GSGs in the Sniper Role

I've sometimes wondered what kind of sniper rifles the canon girls we haven't seen engaged in sniping would utilize when called upon to do so. However it seems to me that there's another question that really ought to be considered, and that's how widespread sniper training actually is among the girls. In the anime Rico, Etta, and Elsa are all seen acting as snipers. But in the manga Elsa is never seen doing this, and Etta only does it in training. Unless you consider Angelica's use of a bipod equipped AUG sniping, Rico is the only girl who is deployed as a sniper in the manga until one of the red shirt cyborgs uses a .50 Accuracy International rifle during the power plant mission (and its debateable as to whether that should even qualify given how she was using it).

So yeah... do you think sniper training is common among the girls or do you think it's the purview of a small group of specialists?

I think that all the girls are trained in a general sense but that each girl or group of girls is given an area to specialize in.

Yeah, I gotta agreee with CI on this one. Rico, as I see it, snipes but when she can no longer do that, she'll eb light on her feet. Someone like Triela on the other hand, is trained to ddeal with CQC, and is more of a heavy hitter. Then you get someone like Henrietta, who is somewhere in between, or perhaps a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, or so to speak.

And Angelica using the bipod with the AUG would be more of a support gunner or machine gunner role than sniper. But that's just my humble opinion.

Henrietta wasn't actually trained as a sniper, per se. Though Guis went briefly over how to use a scoped rifle, that's not really sniper training - it's more like general concepts of marksmanship.

If you look at the guns, you'll notice the rifles are generally DMRs rather than sniper rifles. The Sig 550 Sniper, Dragunov and such. At ranges that those are precise at, like across the street for Rico, you're not really getting into the real complex math that goes into sniping.

http://john-234.deviantart.com/art/Luce-and-Amsel-What-s-in-a-shot-270197452 Not to toot my own horn, but I did a lot of research into actual long-range rifle work. It's a world more complex than just using a standard rifle with a steady hand. It's not actually as complex as it seems, but it definitely takes time, money and practice. So I'd imagine most of the canon characters would have little of this sort of sniper training, if at all.

Piero wrote:But in the manga Elsa is never seen doing this...

Aw come on, man. The anime and manga events don't contradict each other.

My guess is that only a smattering of the girls are trained how to snipe, that being by the most dedicated handlers who want them to excel in multiple roles. I imagine most of their jobs wouldn't call for sniping, hence its being passed over by the lion's share of handlers.

I'm sure every cyborg gets basic lessons in sniper skills as part of her combat qualifications, but as CI78 alluded to, some are better at it than others.
The way I see it, every girl receives the "ground-floor" training with basic, mobile sniper rifles. If a cyborg shows talent at it she's given more intensive training...and is allowed to qualify on more specialized equipment like the Hecate & Barrett rifles.

Since a deployed sniper does not operate alone...working in concert with a spotter...the handler is an important part of the package. Jean & Rico are a good choice to work as a sniper team because Jean already needs to hang back and observe from a location where he can see everything. Conversely, it would make little sense to train Petrushka beyond the basics because she & Alessandro specialize in profiling & investigation. They need to get up close to be effective.

For the record, my OC cyborg is a lousy sniper...concentration issues forcing her to struggle just to meet basic standards.

Professor Voodoo wrote:Since a deployed sniper does not operate alone...working in concert with a spotter...

That's an ideal situation. Sometimes, the spotter becomes a luxury.

Nachtsider wrote:

Professor Voodoo wrote:Since a deployed sniper does not operate alone...working in concert with a spotter...

That's an ideal situation. Sometimes, the spotter becomes a luxury.

Sure...but I can't think of any canon example of a cyborg operating (as a sniper) without her handler/spotter. My point was that the handler has as much to do as the cyborg with a fratello being selected for more dedicated sniper training. If the cyborg is good at it, but the handler is ill-suited for the role there's little point in training them for that job.

Yeah, this goes back to the designated marksman thing though. The cyborgs carry DM weapons and operate at fairly short ranges, so their adherence to sniper protocols is debatable.

I might add that the Hecate and Barret would not be an upgrade for a sniper rifle. They'd be a sidewards step, into less accurate but more hard-hitting weapons. A more straight-up upgrade would be a .338 Lapua gun, probably some high-end bolt rifle.

Another interesting consideration - in real life, a spotter and sniper switch out to reduce fatigue. In GSG, this doesn't apply because the handlers always do the administrative work, while the cyborgs always do the gun work. In this sense, the handlers need a lot less training because they just need to spot targets and call out hits, rather than knowing the intricacies of the rifle and ammo and keeping logs. They'd still need to read mil-dots, but that's pretty easy.

John_234 wrote:
I might add that the Hecate and Barret would not be an upgrade for a sniper rifle. They'd be a sidewards step, into less accurate but more hard-hitting weapons. A more straight-up upgrade would be a .338 Lapua gun, probably some high-end bolt rifle.

I mentioned those two specifically because they'd be more expensive to fire. A cyborg could spend all day pounding away at paper targets with a 7.62 Dragunov the .338 Lapua rounds you mention but doing the same with a .50 caliber anti-material rifle can get costly.

That's what I base my opinion on. All the cyborgs are required to qualify on the "cheap" sniper equipment, but unless they show genuine skill there's no point in having them graduate to the expensive stuff.

Actually, .338 Lapua costs about the same as .50 BMG. If you reload your own ammo, the cost goes down significantly, but factory ammo is about $5 a round for both.

I guess that's true, but building a fairly accurate bolt gun isn't that expensive, to be honest. All that reinforces my view they're just used as DMRs instead of snipers, seeing as you have highly expensive autoloaders like the Sig 550 Sniper, which looks cool but is still chambered in a varmint round.

I'm with John234 in that all the girls get basic rifle marksmanship training and at close ranges (sub-300m) they should all be experts.

Rico is the only cyborg we've seen who as her normal load-out carriers a weapon optimized for longer-range engagements, so I'd argue she's the closest thing to a sniper the canon girls have. Elsa is a bit of a wild-card because she was fleshed out by writers other than Yu.

As such, I imagine the canon girls don't really do what would be traditionally considered "sniping", but instead tend to work in very close, using their power and armor to overwhelm their targets. Because Jean needs to stand back and oversee "the big picture", he trained Rico on the Druganov as it can "reach out and touch someone" at the ranges Jean works from.

My OC Kara is a sniper by training, however she's only sniped in a story by Professor Voodoo to date.

Nachtsider wrote:My guess is that only a smattering of the girls are trained how to snipe, that being by the most dedicated handlers who want them to excel in multiple roles. I imagine most of their jobs wouldn't call for sniping, hence its being passed over by the lion's share of handlers.

While I could debate how its determined which girls get sniper training (which handlers are qualified to provide the training probably plays a big role), your second sentence highlights a big part of why I brought this question up. With how limited the opportunities to make use of such skills in the field are how many cyborgs are actually going to be trained to have such skills?

John_234 wrote:Henrietta wasn't actually trained as a sniper, per se. Though Guis went briefly over how to use a scoped rifle, that's not really sniper training - it's more like general concepts of marksmanship.

If you look at the guns, you'll notice the rifles are generally DMRs rather than sniper rifles. The Sig 550 Sniper, Dragunov and such. At ranges that those are precise at, like across the street for Rico, you're not really getting into the real complex math that goes into sniping.

The term "Designated Marksman" is rather new and not universally used. Russian sharpshooters who use SVDs and fight as part of a larger unit are snipers. Police marksman making precision shots from less than fifty meters from their targets are snipers. Second World War sharpshooters who made shots from concealed positions in close proximity to their targets were snipers. The term is actually fairly broad, it doesn't just refer to people who are trained to hit targets at extremely
long ranges. Some European sniper rifles actually have scopes that are intended primarily for use at ranges of 600 meters or less.

Piero wrote:With how limited the opportunities to make use of such skills in the field are how many cyborgs are actually going to be trained to have such skills?

I'd be inclined to say just Rico (of the canon girls).

My OC, Simone is also primarily a sniper or placed in a counter-sniper role.

I imagine some sort of cross-training is generally viewed favorably by the bosses, since one never knows what can happen out there. That said, I guess some handlers will emphasize some aspects of weaponry skills and fighting over others.
Like hand to hand fighting, I'm assuming the smaller girls are generally taught to 'close the gap' since their natural reach is compromised, right? Quick hits, pressure points, but not necessarily too much emphasis on ground fighting in case more enemy come around while our heroes und heroines become too committed to one guy and have someone sneak up on them? I dunno....

Piero wrote:The term "Designated Marksman" is rather new and not universally used. Russian sharpshooters who use SVDs and fight as part of a larger unit are snipers. Police marksman making precision shots from less than fifty meters from their targets are snipers. Second World War sharpshooters who made shots from concealed positions in close proximity to their targets were snipers. The term is actually fairly broad, it doesn't just refer to people who are trained to hit targets at extremely
long ranges. Some European sniper rifles actually have scopes that are intended primarily for use at ranges of 600 meters or less.

Admittedly those Russian marksman are DM in every respect but name. They don't have spotters, use a low-mag scope, they carry grenades, machine gun ammo and a standard combat load, they also engage only slightly beyond the effective range of the AK and RPG-7 (300 meters or so.)

I guess I did go a bit overkill on terminology though. You made me remember that sniper is an extremely generic term - if I recall, it originated from crack shots with rifles who hunted small, hard to hit animals called "snipes." I guess it's really about tactics more than weapon or engagement range.

The snipe is a small wading bird,hunters have difficulty estimating a correct aiming lead for the bird's erratic flight pattern.
The difficulties involved in hunting snipe gave rise to the term “sniper,” referring to a skilled anti-personnel military sharpshooter.

Ah, right.

basically,all of the cyborg are trained to shoot their sidearm accurately...so it's not impossible that they can play a role as a sniper.

(someone please explain to me why on earth Gattonero fire a .50 caliber round toward VBM freccia in the nuke powerplant battle?is she trying to shoot the crewman inside the tank,or just providing distraction for petrushka?)

Probably because it was their only weapon that could even put a dent into it at all.

Though for operational security, it seems like it'd be necessary to have at least one sniper/marksman in the area to provide overwatch and track any leaks from the operation.

Granted, this seems to be a large part of Rico's role, but Rico can't go on every mission. However, it would also appear that most combat actions we see in GSG that would require a designated marksman (for example, the raid on the safe house on the Tiber River) have Rico coming along to provide said ranged fire support. Missions that involve guarding a VIP or whatever don't need a sniper or Des. Mrksmn., so we don't see Rico take that role.

Additionally, you could just hand a guy a pair of binoculars, but then you may as well get a sniper up there. That way, if the runner is going to get away, you can have the sniper shoot him.

Though that does beg the question: Does the Agency have support personnel for roles like Sniper, Grenadier, Support Gunner, etc.?

Most law enforcement organizations, and even Counter-Terror groups like GSG-9 and such just have normal operatives, and snipers. Truth be told they rarely ever use belt fed weapons, rockets or what not. If anything, you have people with extra training for medical, breaching, sniping and stuff like using grenade launcher for tear gas and whatnot.

You see this in the tower fight - a few cyborgs are simply handed grenade launchers.

John_234 wrote:Probably because it was their only weapon that could even put a dent into it at all.

that remind me....almost all IFV(including Bradley M2,BTR-80 or other infantry fighting vehicle) had thin armor for stopping small round such as 7.62 cartridge....i've seen a live fire test of .50 cal bullet shooting years ago
and it(.50)penetrate right trough any available modern armor(exclude tank)

An IFV's armor is primarily designed to stop artillery shell fragments. It is not designed to be proof against anti-material rounds.

The M113 is proofed against the 12.7mm, which is the typical heavy machine gun caliber. The Bradley is armored against 20mm cannon fire and sometimes RPGs, the Stryker, BTR and BMP are protected against 14.5mm machine guns.

So while the rifle has no real chance against that Italian IFV, it was the heaviest weapon they had, and they could potentially have broken a periscope or something.

John_234 wrote:The M113 is proofed against the 12.7mm, which is the typical heavy machine gun caliber. The Bradley is armored against 20mm cannon fire and sometimes RPGs, the Stryker, BTR and BMP are protected against 14.5mm machine guns.

So while the rifle has no real chance against that Italian IFV, it was the heaviest weapon they had, and they could potentially have broken a periscope or something.

so we use FMJ or just highly explosive round cartridge for disabling the crewman inside the IFV?

IFVs are proofed against small arms. They could hope to damage sensitive components, but my point is they were just firing because - why not?

El Conservatore wrote:Though that does beg the question: Does the Agency have support personnel for roles like Sniper, Grenadier, Support Gunner, etc.?

I always sort of figured Amadeo and Giorgio's SRT crowd could cover those bases if required.

Alfisti wrote:

El Conservatore wrote:Though that does beg the question: Does the Agency have support personnel for roles like Sniper, Grenadier, Support Gunner, etc.?

I always sort of figured Amadeo and Giorgio's SRT crowd could cover those bases if required.

just now,i've gotta hinch about my fanfic idea.....Gunslinger girl:the other side

GattoNero wrote:

John_234 wrote:The M113 is proofed against the 12.7mm, which is the typical heavy machine gun caliber. The Bradley is armored against 20mm cannon fire and sometimes RPGs, the Stryker, BTR and BMP are protected against 14.5mm machine guns.

So while the rifle has no real chance against that Italian IFV, it was the heaviest weapon they had, and they could potentially have broken a periscope or something.

so we use FMJ or just highly explosive round cartridge for disabling the crewman inside the IFV?

Do you get explosive 12.7mm? I had always worked under the assumption that 20mm was the smallest explosive round.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:

GattoNero wrote:

John_234 wrote:The M113 is proofed against the 12.7mm, which is the typical heavy machine gun caliber. The Bradley is armored against 20mm cannon fire and sometimes RPGs, the Stryker, BTR and BMP are protected against 14.5mm machine guns.

So while the rifle has no real chance against that Italian IFV, it was the heaviest weapon they had, and they could potentially have broken a periscope or something.

so we use FMJ or just highly explosive round cartridge for disabling the crewman inside the IFV?

Do you get explosive 12.7mm? I had always worked under the assumption that 20mm was the smallest explosive round.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
check it...almost 17(maybe...i lost count) type of ammunition for 12.7 .50 cal bullet especially armor piercing-incendiary round...

API can penetrate thin skinned vehicles, but these days its mostly used to take out unarmed stuff like trucks and roadside bombs. Won't do anything to a modern IFV>

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:

GattoNero wrote:

John_234 wrote:The M113 is proofed against the 12.7mm, which is the typical heavy machine gun caliber. The Bradley is armored against 20mm cannon fire and sometimes RPGs, the Stryker, BTR and BMP are protected against 14.5mm machine guns.

So while the rifle has no real chance against that Italian IFV, it was the heaviest weapon they had, and they could potentially have broken a periscope or something.

so we use FMJ or just highly explosive round cartridge for disabling the crewman inside the IFV?

Do you get explosive 12.7mm? I had always worked under the assumption that 20mm was the smallest explosive round.

There's the Raufoss MK211. I first read about it in a book about snipers in Iraq where it got rave reviews, and made a note of it because I figured it might come in useful for a Gunslinger Girl fanfic.

It's designed for EOD and AM use... or killing a cyborg, I guess ;>>

so triela's arm and leg were disabled by what type of .50 cal ammo? standard raufos mk211,or m1022 long range round?

John_234 wrote:API can penetrate thin skinned vehicles, but these days its mostly used to take out unarmed stuff like trucks and roadside bombs. Won't do anything to a modern IFV>

and rico only use mg3 to disable a single truck..........

Rico: my SVD and Mg3 are powerful enough to stop a single truck......
Henrietta: my cuteness is enough to stop 20 trucks.....^_^
Beatrice: *the look* -_-

GattoNero wrote:so triela's arm and leg were disabled by what type of .50 cal ammo? standard raufos mk211,or m1022 long range round?

I would expect standard ball rounds as I don't believe you need AP to do that damage to a cyborg.

GattoNero wrote:

John_234 wrote:API can penetrate thin skinned vehicles, but these days its mostly used to take out unarmed stuff like trucks and roadside bombs. Won't do anything to a modern IFV>

and rico only use mg3 to disable a single truck..........

A truck is a very soft target: thin steel and canvas.

Kiskaloo wrote:

GattoNero wrote:so triela's arm and leg were disabled by what type of .50 cal ammo? standard raufos mk211,or m1022 long range round?

I would expect standard ball rounds as I don't believe you need AP to do that damage to a cyborg.

GattoNero wrote:

John_234 wrote:API can penetrate thin skinned vehicles, but these days its mostly used to take out unarmed stuff like trucks and roadside bombs. Won't do anything to a modern IFV>

and rico only use mg3 to disable a single truck..........

A truck is a very soft target: thin steel and canvas.

and yet she waste all the ammo on one truck(come to think of it......COVERING FIRE!!!)

Henrietta:you ate my cookies!!!
Rico:*munching cookies* what cookies ?.....

GattoNero wrote:and yet she waste all the ammo on one truck (come to think of it......COVERING FIRE!!!)

They needed to stop the SUV in order to prevent the truck from escaping, so spraying it with a machine gun was the most effective way to do so as they were not planning to take prisoners (even though at least one of them did survive). Once the truck hit the brakes, Henrietta shot the driver.

i know...that's why COVERING FIRE!!!!
'