Rainbow Six // GSG cross??

Well, both stories kill terrorists and are beyond top secret.

Seriously though, it sounds like a good idea. I look foward to hearing more.

Ditto, soundz good, me like !

It's worth mentioning that it's pretty much impossible to match Clancy's attention to detail. So if anyone attempts this, it's probably best to leave the exposition up to the reader to fill in on their own. Heh.... -_-'

Oh, it's definitely possible to do it, just not suggested. I don't know how many times he said that the Sig-Sauer P226 with a fifteen round magazine was a favorite handgun of Force Recon in the Jericho Sanction. That sort of detail melts brains, just IMHO.

The principle thing about Rainbow Six is that it's supposed to be very realistic, slightly futuristic but modern counter-terrorism with political intrigue. It's basically the same stuff as GSG, but with less technology. That said, actually having Rainbow unit and Tom Clancy characters would be kinda odd, though not impossible...

The biggest oddity, I think, would be getting someone like Domingo Chavez to work with Jean Croce. Can you imagine the head butting? Damn.

Also, the Rainbow team strikes me as being extremely against such thing as using little girls as cyborg super weapons.

Yeah. They're kinda like, pillars of moral decision in an otherwise cold and decisive world. Which is ironic considering they're a counter-terrorist unit.

I get the feeling they woulda handled Giacomo Dante much better than the SWA, though.

I think that's just Aida's hair-brained logic at work more than an inherent weakness of the SWA.

I dunno, Jean seems like one of those guys who gets really really cold and really really passionate simultaneously when he's angry. It seems perfectly plausible for his character that he let his emotions over-rule his logic during those assaults on Dante's terrorist attacks. The Venice Job could have been done better, for example.

Although I wonder: Would it have been overkill to use an RPG on the door?

They were using grenade launchers already, so probably not.

The frontal assault was completely moronic given the circumstances, but had they gone with that, why didn't they smoke the entire courtyard? Why didn't they lob tear gas into the tower to blind the attackers? Why didn't they snipe who they could through the walls? Why didn't they use an EOD robot to go into the front, or hell, just ram the front down with another APC?

I mean, you can explain it all by saying "it was for the sake of drama" but ultimately little makes sense about the clocktower at all. The power plant is a little more feasible because it's such a restrictive environment.

Although it probably is a little insane to have 12.7 mm ARs....

John_234 wrote:The frontal assault was completely moronic given the circumstances, but had they gone with that, why didn't they smoke the entire courtyard? Why didn't they lob tear gas into the tower to blind the attackers? Why didn't they snipe who they could through the walls? Why didn't they use an EOD robot to go into the front, or hell, just ram the front down with another APC?

Personally, I think Section Two overestimated their own abilities and underestimated their opposition's capabilities.

The Series One cyborgs are shock troops. They're designed to soak up small arms damage to allow them to close with the enemy and then overwhelm them with shock and awe.

Unfortunately, thanks to Cristiano having witnessed their tactics and abilities directly, he knew how to counter them and therefore he laid a trap that Section Two and the Gen 1's promptly stumbled into. And yet even then, they did pull it off and only lost two cyborgs and this might be why Jean was willing to use the same tactics at New Trino (though with far more disastrous results for the fratelli).

Kiskaloo wrote:

John_234 wrote:The frontal assault was completely moronic given the circumstances, but had they gone with that, why didn't they smoke the entire courtyard? Why didn't they lob tear gas into the tower to blind the attackers? Why didn't they snipe who they could through the walls? Why didn't they use an EOD robot to go into the front, or hell, just ram the front down with another APC?

Personally, I think Section Two overestimated their own abilities and underestimated their opposition's capabilities.

The Series One cyborgs are shock troops. They're designed to soak up small arms damage to allow them to close with the enemy and then overwhelm them with shock and awe.

Unfortunately, thanks to Cristiano having witnessed their tactics and abilities directly, he knew how to counter them and therefore he laid a trap that Section Two and the Gen 1's promptly stumbled into. And yet even then, they did pull it off and only lost two cyborgs and this might be why Jean was willing to use the same tactics at New Trino (though with far more disastrous results for the fratelli).

So, Krogan battlefield doctrine then.

Grunt, Commander of Aralakh Company wrote: I don't need luck. I have ammo.

Kiskaloo wrote:

John_234 wrote:The frontal assault was completely moronic given the circumstances, but had they gone with that, why didn't they smoke the entire courtyard? Why didn't they lob tear gas into the tower to blind the attackers? Why didn't they snipe who they could through the walls? Why didn't they use an EOD robot to go into the front, or hell, just ram the front down with another APC?

Personally, I think Section Two overestimated their own abilities and underestimated their opposition's capabilities.

The Series One cyborgs are shock troops. They're designed to soak up small arms damage to allow them to close with the enemy and then overwhelm them with shock and awe.

Unfortunately, thanks to Cristiano having witnessed their tactics and abilities directly, he knew how to counter them and therefore he laid a trap that Section Two and the Gen 1's promptly stumbled into. And yet even then, they did pull it off and only lost two cyborgs and this might be why Jean was willing to use the same tactics at New Trino (though with far more disastrous results for the fratelli).

You're probably right, but I can't help but think creating cover and smoking out your enemies is a very basic part of boarding a reinforced position. I mean, even if the bad guys had gas masks, don't you think a bunch of tear gas would have made it hard to hit a fast-moving cyborg with a rifle?

The assumption was probably that the speed of the cyborgs in that situation would be sufficient to make any attack be effectively "WTF" for the terrorists. Most terrorists aren't very bright, so it's probably unlikely that they would booby trap the door with a huge-ass bomb.

... they shot down a helicopter with a Stinger. I'm pretty sure the government knew they weren't run of the mill revolutionaries.

Okay, true. Still, humans are constantly in denial.

"They couldn't possibly have more than just the few stingers," said Jean as he planned the attack. "It's probable that we can just stage a frontal assault."

I tend to subscribe to Occam's Razor, and in this case it's a lot simpler to assume Aida didn't put a whole lot of thought into it rather than assuming that three quarters of the characters involved decided well-disciplined guys armed with a large bomb and missile launchers weren't that much of a threat.

El Conservatore wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:

John_234 wrote:The frontal assault was completely moronic given the circumstances, but had they gone with that, why didn't they smoke the entire courtyard? Why didn't they lob tear gas into the tower to blind the attackers? Why didn't they snipe who they could through the walls? Why didn't they use an EOD robot to go into the front, or hell, just ram the front down with another APC?

Personally, I think Section Two overestimated their own abilities and underestimated their opposition's capabilities.

The Series One cyborgs are shock troops. They're designed to soak up small arms damage to allow them to close with the enemy and then overwhelm them with shock and awe.

Unfortunately, thanks to Cristiano having witnessed their tactics and abilities directly, he knew how to counter them and therefore he laid a trap that Section Two and the Gen 1's promptly stumbled into. And yet even then, they did pull it off and only lost two cyborgs and this might be why Jean was willing to use the same tactics at New Trino (though with far more disastrous results for the fratelli).

So, Krogan battlefield doctrine then.

Grunt, Commander of Aralakh Company wrote: I don't need luck. I have ammo.

I think that only works for Krgan because they're walking tanks. Do you recal the Black Widow (anti-material rifle that is said to break some soldiers arms when fired) was designed to defeat armour and Krogan.

John_234 wrote:I tend to subscribe to Occam's Razor, and in this case it's a lot simpler to assume Aida didn't put a whole lot of thought into it rather than assuming that three quarters of the characters involved decided well-disciplined guys armed with a large bomb and missile launchers weren't that much of a threat.

I agrre though, it oculd have been handled a lot better. How deep was the water around the tower anyway, would it have been posible to have some scuba guys sneak in?

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:

John_234 wrote:I tend to subscribe to Occam's Razor, and in this case it's a lot simpler to assume Aida didn't put a whole lot of thought into it rather than assuming that three quarters of the characters involved decided well-disciplined guys armed with a large bomb and missile launchers weren't that much of a threat.

I agrre though, it oculd have been handled a lot better. How deep was the water around the tower anyway, would it have been posible to have some scuba guys sneak in?

Agreed on Occam's Razor.

As to the water, not THAT deep and, frankly, a scuba diver would have been easy to spot from the top of the San Marco tower. The San Marco's Square is generally dry, the flooding in the manga happens a few times a year and is part of Venitian life. That it's Venice also rules out the APC since a) getting it there would be difficult and b) wheeled vehicles are banned as pedestrial hazards and to preserve what is quite a fragile relic (though the grenade launchers probably make that less of an issue). That said I'd say the water would have been deep enough to hinder its movement anyway.

On that note though, another reason for the SWA to underestimate the Padania could possibly be that Dante's tactics are very different from those of the organisation as a whole. He has heavier weapons for starters, more disciplined men... also the FRF leadership to this stage has been unwilling to risk any of Italy's monuments or national treasures in its attacks, or at least parts of it have been. If that was a standard pattern for their operations, it would have been resonable (if incorrect) for the SWA to assume this engagement would play out as type. I can't remember if they knew about the warhead before time, but even then they may have assumed it was a bluff.

It's probably not unreasonable to assume that the Stingers could have been the extent of their heavy weaponry.

Stingers and Strelas, while not a dime-a-dozen, are not uncommon on the black market, either.

Well considering a Stinger costs something like $40,000 US I would at that point assumed they had much cheaper belt-fed and antimaterial weapons on hand. I'm pretty sure counter-terrorist specialists would know this too.

Everything said about unusual and new tactics is absolutely true, but if anything that should make an experienced CT group more cautious, not the opposite.

Well, Rule of Drama overrules everything, right?

But we digress. This IS supposed to be the thread where we discuss the possibility of crossing Rainbow Six and GSG.

Right, so it is fairly pertinent. Tom Clancy for his excessive detail does also try to make scenarios somewhat plausible, being essentially a giant military geek. It's a tough balance between that and the stylistic-but-realistic GSG we all like.

Ah, I see what you mean then. But we haven't tossed Rainbow into the mixture yet, so going off the same scenario, what do you figure would be the plan Clark or Chavez would come up with?

During the night, they'd probably have someone drill a hole in the wall to get a fiber optic cam in, find the blueprints to the building, use drones to scout stuff out.

Use thermal imaging and around-the-clock surveillance to pin down where people are, who the leaders are, etc. In the meanwhile, operatives run clearing drills in a replica of the interior.

They would wait as long as possible before starting an operation, for several reasons. You want to peacefully resolve the situation if possible. Otherwise, you want to tire them around since the terrorists have to pull guard duty and will grow anxious. A total blackout of the surrounding area and the appearance of no local assets would increase their paranoia. Or they might go full out psych warfare, launching smoke grenades every few hours, propaganda, etc. The press blackout is really important as Padania would doubtlessly have local assets feeding them news on the formations and composition of government troops.

The attack would happen at dusk, when people are naturally the most tired and unaware. Everyone would be kitted out with full kit, breaching charges, etc. Honestly, with some minor intel they'd see the AT rifles and the booby-trapped front door.

Snipers would find targets and take out as many as possible. So they'd have someone access the power supply and kill it. Flood the place with smoke and tear gas liberally to drive them out, or make them don bulky gas masks and such.

Because they know the front entrance is mined, they would probably have an EOD robot destroy it, or hit it with an armored vehicle. Ground and abseiling elements would need to attack simultaneously and decisively. Suppressed weapons, night vision, laser sights, thermal imaging would assist levying the fight. Ideally, most assets would attack from upper floors since the stairwells and such are certainly killing zones. If enough confusion is created, the use of airborne assets might be appropriate, so you could insert troops by helicopter later on, for example.

As for the NTW-20 snipers, chances are any real operation would have a team of snipers watching the scene 24/7, so they would be able to more or less immediately return accurate, punishing fire.

However, the biggest thing really is the cruise missile. Lacking super strength, they'd either have to disarm it or immediately flee the building. This is one part where having cyborgs really saves lives above all.

John_234 wrote:During the night, they'd probably have someone drill a hole in the wall to get a fiber optic cam in, find the blueprints to the building, use drones to scout stuff out.

Use thermal imaging and around-the-clock surveillance to pin down where people are, who the leaders are, etc. In the meanwhile, operatives run clearing drills in a replica of the interior.

They would wait as long as possible before starting an operation, for several reasons. You want to peacefully resolve the situation if possible. Otherwise, you want to tire them around since the terrorists have to pull guard duty and will grow anxious. A total blackout of the surrounding area and the appearance of no local assets would increase their paranoia. Or they might go full out psych warfare, launching smoke grenades every few hours, propaganda, etc. The press blackout is really important as Padania would doubtlessly have local assets feeding them news on the formations and composition of government troops.

The attack would happen at dusk, when people are naturally the most tired and unaware. Everyone would be kitted out with full kit, breaching charges, etc. Honestly, with some minor intel they'd see the AT rifles and the booby-trapped front door.

Snipers would find targets and take out as many as possible. So they'd have someone access the power supply and kill it. Flood the place with smoke and tear gas liberally to drive them out, or make them don bulky gas masks and such.

Because they know the front entrance is mined, they would probably have an EOD robot destroy it, or hit it with an armored vehicle. Ground and abseiling elements would need to attack simultaneously and decisively. Suppressed weapons, night vision, laser sights, thermal imaging would assist levying the fight. Ideally, most assets would attack from upper floors since the stairwells and such are certainly killing zones. If enough confusion is created, the use of airborne assets might be appropriate, so you could insert troops by helicopter later on, for example.

As for the NTW-20 snipers, chances are any real operation would have a team of snipers watching the scene 24/7, so they would be able to more or less immediately return accurate, punishing fire.

However, the biggest thing really is the cruise missile. Lacking super strength, they'd either have to disarm it or immediately flee the building. This is one part where having cyborgs really saves lives above all.

If they have thermal imaging of the palce and are monitoring it etcetera, wouldn't they wait untill they were changing the guard shift? That's just what I remember reading somewhere, that the bast time to attack is during the guard change so that you catch them while they're unprepared or something like that, I dunno.

Also, they way you put that makes it seem like Jean really screwed the pooch on that one.



Okay, back to the GsG/Raibow thing. I'll just appologise in advance because I've only got Rainbow Six: Veagus 2 to go by.

Now, I think they would most likely disarm the missile, because if things go down a little like it did for the cyborgs, then the missile wouldn't have long to go (That's why Bea threw it out the window in the first place), so they wouldn't have much choice but to dissarm it.

The implication I got is that they were just dug in with no real pattern of guard shifts.

I wouldn't quite jump to that conclusion. While Jean did seem to be the ground commander he probably didn't cook up this crazy-ass operation himself. He takes his orders from a higher up like everyone else. Again, I go back to blaming Aida

John_234 wrote:The implication I got is that they were just dug in with no real pattern of guard shifts.

I wouldn't quite jump to that conclusion. While Jean did seem to be the ground commander he probably didn't cook up this crazy-ass operation himself. He takes his orders from a higher up like everyone else. Again, I go back to blaming Aida

So it was Aida who screwed the pooch!

Seriously though, when the Agency took them on, the had just dug in, yes, but I was referring to your plan with the Rainbow opperatives. I just got the feeling that there was maybe a couple of days (since there was a mock up of the tower made for them to run drills on, I mean, that'd take a little time, they wouldn't just have them lying around) time betwen noticing the terrorists and actually assaulting the tower. And having to wait that long, I figure they would have set up some sort of guard shift, but that's just me.

While the SAS used an exact replica of the Iranian Embassy rooms during "Operation Nimrod" people often have to make do with less. I mean, if you got desperate you could make a "glass house" or just configure a shoothouse by moving some walls.

The thing about a guard shift is you use it when you actually have people in reserve who are rested to relieve people, like a military outpost with a base. In this situation, everyone has a job to do and is dug in, so a regular guard cycle doesn't seem likely.

John_234 wrote:While the SAS used an exact replica of the Iranian Embassy rooms during "Operation Nimrod" people often have to make do with less. I mean, if you got desperate you could make a "glass house" or just configure a shoothouse by moving some walls.

The thing about a guard shift is you use it when you actually have people in reserve who are rested to relieve people, like a military outpost with a base. In this situation, everyone has a job to do and is dug in, so a regular guard cycle doesn't seem likely.

Ah, I see. That makes sense.