AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

The recent talk-about's in "The Coven" section of the Forums got me to thinking. What sort of aircraft can be purchased and maintained by section 2, either as privately, state, or section owned aircraft.

If Privately owned its probably gonna be second hand, while state or section owned would be new gear.

Thoughts on the matter?

As a government agency, the SWA should have access to any aircraft in the Italian military's inventory. I've used the Air Force's A319-100 and C-130-30, as well as the Army's CH-47C Plus.

Within my OC universe, the Agency also has access to Michele's private plane - a Piaggio P.180 Avanti.

Within MP5's OC universe, there is the Warhawk PMC's inventory.

recon drones

The problem with a big fleet of aircraft is that it's hard to keep them a secret. Eyebrows are going to be raised if the Social Welfare Agency is constantly ordering parts for an AC-130 gunship.

In my stories I've given them a handful of ragged out old Bell AB212 Hueys and a Hermes 450A unmanned aerial drone. Anything else must be borrowed from other Italian govenment agencies.

they are supposed to be a medical research program so a few air ambulances wouldn't be noticed

Nice call Aniwell, those would blend in perfefctly with the agency's outward appearance

And those 'air ambulances', of course, have hidden door guns and Hellfire missiles.

Hellfires would be excessive and inefficient... rocket pods, OTOH...

About the most I can see the SWA operating as far as aircraft would be a few small helicopters with civilian markings. Even that's pushing it a bit though. Helicopters aren't cheap to operate and they require trained personnel to fly and maintain. A small helicopter also wouldn't have much range, which could be an issue if trying to fly to locations far from headquarters. On the other hand having a heli with civilian rather than police or military markings could be a big advantage for some operations.

I guess the SWA's own air assets are something I haven't really thought much on, for the very simple fact that they don't have much bearing on my own stories. However, I've always sort of figured that any air assets (or any more specialised vehicles) would be loaned from the Carabinieri, probably via one of the GIS units they work closely with... so for example, if they needed a helicopter, one comes from the Carabinieri and it's assigned to something, say, Major Sales (or anyone cleared to know about the SWA) is doing. He then tasks it to work with whatever the SWA needs. Sounds a bit roundabout, but once the system's in place I think they could call up an asset fairly quickly if need be.

The upside of that is that maintinence and operation of the aircraft is charged to ligitimate unit, one with a foot either side fo the black operations line and can therefore be reimbursed under the table. It also saves the SWA needing to find somewhere to house the things or carry the extra staff to operate them. That way it can get on with it major role of running a cyborg program.

That would make more sense, especially considering the budgetary constraints... it's easier to justify your budget if you don't have a large line-item on there for the bean counters to say "Do you REALLY need this?" (As someone who is routinely denied stuff due to budgetary constraints - like new body armor that actually FITS - I can understand this...)

Officer_Charon wrote:That would make more sense, especially considering the budgetary constraints... it's easier to justify your budget if you don't have a large line-item on there for the bean counters to say "Do you REALLY need this?" (As someone who is routinely denied stuff due to budgetary constraints - like new body armor that actually FITS - I can understand this...)

Pretty much. In the great grand scheme of things, the SWA is a small organisation (one which chews up a huge amount of funds), and it's actual combat arm is even smaller. Add to that the types of operations it seems to undertake most of the time and I can't really see it being able to justify having something like a helicopter assigned to it full time.

The major reason I could see for them needing a helicopter would be to medevac an injured cyborg back to Rome. However, even in that case I don't think it would be particularly difficult to scramble an appropriately cleared GIS or Carabinieri crew, or, if a major operation were taking place, even have one quietly on standby.

What I could see the SWA having would be one or two small UAVs, which are significantly cheaper to run.

Hey, remember the villa mission? They had choppers for that one.

Nachtsider wrote:Hey, remember the villa mission? They had choppers for that one.

They did, but I don't think it was ever specified where they came from. I didn't say they'd never use the things, just that I don't think they could justify having them permanently assigned to the organisation... far easier just to essentially lease them off the GIS, complete with crews, when needed.

Nachtsider wrote:Hey, remember the villa mission? They had choppers for that one.

The Italian government is thick with Agusta-Bell AB 212s and 412s.

Do they have the facilities for light manned aircraft?. I see them using some low cost drones and similar. The other alternative to choppers would be some light aircraft.

But as usual these would only be useful as recon and scouting, eyes in the skies essentially. The choppers are where its at if they need insertion. Be too farfetched to see them paradropping from fixed-wing craft.

I agree with Alfitsi on this one. The SWA would just requisition whatever they needed from the Carabinieri or GIS, no need to have nosy investigators like Marco's former gal wondering why they need black hawk parts, though they would proabably hide that the same way they hide all the ammunition and guns they order.

Im liking this one, STOL capability from... well anything that resembles an airfield, be it a gravel trap, dirt road... a forest trail...

VERY SLOW, long loiter time, perfect for recon, and is quiet.

The very interesting thing about it is, although the plane itself weighs slightly less than 3 tons, Its useful load that it can carry is more than 4 tons.

So if need be armed... You can mount more stuff on it than a GR.7 Harrier II.

Oh and its cheap.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:...no need to have nosy investigators like Marco's former gal wondering why they need black hawk parts, though they would proabably hide that the same way they hide all the ammunition and guns they order.

Blackhawk parts tend to be a bit more specialised than firearms and ammo though (and rarer for that matter) As to aquiring the latter, for the basic stuff the SWA could probably swipe it off the top of someone else's order or hide it within another organisation's aquisitions.

-ACHTUNG- wrote:Do they have the facilities for light manned aircraft?. The other alternative to choppers
would be some light aircraft.

Similar argument to the helicopters here I think to be honest: I really doubt the SWA's need for aircraft (at least as the story and operations stand in canon) is great enough to make it worth their while buying, crewing, maintaining and running the things themselves. To put it another way: the SWA is one small, but particularly expensive, cog in the Italian anti-terrorist machine, it has a neiche to fill, and blowing stuff up from the air, to me, isn't it. That's what the armed forces are for.

Alfisti wrote:

-ACHTUNG- wrote:Do they have the facilities for light manned aircraft?. The other alternative to choppers would be some light aircraft.

the SWA is one small, but particularly expensive, cog in the Italian anti-terrorist machine, it has a neiche to fill, and blowing stuff up from the air, to me, isn't it. That's what the armed forces are for.

Poor girls, turned into cyborgs, forced to kill people, never able to have normal lives... AND not being alowed to blow stuff up? they miss out on all the fun stuff .

Okay... One thing I failed to notice when I posted the pic of that plane is the fact that it looks REALLY... unpleasant... yes UGLY.

Hey if they need not blow stuff from the air doesnt mean they cant use them for observation and recon. And that particular plane can stay in the air for 10 hours or so. Being an agricultural aircraft means it can carry the fuel in the tanks where the chemical stuff are supposed to be.

Part of the reason I have Warhawk around is because I wanted to create another sort of niche fratello, one suited to long-range operations and going into places the SWA normally has delays or a hard time reaching by normal means (hence Kyo and Ryo's qualifications for Parachute insertion). In addition, I came up with the idea for Warhawk due to the fact that PMCs are kind of a hot new thing in recent years, and governments do outsource certain services to them. As to Warhawk's involvement in the world of GsG, it is sort of a case of shifting some of the workload of their air forces to a private company that works for a fixed amount in a given period of time with similar capabilities that would cost more and/or take longer to implement if the military had to do it themselves. And given the potential for corruption amongst some of its personnel, a private company with loyalty to the contract is less likely to do something supporting the Five Republics on the sly, so long as the pay is right. Add the sympathy Jennifer has for the rest of the murder-midgets and their physically-elder brothers and sisters, and it works out even better for the Italian government, because they can talk her into taking a bit more off of the price she throws at them (or at least, attempt to).

That aside, I also figured that a PMC providing air assets usable by the SWA will cut through red tape a little more, have less visible, harder to access paperwork (handled primarily by a foreign company), and because counter-insurgency aircraft is one of the services requested by the Italian government, they have ready access to close air support if and when the need arises, playing with the idea that the Italian government's conflict with the Five Republics has escalated beyond a metaphorical kicking of each other's shins under the table.

Regarding the Hellfire missiles... I dont think there would be a need for that, unless the Five Reps suddenly purchase some Tanks, might be useful against boats.

Another reason aircraft would prove useful in is in situations when the bad guy gets away coz he has a private jet/Heli.

-ACHTUNG- wrote:Okay... One thing I failed to notice when I posted the pic of that plane is the fact that it looks REALLY... unpleasant... yes UGLY.

You know why that's ugly? Because in civilian life, that was a crop duster.

In my view, in canon, the SWA has no Aircraft. Think about it - the handlers use their own cars to get to missions, how can they have aircraft? Any aircraft and their staff used was borrowed from the military.

As for fanfiction, Anything goes. Kisk's OCs have their planes, my OCs have theirs but they have not been used yet. Other OCs having planes, depends on them.

ElfenMagix wrote:In my view, in canon, the SWA has no Aircraft. Think about it - the handlers use their own cars to get to missions, how can they have aircraft? Any aircraft and their staff used was borrowed from the military.

As for fanfiction, Anything goes. Kisk's OCs have their planes, my OCs have theirs but they have not been used yet. Other OCs having planes, depends on them.

Sounds like you agree with me and Alfitsi.
"Other OCs having planes..." Imma giving mine a B-2 and a Concord now .
Sorry for that silliness, I'll be quiet now .

-ACHTUNG- wrote:Hey if they need not blow stuff from the air doesnt mean they cant use them for observation and recon. And that particular plane can stay in the air for 10 hours or so. Being an agricultural aircraft means it can carry the fuel in the tanks where the chemical stuff are supposed to be.

Again though; why not just deploy a UAV? It's cheaper, doesn't have the limiting factor of needing a pilot (whom is generally soft and squishy and requires things like feeding, toilet breaks and rest) less likely to be spotted whilst loitering, quieter... I mean, if I was a terrorist and had some plane hanging around, I'd immediately be on high alert.

As to chasing an escaping badguy: you're assuming the plane or helicopter will be in a position to intercept, fueled up and with its pilot on cockpit standby... and if you've gone to those lenghts then that's plenty of time to have arranged somebody else to do it.

Again, I come back to the original argument: I just can't see the probability or frequency of use for the canon (as Elfen said: in fanfiction, anything goes) SWA as being high enough to warrant owning its own aircraft. Remember: actually buying the things is the CHEAP part.

Alfisti wrote:actually buying the things is the CHEAP part.

Damn! I wanted to own a chopper one day . Less trafic you see. I'm not joking, I do actually want to own a heli.

Secondly, I see a lot of reiterating going on here. Facinating.

Alfitsi wrote:...if I was a terrorist and had some plane hanging around, I'd immediately be on high alert...

Unless an airport or base was nearby, that would be a valid reason for a heli to be there and wouldn't raise too much suspicion if any.

Alfitsi wrote:As to chasing an escaping badguy: you're assuming the plane or
helicopter will be in a position to intercept, fueled up and with its
pilot on cockpit standby... and if you've gone to those lenghts then
that's plenty of time to have arranged somebody else to do it.

(Before I start, anything I sat you might want to check with someone that knows about this stuff for I am recalling it from Tom Clancey's Patriot Games. I know it's just fiction, but he seems to be fairly factual in his books. (I think)) A SWAT team in America only needs fifteen minutes to be in the air, and they would be put on alert as soon as something was up, and as long as a cyborg is able to remain on the targets tail for long enough, the heli would be able to provide assistance. (I'm working under the assumption that the cyborg is unable to apprehend or eliminate the target)

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:

Alfitsi wrote:...if I was a terrorist and had some plane hanging around, I'd immediately be on high alert...

Unless an airport or base was nearby, that would be a valid reason for a heli to be there and wouldn't raise too much suspicion if any.

Reason for being in the area yes, reason for loitering, not so much. My old house was under the approach to Amberley Air Force Base, and near one of the civillian training areas. We also used to have a real estate agent who liked to do wingovers in a Harvard above properties he was selling... but that's a different story. Thing is: it doesn't take much to cotton on that it's the same aircraft.

Alfitsi wrote:A SWAT team in America only needs fifteen minutes to be in the air, and they would be put on alert as soon as something was up, and as long as a cyborg is able to remain on the targets tail for long enough, the heli would be able to provide assistance. (I'm working under the assumption that the cyborg is unable to apprehend or eliminate the target)

Again, this is what there's a GIS and Caribinieri for. More to the point, they have more assets in more places, which means they're more likely to be able to get something in the air in a useful position.

Alfisti wrote:

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:

Alfitsi wrote:...if I was a terrorist and had some plane hanging around, I'd immediately be on high alert...

Unless an airport or base was nearby, that would be a valid reason for a heli to be there and wouldn't raise too much suspicion if any.

Reason for being in the area yes, reason for loitering, not so much. My old house was under the approach to Amberley Air Force Base, and near one of the civillian training areas. We also used to have a real estate agent who liked to do wingovers in a Harvard above properties he was selling... but that's a different story. Thing is: it doesn't take much to cotton on that it's the same aircraft.

Could be a situation like Die Hard 2. Okay, maybe not exactly like that, but there's some sort of hold up and the aircraft cannot land, thus have to fly around for a bit.
Am I the only person that feels I may be grasping at straws here?

If you really want to have on in your OC universe, knock yourself out.

But within the "canon universe" that Yu Aida has presented to date, the SWA owning their own manned air assets seems both unlikely and unnecessary.

Are you so sure about that? I mean, Padania has its own private submarine... I'm sure that the SWA touts a vessel which is a plush and upmarket Adriatic cruise ship by day but whose superstructure can fold away to reveal a STOL runway complete with arrestor cables and harnesses for the Agency Fast Jet Squadron, whose inventory includes F-22s, Mig-29s, a prototype Chengdu J-20 and a Me262A with plenty of spare parts. Highway to the Danger Zoooooooooooooonnnneeee!

Robert Frazer wrote:Are you so sure about that? I mean, Padania has its own private submarine...

I expect Cristiano hired that boat - he's certainly rich enough. If we could identify the model from the sail, we could see who operates the types and then find the most corruptible operator.

Robert Frazer wrote:Are you so sure about that? I mean, Padania has its own private submarine... I'm sure that the SWA touts a vessel which is a plush and upmarket Adriatic cruise ship by day but whose superstructure can fold away to reveal a STOL runway complete with arrestor cables and harnesses for the Agency Fast Jet Squadron, whose inventory includes F-22s, Mig-29s, a prototype Chengdu J-20 and a Me262A with plenty of spare parts. Highway to the Danger Zoooooooooooooonnnneeee!

Michele Pagani is secretly Tony Stark.

MP5 wrote:

Robert Frazer wrote:Are you so sure about that? I mean, Padania has its own private submarine... I'm sure that the SWA touts a vessel which is a plush and upmarket Adriatic cruise ship by day but whose superstructure can fold away to reveal a STOL runway complete with arrestor cables and harnesses for the Agency Fast Jet Squadron, whose inventory includes F-22s, Mig-29s, a prototype Chengdu J-20 and a Me262A with plenty of spare parts. Highway to the Danger Zoooooooooooooonnnneeee!

Michele Pagani is secretly Tony Stark.

LOL



So kisk when will Michele get his armor

Robert Frazer wrote:Are you so sure about that? I mean, Padania has its own private submarine... I'm sure that the SWA touts a vessel which is a plush and upmarket Adriatic cruise ship by day but whose superstructure can fold away to reveal a STOL runway complete with arrestor cables and harnesses for the Agency Fast Jet Squadron, whose inventory includes F-22s, Mig-29s, a prototype Chengdu J-20 and a Me262A with plenty of spare parts. Highway to the Danger Zoooooooooooooonnnneeee!

I can see this happening... It would be awsome .

crazyidiot78 wrote:

MP5 wrote:

Robert Frazer wrote:Are you so sure about that? I mean, Padania has its own private submarine... I'm sure that the SWA touts a vessel which is a plush and upmarket Adriatic cruise ship by day but whose superstructure can fold away to reveal a STOL runway complete with arrestor cables and harnesses for the Agency Fast Jet Squadron, whose inventory includes F-22s, Mig-29s, a prototype Chengdu J-20 and a Me262A with plenty of spare parts. Highway to the Danger Zoooooooooooooonnnneeee!

Michele Pagani is secretly Tony Stark.

LOL



So kisk when will Michele get his armor

I think you hit on something. I can see the Agency playing with some force multipliers, exo-skeletons and the like for both handler and cyborg....

So I guess yu will now have gunslinger crisis or something

One has to remember that in writing fanfiction, you have to take the negatives and the lacking with the positive and the abundance. Face it, Outside of Facfiction, and out side of borrowing from the military, the SWA has no planes. Hell, they got no cars as their own handlers have to drive their own to missions!

@crazyidiot: Oh, you MAGNIFICENT bastard! *golfclap*

Officer_Charon wrote:@crazyidiot: Oh, you MAGNIFICENT bastard! *golfclap*

That would be one hell of a cross over!

Well, helicopters aren't illegal. Just expensive - a utility chopper easily breaks the million mark. Plus, not only is the chopper expensive, but the specialist training for pilots and anybody who works out of a chopper. Since the SWA is mostly counter-terrorist, I wouldn't really see a need for stuff past heavy cargo turboprops and utility choppers, which are simple enough to get.

Also, I forget who linked this thing to me, but I imagine an air-dropped package with one or two of these would be an interesting extraction:



It's really an autogyro with a drive mechanism more than a flying car, but the super-small package is intriguing. You could probably modify it to handle unpaved roads a little better and ride your way to an open spot for takeoff.

You know, in Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six, there was this chopper that got shipped around with the Rainbow Teams. Granted, this was also an operation that spent most of its budget on training and that chopper because the commandoes were normal humans, but still.

On a separate note: It's not impossible to just rent out a hanger in a nearby airstrip. Granted, I don't know how Italy does this, but there are a multitude of municipal airstrips lying around in the US. You just pay somebody a sum every month and store your plane. I imagine a few extra hundred Euros would get the hanger operators to ignore that fact that Section 2 is using said hanger. You could wheel your plane in and shut the door while the personnel, who you'd have replaced with your own people or have been liberally bribed, took care of maintenance and fuel. You'd just need to hire a pilot and several tandem harnesses for HALO jumps or something.

And on the crazy side: Do you think a cyborg could survive re-entry in a MIRV warhead? Remove the nuke bits, stuff Henrietta and Rico into two of the "bomblets", program and fire. This seems like a good idea, seeing as you would be able to take complete advantage of enemy shock at a nuke appearing in their living room (assuming android survival).

A physics package is much smaller than a cyborg.

Really? Damn. What if it's just a normal ICBM? Could you take out the explosive bits and shove one of the smaller ones in?

Image appears to indicate possibility.



See, if we replace the payloads section, we could probably Henrietta in there. She's pretty short and scrawny and the missile is 2.11 meters in diameter.

El_Conservatore wrote:
See, if we replace the payloads section, we could probably Henrietta in there. She's pretty short and scrawny and the missile is 2.11 meters in diameter.

Henrietta: But that will wrinkle the new outfit Giuse bought me! Do I have to?!

Professor Voodoo wrote:

El_Conservatore wrote:
See, if we replace the payloads section, we could probably Henrietta in there. She's pretty short and scrawny and the missile is 2.11 meters in diameter.

Henrietta: But that will wrinkle the new outfit Giuse bought me! Do I have to?!

Mercedes: If I could swap with you, I would. But, you know, being a second generation cyboreg and all... *shoves Henrietta in and closes the hatch* quick, do it now before she gets out!

Conservatore: No no, it'll be fine. See, we thought of that and instead we rigged up this special rack here. It's heat resistant and stuff so your clothes can survive re-entry. We strap you in upside down and your outfit pops out on rails. You just have to raise your arms after you land, the mechanism will give you your outfit and your P90. Overall, it shouldn't be too bad.

And besides, you're being shot into a Padania Safehouse from a BALLISTIC MISSILE. THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER.

Although if you really don't want, I suppose I could get Marisa....

---

What do you think, Voodoo? Could Marisa fit in there?

El_Conservatore wrote:

And besides, you're being shot into a Padania Safehouse from a BALLISTIC MISSILE. THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER.

Mercedes: I want to do that!