Like Weapon, Like Wielder

Wow, that's some really great info there. It's interesting to think about.

That is pretty cool! You've gone some nifty research that even a person like me with no knowledge about this stuff can get it. -thumbs up-

Awesome thread was, and still is, awesome.

Personally, I often have doubts about whether the author of a piece of material really intended for something to have the symbolic significance that can be attached to it. I found in English classes that I could often argue that something was symbolism, but not really believe that the author intended for it to be.

When I write fiction, I tend to like giving characters weapons that seem to fit them well (such as giving a highly professional character a P228), but often times I'm not necessarily trying to symbolise much with it. Although there was one instance where I gave a somewhat thuggish character who tried to act refined what essentially amounted to a fairly cheap (though effective) combat handgun with fancy decorative work done on it. (I think I was influenced by another piece of written material when I came up with that.)

So while there may have been an attempt to chose weapons that felt right for the characters, I think the idea of them being meant to be very symbolic is pretty iffy, at least in a lot of cases.

Also, Rico's weapons tend to strike me as being serviceable rather then uber accurate. The Beretta rifle for instance was basically a folding stock carbine version of the Italian Army's standard assault rifle, so it seemed like a practical choice. I was also under the impression that CZ75s were quite dependable weapons in addition to their other virtues, although LOC seems to think their cleanliness requirements are too high. Overall, Rico's firearms choices don't seem very brand conscious, more a matter of choosing a good tool for the job (although her Dragunov is a noteable exception to this -it often struck me as an iffy choice. It's not exactly all that accurate by sniper rifle standards and 7.62x54mmR isn't exactly the most common round for one to find in Western military units. Additionally, 7.62x54mmR doesn't really strike me as the easiest round to find high end ammo for.).

Also, don't know about the specific unit Marco was part of, but Italian Special Forces have apparently made use of the AUG. Something interesting to consider, don't you think? (Although given the number of weapons the girls use which aren't common in the Italian armed forces/law enforcement service, there likely wasn't really a connection.)

If I remember correctly, Marco was part of NOCS, which if I remember right, is similar to SWAT. I could be (and probably am) wrong though.

Guess what? You're not wrong.

Marco is former NOCS. I don't know for sure if they're one of the units that does/has used the AUG. I'm more familiar with the GIS, as that's the one my OC character was part of. Maybe I should do some more research on the NOCS.

Wooh! That makes me feel special. I finally didn't choak and screw something up.

Piero wrote:Overall, Rico's firearms choices don't seem very brand conscious, more a matter of choosing a good tool for the job

that's one reason... the other is that the Dragunov was the standard issue marksman's weapon for Soviet forces during the cold war and their invasion of the middle east... while the CZ-75 was the standard issue sidearm. Basically, Rico's outfitted like a Soviet markswoman.

Piero wrote:7.62x54mmR doesn't really strike me as the easiest round to find high end ammo for

that sorta depends on what kinda 'high-end' you're looking for... there's a fairly wide range of ammo to choose from for it, from hollow points to steel-core light ball.

I'm pretty sure most of the standard issue military sidearms in the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War were chambered in 7.62x25mm Tokarev and 9x18mm Marakov. I don't think the CZ75 was standard mil issue even in Czechoslovakia. Wasn't it designed for export?

And I was meaning high end as in match grade sorts of ammo. Ammunition quality has a big impact on accuracy in sniper rifles (although I've read that the Dragunov's original purpose was more comparable to a modern Designated Marksman's Rifle then a sniper rifle). There's a pretty large selection of high end loads in 7.62mm NATO, and that's probably a far more common round in Western military and Law Enforcement arsenals then 7.62x54mmR. Why is Jean going to all the effort of dealing with the logistics of a weapon that -while decent- isn't really all that exceptional in many respects? That Dragunov strikes me as being out of place. Wouldn't an HK sniper rifle or a BM59 modified for sharpshooting make more sense as a semi auto sharpshooting weapon? (Okay, I'm not 100% sure on the BM59 -there are at least a couple potential issues with that one: how easy it was to mount optics on it very well, whether or not there were many left that weren't too worn out...)

Maybe Olga recommended that Rico be armed that way.

Nicely written! Very interesting but a small mistake - Henrietta fires Sig Sauer P239 not 230 as you wrote.

Edited as noted. Thanks a bunch to you, P-90, and everyone else who's found merit in my essay.

...I see now that the only organization that actually officially adopted the CZ-75 is the Czech police force (it probably sees wide usage with the Special Forces of various countries, though)... the Dragunov sees use in a lot of places as a designated marksman rifle, though. Russia, Bulgaria, the People's Rebublic of China, Turkey, Finland, Venezuela, Iraq...
but yeah, there's no match-grade ammo available in 7.62x54r. I've read many a report that Wolf 148gr steel-core works just fine at 600m or less, and I'd say Rico's usual sniping distances are considerably less than that (almost always in urban areas).

Very well put, Natsch.
I can imagine what can be said about our OC Characters?
Rachel: Reliable, simple and yet powerful, like her personal weapon- the SW1911A. But when needed, can be direct and to the point, dont let her small size fool you; like her mission firearm: .32NNA which fires a .32 round from a .38 necked down casing- making a weapon that fires at hypersonic speeds and that can penetrate light body armour.

Fernando on the other hand can be quite boisterous and over bearing, often with too much to say like his AA Model 1984 - 16 round .45 cal. auto. Also like his AA 1984 .45, is no longer being made; meaning that agents like him are no longer being trained by the CIA or sent out on collaberate missions with other nations' missions.

Thanks, Elfen. You've given me a wonderful idea - let's all do similar write-ups for our OCs and post them in this thread.

Glad you like it.
And may the others enjoy!

Argh, lots of posts went by (excuse a little back tracking).

@ symbolism: I also think that a lot of the symbolism that people find and talk about in books was not actaully meant, but it's still often fun and interesting.

Rico's weapons seem to reflect her "durability" and a professional/highl dedicated attitude twoards getting the job done. She's not easy to take out with bullets or through emotional problemns, and the use of simple yet adequate weapons reflects the "We can kill with anything. If we were told to kill using bibles we would do that too." type of attitude.

[edit] I've got to start reading everything. LoC already said pretty much everything that follows... (But, I don't feel like deleting it. All that pointless typing. *grumbles* )

The Dragunov is not really a sniper rifle. It is really more of a dedicated marksman weapon, and if you look at the type of jobs Rico uses it for it's a good choice. The engagement range is usually around 300m (that's a wild estiment - what I mean is it's usually less then 500) and there are usually multiple targets, so a fairly (but not pin-point) accurate weapon with a good sized clip and a semi-auto action seems good.

I don't know about the ammo. I think for these distances you wouldn't necessarily need sniper grade ammo. If that's the case all you have to do is ask Claes to dig some up from her garden ( ).

I think that saddling Rico with a Dragunov was a good choice. So what if it's not a real sniper rifle? The engagements that the SWA get themselves tangled up in are almost always police-style shootouts where you won't normally find a target outside three hundred meters.

There is high end ammo for Dragunovs, but its not common. Lapua makes some for the Finnish military.

But anyway, yes, Rico does tend to operate at fairly short range. At that range, you can sacrifice some accuracy for fire rate and ease of handling. But even there, there can be situations which call for high accuracy -what if your target is only exposing a small part of his body, or even worse is using human shield?

Furthermore, as far as ammo goes, which do you think Italian military and LE tends to have more of on hand -7.62 Nato or 7.62x54mm R? And what if you need a round that will fragment nicely and has a low risk of overpenetration (such as 155gr Hornady AMAX), or one that's good at shooting through automotive glass (such as a variety of high end hunting bullets)?

And then there's the issue of how the standard Dragunov scope compares to some of the other scopes that are available...

Italian Special Forces have reportedly used the G3-SG/1. That's a pretty comparable weapon to the Dragunov, and it shoots 7.62 NATO.

But then, the fact that Yu Aida didn't select the G3-SG/1 for Rico means that its open for my OC fratello to use one as their go to gun for sharpshooting, so maybe I should just be happy with the decision?

I'll probably post something about some of the weapons used by my OC fratello at some point later.

Say, if you think about guns like that being assosiated by the character who wields them, then as for Olga, her Desert Eagle reflects a certain style.

i cant really find a good way to word it though... Limitations of not being Native English.

Desert Eagles are hand held cannons. Olga may be a girl but don't get on her bad side.

A part of me would like to believe that Olga secretly wants to be a gansta.

Olga: Freeze Padania! or il blast ya into shizzles~ wid dis here cannon...OMFG did i say that out loud?

Not inconceivable, Wil. A survey once revealed that a disproportionately large number of Russians are enamored with American pop culture - who knows what effect such an interest might have had on a young Olga, her cloistered life in the harshly repressive Soviet Union only fostering greater curiosity towards what lay towards the west.

Angie: Marco-san what's a shizzle?
Marco: it's something that is not pasta so it's none of your bussiness

Nachtsider wrote:Not inconceivable, Wil. A survey once revealed that a disproportionately large number of Russians are enamored with American pop culture - who knows what effect such an interest might have had on a young Olga, her cloistered life in the harshly repressive Soviet Union only fostering greater curiosity towards what lay towards the west.

-Olga applies for the SWA-
Lorenzo: So you were in the KGB... what are your preferences.
Olga: I like big pistols.
Lorenzo: 0_0 alryt i'll note that :lollol:

Okay, I'm not sure I did too well with this the first time, hence why I deleted that post. I'm going to try to take another shot at it now.

All the guns used by the Piero/Diana fratello are accurate, reliable, and pack a punch (either per shot, in capacity, or in both). One could therefore argue that they're practical, especially since Piero likes to use guns which are related to each other in terms of controls and mechanical operation. However, pretty much every gun the fratello uses is well made and priced accordingly, despite the fact that they're all combat pieces. So I think I'd tend to say that my fratello's guns are guns for serious professionals. I think this kind of fits Piero, seeing as he's a former GIS operator.

A list of some of my fratello's favoured weapons:

Manurhin MR-73 -Exceptionally accurate and well made .357 revolver. Primary sidearm of the French GIGN, who the GIS has good relations with. Piero's primary handgun, also used by Diana for special applications.
Sig P228 -Not very pretty, but reliable and accurate with good handling. Piero and Diana typically use 15 round Mec Gar mags, which use a patented spring design to increase capacity by two rounds over the standard P228 mags. Piero's concealed carry back up gun and Diana's primary concealed carry gun.
SiG P239 -Smaller, then a P228 and with less capacity, but identical in controls and has the same basic internal operation. Diana's back up gun for concealed carry. Her gun differs from Henrietta's in being straight black rather then two tone.
HK53A3 -A cut down HK33, this is essentially a 5.56mm MP5 (the GIS uses MP5s extensively). Short barrel length makes it very noisy and limits effective range, but used within their limitations these little rifles can be quite deadly.
G3-SG/1 -Sharpshooting rifle. Not as accurate as a top end bolt action, but accurate enough for many applications, and can defend its user at close range. A versatile rifle.

No one else going to say something about their fratellos here?

On another note, some of the other threads I've read on this board give me the impression Natchsider might not be too fond of the fact that my Fratello has added even more SiGs to the mix.

Too many SiGs spoil the broth, in my opinion. But don't let others' opinions dictate you.

Piero wrote:No one else going to say something about their fratellos here?

I'll tell you all you want to know about Biff and little Britney. As a matter of fact, I getting ready to post a new story in the Lucid Story thread.

ITS ABOUT TIME- YAY!!!(lol)

Nachtsider wrote:Too many SiGs spoil the broth, in my opinion. But don't let others' opinions dictate you.

I'd considered Glocks, but ended up going with SiGs. At least the Manurhin revolvers are quite different from the norm.

Although I'd also argue that not all SiGs give the same sorts of impressions. A P230 and a P226 are quite different pistols. One's a refined seeming concealed carry piece, the other is a serious combat pistol that isn't exactly known for its good looks.

Danjo3 wrote:

Piero wrote:No one else going to say something about their fratellos here?

I'll tell you all you want to know about Biff and little Britney. As a matter of fact, I getting ready to post a new story in the Lucid Story thread.

ElfenMagix wrote:ITS ABOUT TIME- YAY!!!(lol)

You asked for it, you got it. More little Britney (or is it?) Read it here - If you dare…Re: Lucid story (/lucid dream)

Hurray! It continues! As for my OC's. Their guns come from what I know. I know next to jack about weapons, so yeah.

Psst, if you've noticed, a lot of them come from MGS too. *Shifty Eyes* It may or may not be a coincidence.

This original need to be update!!

Adding more weapons!!

I am extremely partial to Heckler & Koch so that is what my OC's get.

I really like the modularity of the XM8 rifle, since one weapon allows Kara to perform many functions. I figure once the US Army canceled the program, Michele had the SWA snatch up a bunch as spares.

As for pistols, I like the P2000 SK sub-compact. It's small and .40 S&W is a decent round.

-Olga applies for the SWA-
Lorenzo: So you were in the KGB... what are your preferences.
Olga: I like big pistols.
Lorenzo: 0_0 alryt i'll note that :lollol:

Olga was stated in the ADV translation as being in protection detail before the SWA. Whether this was one of the sub-directorates of the KGB/GRU, I'm not sure.
We DO know that she has protection detail level driving skills, which if you watch some of those training vids, you get an idea of what real skill is.
Also, given her size, she would make an excellent bullet-sponge for some political shmuck. In her character's case, I could believe her DEagle was chosen because it suits her personality, not really because it represents her personality. It's not her choice because she is hard and huge, but because she chooses to use that level of force as her image.

The rest of the weapons are probably not chosen for their likeness to their owner, as such a view is based on perspective and not easily expressed. More than anything, I think the weapons were chosen mainly for function (individual tasking) as well as concealability.
An example of this can be seen in Henrietta and the P90. While I can see the P90 as being small and hard-hitting, to me at least, it looks cheap being that it's made primarily of plastics. That's kind of like the first year Chevy Avalanche was referred to as having 'little tykes' plastic, rather than 'real-truck' trim. Am I to think that Henrietta is cheap?

Her roll is in CQC, so her weapon needs to be compact, high rate of fire, and effective, all things the P90 fills, plus it looks cool.

My own choices of the Walther PPS, M24A3, and G36 for Jamie was based on her desired skill-set. She's an effective sniper, the G36 is for the assault work, and her PPS is perfect for concealment for everyday work. She uses other weapons as necessary, but her assigned weapons don't reflect her intentionally. They are simply chosen for their looks, purpose, effectiveness, and because I said so.

and because I said so

I can see your point about weapons suiting the character rather then representing them, Mav. A lot of the weapons used by my OCs are like that. However, there are some weapons which have a very strong association with certain characters and are distinctly that character's weapon. I think one could argue that Henrietta's P-90, Rico's Dragunov, and Triela's Winchester are all sort of iconic for their respective characters in a way that weapons like Etta's P239 are not. (A couple of my characters have weapons that I consider somewhat iconic for them as well, Diana's G3-SG/1 being perhaps the most pronounced example.)

And now that this thread is going again, I wonder if I should post an updated list of the weapons my OCs use... a lot has been changed and added since I first posted a list here.

Also, one more thing -Olga's Desert Eagle kind of bugs me. Doesn't seem like an appropriate weapon for the highly capable professional she's tended to strike me as being.

If Ogla uses the .50 Desert Eagle or the .45/.45 Super version of it, you have to consider that its a huge bullet coming at you. Even wearing a protection vest, it will knock you flat on your ass from the force alone.

The weapons are chosen for functionality over everything else, primarily for function for that particular cyborg would be going through. Henrietta is a room sweeper. Rico a sniper. Triela, much larger than Henrietta, will have something larger for her room sweeping and CQC situations- the Winchester suits this fine for her. It also depends on the handler's gun experience as well.

Handguns are more personal. Thus they would represent the owner better. Henrietta's SiG P239 Duo-Tone is a 'tiny and cute' gun, while jose uses a FiveSevenNine(?). Triela's SiG P229(?) is the same as Hillshire's. Rico uses the same or simillar to what Jean carries. Angie carries the same (I believe) as Marco does. All these guns were given from Handler to Cyborg because they fit the cyborgs well. Though they can handle huge guns, there no way Henrietta is going to be having a .50 cal Dessert Eagle in her rear waist mounted holster.

Like before- Fernando uses the AA M1984- a 1911 variant made by the now defunct American Arms. wider frame, 16 shot capability, and safety feaures added, makes the 1984 the Rolls Royce of the 1911s- if you can find one! (Not a single one has been made since the mid 1980s, but other gun companies are coping the M1984 into their 1911s...) Rachel uses the S&W 1911, both in .45ACP. They also use the .32NAA by North American Arms as mission weapons; a tiny but powerful gun, unsing an odd-ball .38 casing necked down to a .32 round. The results are impressive for such a tiny gun, and because of its size, Fernando chose it for their weapon for missions. It may reflect on their characters, espcially Rachel who is small, fast and deadly, but thats not why its being used. Functionality is the key for this team.

They also have the M1-Garand, M16 w/grenade launcher and the Barett .50 Sniping Rifle. But as a team, you will see them mostly running and firing into the fight in close quarter combat with their handguns. That is how they work and how they are. Rifles are just going to get in the way of the fight.

while jose uses a FiveSevenNine(?).

Might you be confusing the Five-SeveN with the FNP-9?

The Five-SeveN is a neat gun, though it's kinda like a 22WMR on steroids. It's a 5.7x28mm cartridge, which I have to say after having picked some up at the range one day, is an impressive little bastard. The accuracy and velocity out of that sucker are it's two major benefits, which are only enhanced by the AP bullets availiable to the military. Even sub-sonic, it retains a lot of it's capability, a reason the suppressed P90 is finding favor in a few circles. Huge magazine capacity is another plus.

While a penetrator/fragmentation design of bullet, it really has no stopping power without accuracy. It WILL take down a target if the shot placement is fatal, or if fired in massive numbers, but even a 380ACP (9x17) has more effect on a non-vital area. Larger calibers are great for their permanent and temporary cavity ability, if not for penetration.
If you know you're likely to face an armored opponent, take a five-seven chambered gun, or a large caliber that armor can't easily stop, like a 44mag or 50AE.

One thing I've been thinking about my own OC's choice of gun (M&P40) is the commonality of 40S&W ammo in Europe. In a fairly covert operating group like the SWA, using an uncommon cartridge can be like taking out an ad sign.

Please don't think I'm complaining, Elf, about your choice in the .32NAA (that is your story, your choice), but in terms of actually being covert, were one of those spent cases picked up by someone interested, it lends itself to being tracked, if not to the buyer, then at least between corpses and jobs. It's just an observation and thought process I've used in my own story work and i thought I'd mention it.
It's not like my choice of a .50Beowulf AR doesn't fall into that catagory, but then again ,there's nothing covert about the Beo.

Yes I did. I meant Five-SeveN.

And yes, you are right about the casing being traced.
But when in most missions, as per Episode 1&2 and the V1 of the Manga, the SWA seems to send a cleaning crew to deal with the mess. Who this cleaning crew is... remains to be seen but hints seem to show that its Ferro and the Logistics & Support Teams.

maverick375 wrote:One thing I've been thinking about my own OC's choice of gun (M&P40) is the commonality of 40S&W ammo in Europe. In a fairly covert operating group like the SWA, using an uncommon cartridge can be like taking out an ad sign.

Michele and Kara depend on forensics thinking the US Federal Bureau of Investigation is working Italian shores.

I still think the Desert Eagle is a very poor choice. There are other weapons that can be effective against opponents in body armour. Heck, there's are a number of armour piercing versions of 9x19mm out there. And a Glock, Sig Sauer, Beretta what have-you is a more practical service sidearm then a Desert Eagle. Those things are bulky, weigh about twice as much as many full size service pistols, have massive muzzle flash, use ammunition that isn't always easy to obtain, and aren't known for being particularly reliable. There's probably a good reason why professional military and police units use other sidearms.

As for handguns being more personal -I can see your point Elfen, but even so I don't think Etta's SiG can be considered iconic the way her P-90 is.

Wow, I just noticed this thread and really feel that I have to pitch in what I have.

The OC sides, huh?

One of the most distinctive weapon Frederick wields is the ancient yet
reliable StG44 (Sturmgewehr 44) which chambers 7.92x33mm Kurz round.
Although considered obsolete, the StG44 is among the pioneer of modern
day assault rifles similar to how Frederick is the prototype of the 2nd
Generations (in my fiction). His other weapon includes the Mauser C96
'Red 9' variant again--despite the old age--shows reliability and
endurance reflecting to Frederick's attitude service length at the
moment.
The MP40 and K98K were the mainstray standard-issue weapon of the
Wehrmacht during the second World War and up till' the end of the war.
The K98 went as far back as the first world war and still shows its
loyalty to the German. This reflects Frederick's attitude towards his
deceased handler and his standing, as well as his strong dedication
towards the Agency.

Overall, all weapon wielded by Frederick reflects William Koch, the
deceased handler of Frederick. Like the rest of them, he holds deep
history to what mold Frederick into what he is. Just how those weapons
mold what modern weapons became as to what it is today.

well let's see...
Mina & her H&K UMP .45cal- both have one thing in common, they are not too big, they are cute and they kill!

Ella & her Remington 1100 Tactical Shotgun- is not connected by the gun itself but by the fact that she assigned to Hilshire, it represents how Ella makes a bad replacement for Hilshire the same way such a shot gun would be a bad replacement for Triela's winchester.

Sophia & her Modified Heckler & Koch G3 (modified since it has a harpoon gun and is water safe) : the Heckler & Koch G3 is the national rifle of Ukrane, a jump in technology from their old weapons, same way that Sophia as the 3rd gen is a technological leap for the SWA. it is modified for water combat the same way Sophia is the only girl to be modified for the water as well.

Anica & her AWM L115A1 rifle- Like rifle like wielder, Anica is a superb sniper but useless in anything else aside from that.

Fei & her PP-19 Bizon w/ flash grenade launcher: both of them have an similarity in their unexpected versatility, the Bizon being a sub-machine gun is a surprisingly accurate weapon that can fire different kinds of rounds and can carry a grenade launcher, while Fei even though is the blind cyborg and is specified for low-visiual missions, is trained by her handler Iroh to be the most capable cyborg among the 3rd generation

Lance & his Modified FAMAS- Lance's FAMAS has been tweeked so often by his multimillion dollar agency that the French have proposed to buy the blueprints of them for immunity of all of their agents in France. Lance is not one to stay traditional, what is new and deadlier he will be willing to try. Because, one thing is for certain for him, if it's more efficient then the job could be done faster.

Piero wrote:I still think the Desert Eagle is a very poor choice. There are other weapons that can be effective against opponents in body armour. Heck, there's are a number of armour piercing versions of 9x19mm out there. And a Glock, Sig Sauer, Beretta what have-you is a more practical service sidearm then a Desert Eagle. Those things are bulky, weigh about twice as much as many full size service pistols, have massive muzzle flash, use ammunition that isn't always easy to obtain, and aren't known for being particularly reliable. There's probably a good reason why professional military and police units use other sidearms.

As for handguns being more personal -I can see your point Elfen, but even so I don't think Etta's SiG can be considered iconic the way her P-90 is.

The SiG P239 Duo-Tone (Henrietta's gun) is a 'cute gun'. Then again, so is the .32NAA with the right grips
But, as for body amour... The Fernando/Rachel (And Francesca) rule is, "If they dont go down after 2, go for a head shot."
"As much as some would say thay had, no company has ever made a bullet proof hat!" Seriously, there are bullet proof hats out in production, which would stop a bullet's penetration to the head and skull, but none stop the force of getting hit by the major leaguer swung baseball bat force that follows the impact. Maybe perhaps a military iron pot helmet, and even then I doubt it. In short, it may save your life, but you'll be laying on the ground unconscious for a couple of hours and wake up with a massive concussion and headache afterwards.

this has to be suitable for one of the girls ! a working handgun and cellphone combined !

Awinnell wrote:this has to be suitable for one of the girls ! a working handgun and cellphone combined !

Can you imagine what it would be like if all the girls had one -

Hillshire: “Triela! Get off your gun and go shoot that bastard!”