claes after Henrietta? Impossible! And don’t try to cloud the issue with facts!”
Danjo3- The Voice of Reason
-
Forum Posts : 2609
Fan of : Hillshire/Triela
Original Characters : Biff & Little Britney
Comments : OC hater par excellence.
Registration date : 2007-09-14
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by West Nile Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 7:29
wait so wat do you think Danjo? Claes first or Henrietta first?
West Nile- WestNilepedia
-
Forum Posts : 1747
Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines
Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta
Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette
Registration date : 2008-01-22
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 7:44
Henrietta first, Nile. Danjo was being sarcastic with that last sentence.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Danjo3 Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 9:59
I think what throws people is the fact that Claes has that wise/well adjusted/mature thing going on while Henrietta is still struggling with her feelings for Jose and sometimes acts child like. This tends to give one the feeling that it’s Henrietta that’s the junior. A good example is the crying Henrietta being set straight about the kaleidoscope by Claes - I mean, how many people would have made the Balzac connection? How many people know who the fuck Balzac is? She definitely gives off a senior vibe.Nachtsider wrote:Henrietta first, Nile. Danjo was being sarcastic with that last sentence.
Danjo3- The Voice of Reason
-
Forum Posts : 2609
Fan of : Hillshire/Triela
Original Characters : Biff & Little Britney
Comments : OC hater par excellence.
Registration date : 2007-09-14
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 10:57
And it continues to vex me that they would maintain such a supposition in face of the available facts.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Danjo3 Sun 16 Mar 2008 - 12:24
Well maybe we can start getting some converts.Nachtsider wrote:And it continues to vex me that they would maintain such a supposition in face of the available facts.
Danjo3- The Voice of Reason
-
Forum Posts : 2609
Fan of : Hillshire/Triela
Original Characters : Biff & Little Britney
Comments : OC hater par excellence.
Registration date : 2007-09-14
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Guest Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 0:06
Nachtsider wrote:Perhaps it just means that Rico isn't actually heavily conditioned. Maybe she just smokes like a Rasta when off duty.
Maybe Rico's conditioning isn't done during medical/ drugs means.... Maybe Jean actually conditioned her using slaps and punishments. Just like your drill sergenats/ commander/ teacher in the past. Hell, maybe Jean actually LOVED her just like Giussepe loves Henrietta, just the type of tough love. Or maybe more.
Rico's medical conditioning maybe only done to ensure her loyalty. Which is not much.
And if I'm not mistaken, the treatment actually very effective: In the manga, from other active girls (Henrietta, Angie, Triella, others....) it seems that Rico is actually the ones receives most minimal damage. We never seen her getting operated, maintenanced, while other girls had been through that at least once. Although maybe i'ts because most of her works requires her to be in distance.... (e.g, sniping).
Guest- Guest
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 0:18
The thing that drives Rico appears to be her gratitude/loyalty to the Agency for giving her the healthy body she always wanted. Heck, she allowed her gratitude to the Agency to outweigh the guilt she had for shooting Emilio. With loyalty like that, conditioning becomes superfluous.
Jean doesn't strike me as someone who'd beat Rico for that purpose. He might do so if she screwed up on duty or something of the sort, but not beyond.
It's an easy bet Rico's had her fair share of damage. She's been shot quite a few times, and got run over by a car.
Jean doesn't strike me as someone who'd beat Rico for that purpose. He might do so if she screwed up on duty or something of the sort, but not beyond.
It's an easy bet Rico's had her fair share of damage. She's been shot quite a few times, and got run over by a car.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by ElfenMagix Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 12:20
Just because you dont see Rico operated on to repair damage, does not mean that it does not happen.
In the Manga and Episode where Rico & Jean had to bring the Accountant back to the SWA, one of the mafia members actually managed to bounce a bullet off her forehead! This would have taken down your average person but not necessarily killed them. For Rico, that area had to have been repaired somehow after her return to the SWA.
Case in point, The Red Baron suffered a simillar fate when he had a bullet bounce off his skull during WW1. He somehow managed to pull back on the stick of his craft to land at tha last minute. He then spent the next 3 months in a fleid hospital, and another 2 months in limited modified duty where he was not supposed to fly. When he did, he got hell for it... the injury itself left a crease in his skull, and left him with debilitating headaches which limited his flying abilities and judgement skills to the day of his death.
In the Manga and Episode where Rico & Jean had to bring the Accountant back to the SWA, one of the mafia members actually managed to bounce a bullet off her forehead! This would have taken down your average person but not necessarily killed them. For Rico, that area had to have been repaired somehow after her return to the SWA.
Case in point, The Red Baron suffered a simillar fate when he had a bullet bounce off his skull during WW1. He somehow managed to pull back on the stick of his craft to land at tha last minute. He then spent the next 3 months in a fleid hospital, and another 2 months in limited modified duty where he was not supposed to fly. When he did, he got hell for it... the injury itself left a crease in his skull, and left him with debilitating headaches which limited his flying abilities and judgement skills to the day of his death.
ElfenMagix-
Forum Posts : 5682
Location : NYC NY, USA
Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...
Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca
Comments : He has super powers. He is God.
Registration date : 2007-09-21
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Danjo3 Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 15:15
In the last ep. of season 2 (according to the subs I found) Jean told Rico she was to be medevaced out with Triela. The two were operated on at the same time, and left the hospital together.ElfenMagix wrote:Just because you dont see Rico operated on to repair damage, does not mean that it does not happen.
Danjo3- The Voice of Reason
-
Forum Posts : 2609
Fan of : Hillshire/Triela
Original Characters : Biff & Little Britney
Comments : OC hater par excellence.
Registration date : 2007-09-14
Re: Conditioning/brainwashing, what are they exactly?
by Nachtsider Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 15:26
The fact that Rico has armor around her skull would mean that she would hardly have suffered the way Richtofen did. But yeah - that hit may have required repair nonetheless.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
-
Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Similar topics» What's with the Conditioning?
» Conditioning Proccess?
» What really is in the Conditioning meds?
» Conditioning Drugs
» Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi
» Conditioning Proccess?
» What really is in the Conditioning meds?
» Conditioning Drugs
» Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi
Page 1 of 1
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum