Way to return Claes her memories?

The SWA should try something like this ;

Simulated the incident the same situaton as Claes from the first start when she met Raballo and let Claes knows everything that happen with this handler and cyborg.

The climax is when Claes hear the cnversation from both of them at the water '' I'll be your leg''.


Plus,the library and books...

This would be very dangerous for the SWA. If Claes regained her memories, she would definitely want to find out how Raballo died, considering she revered him like a father. And if she found out that the SWA were the ones that killed him, she would flip out and go on a rampage.

But high risk,high return.

Wish she won't be harsh toomuch to Jean.

Harsh won't be the half of it. She'd murder him to avenge Raballo.

But if in the Half positive result?

Talk about a serendipitous thread.

In the current story I am writing, Claes is starting to recover more and more of her memories. I am working from the events portrayed in Chapters 6, 18 and 37 (the story takes place a few weeks after Chapter 37).

Some is due to dreams she is having. Individual conversations with Michele and with Kara sparks some more. And a trip along the Mediterranean to Monte Carlo recalls still more.

In Monte Carlo, Claes asks Michele if he knows someone named Raballo. She explains some of the things she's been remembering. Michele tells her it's likely just her imagination at work, but that evening he places a call to Jean Croce...

In Solution's Resolution, Claes is aware that she once had a handler, but the details as to what happened or why are still unknown to her. This is because of being years ahead of canon (according to some, not to me), that towards the end of their life spans, they will remember their pasts like Angie did.

But being paired up with Ferro and being brought out into feild missions again as put some sense into Claes' world in S'sR. Her only problem is the experiemental 2nd GEn programming that was put into her to test that a long with other things that were put into her that are now in current models. But as for Rabello's old room and the things inside, she consider that Holy Ground that Shall Be Defended for some odd-ball reason. We will have to wait and see on this one.

In Life Goes On, Claes has recovered her memory by discovering and reading snippets Raballo hid in books inside his library. She maintains her memory by making a journal of her own.

As can be expected, she's biding her time to take a shot at Jean. LGO is not going to end happily. -_-

I still don’t think Claes would go postal; she just doesn’t have it in her. Granted, she would be very upset and might even try to run away, but a killing spree? Nah. Now if we were talking Henrietta here, I would say definitely. Hell, she would go bat-shit crazy.

:Henrietta:

well seeing how memory deteriorate under extended exposure to the drugs caused Angelica to get her memory back at the last momoment maybe the same will apply for Claes

But if she did go on a rampage, how would her friends react when they are ordered to kill her? *coughhintcough*

Panzer IV wrote:But if she did go on a rampage, how would her friends react when they are ordered to kill her?

Well, if Rico was around when Claes took her shot at Jean, she could pretty much kiss her ass goodbye. I’m sure the other girls would do their best to stop her using less then lethal force, unless of course their own handlers were at risk, in which case all bets are off.

Claes being the cool calculating one would have figiured all this once she would remember, and then start to plot and plan on how to get revenage on those invovled. First she would find out who was involved totally, and then work on them before spreading out for her own self defense.

So that counts Rico as first or second slated. Jean would be immediately after. I would say some melted ExLax in their chocolate tart to slow them down before going for the coupe de gras on them two. The other involved will require more work.

But consider this- if her memories of Rabello returns, so will the lessons of combat he has taught her.

ElfenMagix wrote:But consider this- if her memories of Rabello returns, so will the lessons of combat he has taught her.

THIS.

Yeah, but she couldn't hit the broad side of a barn even after practicing all day in the rain.

Honestly, since the "love" and "loyalty" are part of the conditioning, I am not sure even if she did remember Raballo completely it would cause her to start shooting up the place since even if she remembered having those emotions, would they still be relevant? I still remember the absolute worship I had for a girl from 1992-1994, but when I visit her now, all that is in my heart is friendship.

She has deep respect for "the promise" even when she doesn't know why she should. Once she learns the truth of it, I would think that would be more of an inhibitor to rash actions then a trigger.

That was her first training session. Other subsequent training sessions were shown, during which she could have improved. During that outburst she had with Henrietta and Giuseppe, her performance as indicated by those target silhouettes wasn't what you could call shoddy, if I recall.

Here's a screencap of Claes' improved performance:

Kiskaloo wrote:Honestly, since the "love" and "loyalty" are part of the conditioning, I am not sure even if she did remember Raballo completely it would cause her to start shooting up the place since even if she remembered having those emotions, would they still be relevant? I still remember the absolute worship I had for a girl from 1992-1994, but when I visit her now, all that is in my heart is friendship.

Look how devastated Claes was when she heard he was dead. Feelings like that do not die easy.

Devastated? The Girl Practically Shut Herself Down!

Nachtsider wrote:Look how devastated Claes was when she heard he was dead. Feelings like that do not die easy.

Well that was the anime, was it not? And the anime takes some liberties with what was presented in the manga. In the manga, she's just told he is dead. Next frame she's just kind of stunned/shocked (maybe).

I don't think the anime and manga should be regarded as two different things. I feel that anything 'extra' we see in the anime is stuff that occurs 'between frames' in the manga.

Nachtsider wrote:I don't think the anime and manga should be regarded as two different things. I feel that anything 'extra' we see in the anime is stuff that occurs 'between frames' in the manga.

I concur, in that I believe Yu had an active hand in the anime, as well.

He may have a hand in the anime and manga, but he sure has lost it in terms of quality control.

But we're digressing here.
In the anime, glassesless Claes is a terror and a killer just like any other gunslinger girl. She has training and she has skills that she remembers from somewhere, and has used them in Ep 12/Sea 1.

In the Manga- glassesless Claes killed Petra's behind for taking her glasses. No arguement to to who what how or why on this one. It was done. We can argue semantics on is on another thread. But Glasses Claes is not truly capable of fighting back.

The point is here- If Claes gets her memories back and is she found out that Rabello was killed through Jean's (and Rico's) actions, she will kill them both. She will kill them both because it is the least expected action they think she will take, and it will cost them dearly for it. If you noticed, Jean has been throwing tests at Claes to see what her reactions would be, to see if she does remember, by how much and to wht extent her reactions will be. Thus far he must be thinking that he has gotten away with murder, but one day... just one day... Jean's new hobby will be pushing up daisies in Claes' garden.

Well Claes was certainly ready to shoot at least Henrietta when she posed a threat to Raballo, but it is not quite clear if she and Henrietta were actually re-conditioned afterwards as Jean stated needed to be done. I do think that did drive Raballo to "break the code" and go public, however...

In the Anime, only Claes was re-written.

In the Manga, it would be V2/Ch6/P26 (or so), does show that only Claes was rewitten "for safety purposes."

In neither case, Henrietta was rewritten.

Does 're-writing' mean that the subject wakes up a blank slate with no memories once more? If so, it's highly unlikely that Claes was re-written prior to Raballo's death, as a re-write would be inconsistent with her final meeting with him in the parking lot, and her reaction to his passing.

Nachtsider wrote:Does 're-writing' mean that the subject wakes up a blank slate with no memories once more? If so, it's highly unlikely that Claes was re-written prior to Raballo's death, as a re-write would be inconsistent with her final meeting with him in the parking lot, and her reaction to his passing.

The manga made it clear that her memories of Raballo were wiped after his death.

Yeah, I know. I was wondering aloud about all this talk that Claes could have undergone a re-write prior to Raballo's death.

I still really want to know what exactly 're-write' is supposed to mean.

Nachtsider wrote:I still really want to know what exactly 're-write' is supposed to mean.

I am guessing it would be to strengthen the girls loyalty to the SWA. Henrietta and Claes almost killed each other's handlers, which cannot be allowed to happen.

Jean blamed it on Giuse's lack of conditioning and discipline over Henrietta, but he did note that they both needed it, even though it would result in their dying sooner.

So it doesn't mean that a re-written cyborg wakes up a blank slate? Then why not just call it 'pumping them with more drugs'?

Nachtsider wrote:So it doesn't mean that a re-written cyborg wakes up a blank slate? Then why not just call it 'pumping them with more drugs'?

I am guessing "re-writing" means adjusting certain parts of the conditioning. Such as strengthening the loyalty to the SWA and to not do harm to any handler without specific orders to do so (since I imagine the SWA would send their own after their own).

Ah. That's all well, then.

how come everyone is implying that remembering will make her know Raballo's reason of dying, won't she just remember that she had a handler and be upset and desolate for the rest of her life?

Claes won't know immediately, of course. But she might start poking around to find out HOW he died. And then...

ElfenMagix wrote:In the Manga- glassesless Claes killed Petra's behind for taking her glasses. No arguement to to who what how or why on this one. It was done. We can argue semantics on is on another thread. But Glasses Claes is not truly capable of fighting back.

Sorry Elfen, but I really do have to comment on this. Petra WAS NOT fighting back against Claes. Petra DID NOT want anything to do with that fight. Look how it ended – Petra is just laying there, totally unhurt. Do you honestly think a real fight would end like that? If you want a real fight, look at what happened to Claes on the boat. She got her ass whooped by a non-cyborg woman.

As I said, Claes might get away with killing Jean if she sneaks up behind him and puts a bullet in his head, but that’s as far as it will go. After that she’s finished (by being restrained or killed).

Claes wasn’t with Raballo long enough to get that much training in the first place and by now she’s so out of practice that it’s ridicules ( again, see vol.7). Do you honestly think she’s going to stand a snowballs chance in hell against a bunch of crack cyborgs and ex-special ops personnel who train on a daily basis? I don’t think so.

The way I see it, if Claes plays her cards right she might be able to take out Jean, but after that, it’s game over.

Oh, and if Rico were with Jean, Claes would have to kill him with one shot because that’s all she would have time to get off before Rico did her it.

I am guessing "re-writing" means adjusting certain parts of the conditioning

I'm thinking differently. I don't think re-writing means adjusting certain parts of the conditioning and feed it to her--that's similar to like 'pumped her with new conditioning'.

I checked a little about neurology and the work of the brain in TOK class. There's this one lobe in the brain that is used to store memories and--if something happens to it--can be a little fatal and could cause memory loss. I have to check again, but I believe the Agency injected something into her head when her memory is re-written.

Vol.7, chapter 34. Quote from Belisario:

“To erase a persons memory is easier then most think. One must only stimulate the right spot on the brain with electricity.”

Think in terms of a block diagram, where the subject's mind is sectioned off into areas for manipulation. In the girls' mind, memories of their past are erased when applicable if and when such memories could pose a threat to they being a cyborg or on missions.: Henrietta, Claes, and the mistake on Angie. Others like Rico, Angie originally, and Triela were not erased; at least not totally. At this point the girls go through programming.

A large part of this is for handling their new cyborg bodies. Reprogramming the brain to adapt to the new systems connected to it and how to control it. It also shuts down the pain and phantom limb syndrome that such patients would under go in limb replacement.

Another large part of this goes into loyalty and following orders of their handers. In Type 2- SWA Higher Command was added. This is so that the girls would remain true to their handlers and not freak out in missions.

A minor part is openned up for education of the girls. We can have total blooming idiots out there running around with guns, can we? Thus this creates a student who is a quick learner and excells in her studies. This if you throw mission related materials at her, she can quickly absorb the material and follow the orders through to the letter. This is also true when they are to learn how to use new weapons, they can do so quickly.

Another minor piece is of weapons handling and targetting selection. This is still flakey on the type one (Henrietta going after Rabello and Claes going after Henrietta for going after Rabello), as if two gaurds start fighting and then their guard dogs jump in to get a bite on the potiental threats to their masters.

Other aspects are also manipulative, but are too many to list.

In Claes' second rewrite- her programming on dealing with targeting was rewritten, as to keep her safe from attacking other cyborgs and handlers as she tried with Henrietta. Jose did not want Henrietta to undergo this proceedure 'it shortens their life span.' Sounds to me that a massive dose is needed to rewrite the mind, even a small section of it, and it is this massive dose that does the life shortening. Its as if the drug is also a poison that accumillates over time. In Claes' third and current rewrite, only her memories seems to have been erased or rewritten so that Rabello did not exist or is hidden.

The problem with brainwashing, is that memories are not erased, but rather suppressed. Unless the nueron that contains the actual memory is killed, that memory will remain in the subject for life. The only thing that a brain washer can do is to manipulate other nueron to kick in place of that nueron, thus hiding/repressing tha memory, and replacing it with other memories. Thus in the end, the one who was brain washed, remembers everything. At time, certain key events can trigger the repressed memory- but this is a whole psycological issue to deal with. But this is why Jean is constantly testing Claes on her past memories.

It is just a matter of time before Claes remembers. Question is, what condition will she be in when it does, and what can she do about it. If she is anywhere near her current state of activitiy, then she is going to do a lot of investigative work to find out who order the hit on Raballo and who pulled the trigger. We all seem to agree that Jean ordered the hit and Rico pulled the trigger. Therefore- it will be those two who Claes will go after and sucessfully kill. But if she ends up in a sickly state like Angie was in, there will not be much from which she will be able to do before she dies.

Danjo3 wrote:Vol.7, chapter 34. Quote from Belisario:

“To erase a persons memory is easier then most think. One must only stimulate the right spot on the brain with electricity.”

That only kills that nueron and then you'll have a person who is capable of not remembering anything.

ElfenMagix wrote:Therefore- it will be those two who Claes will go after and sucessfully kill.

I suppose if Claes really wanted to get both Jean and Rico, she could always hook a bomb up to his car and blow ‘em up. Other then that, she’s going to have to settle for one or the other. I guess she’ll just have to flip a coin.

Edit: I would be impossible for Claes to investigate Raballo’s death with out anyone knowing about it. She would have to have access to some of section 2’s most classified material. Just not going to happen.

This assumes there is a record for Claes to find...

They buried Lauro and Elsa's ballistics report in a black hole because I believe it showed both bullets were fired from Elsa's gun which proves Henrietta's theory. But their hands were tied because the Rome police were first responders and it became public knowledge, which required Section 2 to investigate - and then cover-up - what actually happened.

In the case of Raballo, we can't even be sure it was Jean who carried out the hit, whether with or without Rico. Frankly, I think the risks of using Rico outweigh the benefits. Raballo was physically challenged. Not like he was going to see Jean and run like the wind, needing a cyborg to chase him down and dispatch him. Also, their not going to kill him in public and risk exposure. If Rico was involved at all, it would likely be in a kidnapping role to secure him for termination at a later date.

Personally, I think Raballo was killed in a hit and run - a hit and run orchestrated by Section 2 - and likely SpecOps director Petris - using a "hired gun" from the local criminal community. And a real hit and run means that when Draghi hears about it, his interest won't be piqued like it was when Elsa and Lauro were killed. And the reporter Raballo was supposed to meet with will be satisfied, as well, wondering about "the story that got away".

Heck, Jean doesn't even have to be involved in it at all. It could all be Petris and Lorenzo. As for Jean being the one who informs Claes, it can be as simple as the fact that Jean is the senior member of the Section and could have been tasked to tell her by Lorenzo.

Ok, on a side note...

In the story I am working on, events occur that cause Claes to start to recover at least snatches of some of her memories. She still doesn't understand their context, though.

Do you feel that Claes' refusal to fire a gun is absolute - she just won't pull the trigger, period - or that her failure to shoot on the boat in Chapter 34 was because she did not want to take a life?

I've written a scene where she, of her own volition, decides to watch Kara practice firing her XM8 and P2000 SK in preparation for the mission they go on. It's pretty much just a quick firing test to make sure that the weapons are working properly and are accurately dialed in.

Michele has his own personal weapon with him, a VP70-M with holster-stock given to him as a boy by his father. While he uses his Agency-issued P2000 SK, he does take it out every now and then to fire.

That weapon, as we all know, is the one that was Claes' personal sidearm when she was paired with Raballo. She recognizes it, but she doesn't know why she does, since she normally doesn't partake in firearms practice.

I'm debating whether or not to have her actually fire it. Hence the reason why I am wondering if folks think her "block" is absolute or just when it comes to taking life. Personally, I can write it either way - if she won't shoot, then Michele just lets her hold it. Either one causes sparks of memory to come back, again confusing and out of context.

I'm going with the glasses on/off Claes scenero on this one. As such, when Rabello trained her, its been Glasses off, even though he trained her to second think her objective before pulling the trigger.

In S'sR, Claes still has her gun, locked up in the gun locker every room has. She has not fired it since Rabello's death until S'sR Airport mission. In all, Claes is still a Gunslinger Girl and above everything else, there is nothing she would rather be doing than going onto the field and do missions.

Aside from that. In thinking how the Human mind works, Claes picking up Michele's gun would open a flood gates of memories- mostly jumbled pieces that will make no sense to themselves but pieced back together will show her the past. The problem is, she does not know where to begin or how to piece it right. If she fires it (as you know, with the rear stockin place, it becomes a 3 round automatic weapon) with one round fired, she might get a few memories. But I would speculate that if she fired it in 3-round automatic mode- since it is the only unique firing pattern she had compared to all the other girls, in its uniqueness- the Hover Dam of fragmented memories will fall upon her. How she handles it, is on you.

I've already explained how I feel about the 'glasses on/glasses off' thing, in that I feel it's a gross oversimplification of how things work.

Kiskaloo, I agree that Jean need not necessarily have been involved in Raballo's murder, much less Rico. However, I feel that involvement of a fellow cyborg would allow for more drama and many interesting scenarios that could allow for great fanfiction. The idea that one of Claes' friends would be hiding such a terrible secret, couple with how Claes might react if she knew that said friend had Raballo's blood on her hands, is excellent food for thought.

As I have written it at the moment, Claes wants to fire it. She sees the praise Michele bestows on Kara and how Kara beams under his praise. It triggers in her a desire to be praised, as well, and she asks Michele if she can fire the weapon. He agrees.

Michele helps her set the proper stance and she fires six rounds at single shot, getting used to the weapon. She notes that it "feels right" in her hand, but the initial recoil surprises her, though as she fires she becomes more comfortable with it. Michele then notes that the weapon can fire three-shot and attaches the butt-stock. He notices that her natural stance with the weapon in this configuration is the proper one for target shooting so he sets up a silhouette for her. She rips off four sets of three round bursts and puts four in the head and five in the torso. The pattern is a bit ragged, but it's decent. Kara is impressed as is Michele.

They're the only people in the room (other then the range master and I'm tempted to have him exit before Claes fires) and Michele doesn't know Claes used the VP70-M. He just knows that she had to have been trained in firearms and he figures a 9mm pistol would be "mild" enough for her.

It's already been linked to death, but I'll do it again for Kiskaloo's benefit:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2512377/1/Of_Eyeglasses_And_Multiple_Personalities

This story, I feel, explains the whole glasses issue perfectly.

Yes, I read that one.

I do touch on the glasses thing at a later point (Kara and Claes have a talk in the hotel room in Geneva), but I don't really accept it being an "on" and "off" thing. Raballo was clear that there were times she needed to respond to violence with violence, but that she should keep her humanity.

ElfenMagix wrote:In all, Claes is still a Gunslinger Girl and above everything else, there is nothing she would rather be doing than going onto the field and do missions.

I disagree. I don’t think any of the girls are too crazy about the work they’re doing. They do it because they have to and to please their handlers. If selling cookies could achieve the same goal, I have no doubt they would rather do that instead. And I’m sure no one feels as strongly about this as Claes, who being a pacifist at heart, feels that any kind of violence is a betrayal of her promise.

Nachtsider wrote:I've already explained how I feel about the 'glasses on/glasses off' thing, in that I feel it's a gross oversimplification of how things work.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2512377/1/Of_Eyeglasses_And_Multiple_Personalities

Agreed. I think the glasses on/off theory is somewhat insulting to Claes’ intelligence.

Petra is not the only one the medical team has f'ed up on her memories. There was Henrietta (fortunately for her), and Angie. And why not Claes? She is holding onto a subconscious program put there by the promise she made to Rabello. It is an Emotional Memory, which typical conditioning mindwipes can not affect for some reason. Thus, she is acting on a subconscious level when the glasses are taken on or off.

Note: Subconscious- Not Conscious, Not Fully Aware of the sitatuon. she has even stated so when she had to explain why why attacked Petra. And in that, I still say she kicked Petra's ass when Petra took her glasses and that she fucked up on that boat mission because of her not taking off her glasses.

If Claes was aware of what was going on with her and the glasses, she would be the most dangerous of the girls because of her ability to think outside the box and use this added 'ability' to her advantage.

This is not an insult to her intelligence. How can it be when the mechanism running this run under its own program hidden from her intelligence? This is not necessary a different personality switch, but a different programming switch.

ElfenMagix wrote:Note: Subconscious- Not Conscious, Not Fully Aware of the sitatuon. she has even stated so when she had to explain why why attacked Petra. And in that, I still say she kicked Petra's ass when Petra took her glasses and that she fucked up on that boat mission because of her not taking off her glasses.

Kicked her ass? I tell ya Elfen, it’s hard to believe we are looking at the same book. All that happened was that Claes surprised Petra, Knocked her down, took her glasses back and walked off and all the while, Petra was not fighting back. She was just making a half-hearted attempt to defend herself. If this had been an ass kicking fight, Petra would have been beating the living shit out of Claes. There would have been fur and blood flying in every direction, but nothing even close to that happened. As I said earlier, Petra wanted nothing to do with it.

And as far as the boat is concerned, do you honestly believe the out come would have been different simply because she removed her glasses? Would taking them off suddenly turn her into Super Claes? Would she have been able to dispatch that woman with one hand tied behind her back? I’m afraid the answer is an obvious no. Claes’ problem was not the glasses on her face, it was her lack of training and an aversion to violence that fucked her up (to this day, I don’t know what was going through Jean’s head when he decided to put her in that situation). She later said she wanted to pull the trigger but couldn’t. It’s ridiculous to think that if her glasses had accidentally fallen off, she would have started blasting away at everything that moved. I think you need to give her character a little credit.