I'd like to talk about Petrushka

Though I find that Triela is one of my favourite characters in the series,
Petrushka speaks to me more due to the fact that she is a bit older and much more like us in her emotions and choices in what her handler just is for her. IT's so interesting to me that cast against Jean and Jose, Sandro is unabatedly pledging his allegiance to Petra, just lie she is for him. The power of that moves me, in a very significant way.

Though, I would like to hear some more theories. Is Sandro playing her excellently? After all Petrushka, is just a name for a type of marionette puppet from Russia. I also find it interesting that Petra's personality is so different from her past life as Elizabeta Baranovskaya, and I wonder what would happen if she regained some of her memory.

I personally think, that Sandro is not playing her, she's too close to what he's always wanted. Also I worry about what would happen if Petra regained her memory, I think she would suddenly not be abel to make that easy choice for Sandro.
What do you think?

I think that his background in espionage means that he would view Petra as a different kind of tool to the way the police and military handlers view their cyborgs. I imagine he'll be more interested in her eyes, ears, sense of smell and those facets of her construction than in her ability to put a round through someone's eye at a mile and a half with a Cheytac Intervention.

He also seems (and I'm not done reading all the publicly translated volumes yet so bear with me if this is already revealed) to be interested in the appearance of her chassis, as it were. Is this just a reaction to her conditioned devotion? Is it a play or a ploy against her or the SWA? Is it a defensive reaction to women in general?

Don't get me wrong - he's a good character and a welcome change to the less subtle handlers. I still wonder if he's just as "broken" as some of them are?

Personally, I think he has actually fallen for her, but does not know where the boundaries can or should be. Sandro originally fell hard for Rossana and it fell through, making him bitter and skeptical towards relationships, on top of the 'just business' view he had of it to begin with because of the roles he had to play. It was the same with Rossana.

Now, look at what it took for Rossana to change: She had a child, and thus had to reevaluate her view of love. Do you really believe she had thought she could drop everything for a child before it happened to her?

Sandro was the same way after Rossana left the picture. Love was something foreign, so it had no connection to physical love. It's something to avoid trusting because it hurts like hell and leaves you hanging.

But then Petra comes along... She becomes an open vessel for him to pour his experience into, and through that he begins to evaluate himself again. Love is still foreign, but he is steadily becoming attached to Petra through her personality and openness, until he is finally faced with the prospect of losing her via the cyborg life-span.

Faced with another set of pained feelings, he chooses to make something of it rather than let it waste away like before. He loves her, he's not sure how to proceed safely, and thus he's taking it slow.

At least, that's how I view it all.

This has been discussed a lot. For me in a nutshell...

She's only there for fan service. She should not be here. I want her to jump off a cliff and die.

Triela wrote:For me in a nutshell...

She's only there for fan service.

And yet Triela remains, by far, the favorite of male GSG fans, so if that is why Yu created her, he really fracked it up.

maverick375 wrote:
But then Petra comes along... She becomes an open vessel for him to pour his experience into, and through that he begins to evaluate himself again.

This was, of course, what John Doe & Christiano found when they began to train Pinocchio. But a few months of espionage training as a substitute for years of care and attention? Not convinced...

On the other hand I do wonder if, just for an instant, he hoped Rossano's daughter really was his as she (rather cruelly) joked with him. I think that could make him resent Petra maybe since she really couldn't ever be his daughter but then I think he's not looking for a daughter although he might end up with one whether he wants her or not.

But he'd say he's not looking for any kind of relationship apart from a professional one.

I don't think Alessandro is looking for a daughter, but neither do I think he is looking for a sex toy. The man is a professional gigolo, people. He doesn't need Petra to get laid. If anything, she's a hindrance to his philandering.

Kiskaloo wrote:

Triela wrote:For me in a nutshell...

She's only there for fan service.

And yet Triela remains, by far, the favorite of male GSG fans, so if that is why Yu created her, he really fracked it up.

in the west that may be true, but how about in Japan ? that is the market its written for and i doubt if Yu could care less about the opinions of those outside Japan

Kiskaloo wrote:I don't think Alessandro is looking for a daughter, but neither do I think he is looking for a sex toy. The man is a professional gigolo, people. He doesn't need Petra to get laid. If anything, she's a hindrance to his philandering.

He's not a professional gigolo - it's simply a tool of his trade (as it were) Look I'm really sorry but double-entendres are unavoidable when discussing 'Sandro. I won't be doing it on purpose but I will just find I've slipped one in or someone will ask something and I'll find that in my answer I've given them one. I apologise in advance.

Although, if Petra is a hindrance to his philandering, as you say, well, if life gives you lemons . . .

On the other hand, if lemons give you life you've committed a serious crime in Lemonland.

Awinnell wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:

Triela wrote:For me in a nutshell...

She's only there for fan service.

And yet Triela remains, by far, the favorite of male GSG fans, so if that is why Yu created her, he really fracked it up.

in the west that may be true, but how about in Japan ? that is the market its written for and i doubt if Yu could care less about the opinions of those outside Japan

I'm not an expert on Japanese otaku culture, but I imagine each girl has her own fanbase based on her age, look and dress.

And really, if his idea was to create a new generation of older "sexy" girls to attract fans, why has he done absolutely nothing with "Ilaria", "Giada" and "Alba"? In fact, when he does bother to draw them, he seems to pick t-shirts and jeans and draws them from a distance.

IMO, Petrushka mirrors Alessandro. When he's playing the "pimp", she's playing the "ho". When he's playing the urban professional, so is she. When he's the "government agent" (guarding the prosecutor), so is she. She takes her fashion and style hints from him and they're tailored to the mission at hand.

My love for Triela has a simple reason. In the words of Spike Spiegel: "I love a women who can kick my ass."

As for the character of Petrushka; I love her. She is a welcome change and a fresh start for the series.

Who I don't like is Sandro who seems to be a hound in every way. Also it seems as if he tends to be living in the past as he obviously modelled Petrushka after Rosanna.

Kind of how recently divorced couples typically happen to go after younger, hotter versions of their spouses. Sometimes even as a means of petty revenge.

Kiskaloo wrote:I don't think Alessandro is looking for a daughter, but neither do I think he is looking for a sex toy. The man is a professional gigolo, people. He doesn't need Petra to get laid. If anything, she's a hindrance to his philandering.

When she becomes a hinderance to his activity, she becomes the outlet to that activity or any ramifications thereof.

Look- the Petra character, despite some lacking in character, is not the problem for me. Its Alessandro that is the issue. If given to another handler like Jean, Jose, Hillshire, Marco, Bernardo, or Ernesto; she would be a cyborg to be reckoned with. But Alessandro- if he's not copping a feel off her during missions, then what is he doing? Infiltration? Really... Think about it.

When it came time for Yu to "kill off" Angelica I'm glad he did not replace her with an identical character. Petrushka is significantly different from all of the other cyborgs, and allows Yu to follow plot lines that he could not with the other girls.

Note that in the short time she's been part of the cast Petra has developed more than Henrietta, Rico & Angelica have during the whole series. Even the little bit of charcter evolution we're finally seeing from Claes was facilitated by Petra's arrival.

Not much to a little girl character if you need to have one so detailed. The First Gen just explains what they are and what they do, along with the issues and problems of their missions and their fratello relationship. This built up their characters and the story at the same time. Petra- was a dancer, and if you know dancers- dont feel any pity for Elizabetta. In getting Petra from Elizabetta, though sad and ironic it was, having 'Sandro as her handler was the wasabi on the cake.

Though there is no sex portrayed on this version of GsG, there was a lot of it in Yu's doujinshis and previous works of Bittersweet Fools and Pre 1999 GsG. Having said this- in his previous works of GsG (pre 1999), the character of Petra (who looks a lot like Claes now) was being active with her handler though she was a pre-teen girl in that serious.

Maybe Yu is toning it down for this version of GsG, but he hints it, though subtle it is. With Petra, there is only hints of 'what might have happened' along with 'what being done' to her. She adds very little to the story though when she is in it with him, they take a very big part of the story itself.

When comparing 'love' with the other girls during the examination, Petra seemed to have had all the answers when she does not. This puts the other girls, especially Henrietta, to question what they have with their handlers. Like what that other 'second generation' cyborg said, 'if she says anything about her special relationship...'; in order to have a special relationship, means that her and 'Sandro have gone all the way on many and all occasions that present themselves to them. This does not build character, just the fact that they screw each other does not enhance their placement in the story.

When 'Sandro had to rescue Rosanna, there was very little Petra in it. It was "All Sandro, All the time." It did little for Petra while trying to boost the ratings for 'Sandro. It was a descent story line done badly. To me, it could have done better. Maybe it be government or mafia going after Rosanna- there would have been more attempts on her life than what was shown. And if it were government or mafia, such a chase would not have ended so easily either. Lets be real- such a mission would not have ended in a day, much less a week. And if the government was after her, then why was the government hiding her? Smells of cover up and conspiracies to me.

Triela wrote:This has been discussed a lot.

That it has. I'm not in the mood to launch into another hate filled attack on her like I usually do but...

Triela wrote:She's only there for fan service. She should not be here. I want her to jump off a cliff and die.

You pretty much summed up thoughts of her exactly here. Only with less profanity.

One thing that makes A&P different from the other fratelli is that that they do not have a barrier of separation between them as the other pairings do. Whether it's as "big brother" or "commanding officer", they all have a sense of difference and distance holding them apart; however much Triela may stare after Hilshire like a lovesick spaniel, he is still the master and she is still the servant. A&P, however, are much more equanimous in their relations - they are not so much a heirarchy as a team. The other fratelli have officers and soldiers - A&P are genuinely partners.

Robert Frazer wrote:The other fratelli have officers and soldiers - A&P however are genuinely partners.

And they are the more effective because of it, IMO.

Frankly, if not for them, I never would have created OCs.

boomer_gonz wrote:Who I don't like is Sandro who seems to be a hound in every way. Also it seems as if he tends to be living in the past as he obviously modelled Petrushka after Rosanna.

I'm not really sure about Sandro just yet. I mean I haven't really gotten a good impression from him yet. I don't know about his past either but if anything: Sandro didn't have anything to do with Petrushka's Modeling. What was that one guy's name again... Donaver? the bald one who was with Sandro at the start of his introduction when he was touring the hospitals? He was in charge of her modeling. Sandro didn't fill out a forum for how his Cyborg would have to look like. He specifictly said that he didn't care what the cyborg looked like as long as it wasn't a red head.

boomer_gonz wrote:Kind of how recently divorced couples typically happen to go after younger, hotter versions of their spouses. Sometimes even as a means of petty revenge.

Thats a strange concept to me. any experience there boomer?

Tommygunner70 wrote: What was that one guy's name again... Donaver? the bald one who was with Sandro at the start of his introduction when he was touring the hospitals?

Louis Duvalier...and he was far from bald. I think you're confusing him with Dr. Belisario.

Professor Voodoo wrote:

Tommygunner70 wrote: What was that one guy's name again... Donaver? the bald one who was with Sandro at the start of his introduction when he was touring the hospitals?

Louis Duvalier...and he was far from bald. I think you're confusing him with Dr. Belisario.

What can I say? Its been too long since I've read GSG.

Writing a "Brother" that isn't a father figure is probably exactly why Yu made him. Like him or hate him you are still talking about him and that means he successfully added a new dimension to the story and that is for the better.

I hate that Sandro gets a bad rap for the sex thing too because it seemed to me he was a little shocked and apalled at needing to have sex for his job. He overcomes that and is understandably a little changed by the fact. It only makes sense that he may not have the same level of detachment the other handlers can mantain. Let's face it: how many young men can you find with the moral fortitude to distance themselves from a totally devoted attractive female with all the working parts? Add to that the level of emotional situations and frankly I say he tries pretty darn hard to keep it professional (professional in his sense anyways).

While he may be a vile desecration of the sanctity of a GsG, I read to feel emotion and he inspires it. So, while shaking my fist in anger, I tip my hat to Sandro.

Tommygunner70 wrote:

Professor Voodoo wrote:

Tommygunner70 wrote: What was that one guy's name again... Donaver? the bald one who was with Sandro at the start of his introduction when he was touring the hospitals?

Louis Duvalier...and he was far from bald. I think you're confusing him with Dr. Belisario.

What can I say? Its been too long since I've read GSG.

Tommy, you were right the first time...
'Sandro was talking with Duvalier when doing his Easter Egg hunt, but later on with they were diagnosing Petra, he spoke with the bald one- Belisario...

I had the name wrong regardless though but yeah its the 'Easter Egg hunt' that I was referring too.

theprodigalson wrote:Writing a "Brother" that isn't a father figure is probably exactly why Yu made him. Like him or hate him you are still talking about him and that means he successfully added a new dimension to the story and that is for the better.

How so? the guy feels up on his cyborg when ever the moment hits him!

theprodigalson wrote:I hate that Sandro gets a bad rap for the sex thing too because it seemed to me he was a little shocked and apalled at needing to have sex for his job. He overcomes that and is understandably a little changed by the fact. It only makes sense that he may not have the same level of detachment the other handlers can mantain. Let's face it: how many young men can you find with the moral fortitude to distance themselves from a totally devoted attractive female with all the working parts? Add to that the level of emotional situations and frankly I say he tries pretty darn hard to keep it professional (professional in his sense anyways).

Under Rosanna's tutelage, he found it appalling at first. But then after years of working with her- he got used to it. More over- he found it necessary for getting the job done and decided to be as damn good at it as possible. There is no damn way he is going to infiltrate a group through the female end if he 'fucks' like a 13yr looking at a porn magazine. He needs to seduce as well as score as high as possible with the girl in order to infiltrate her group. Therefore- he's a manwhore, a gigalo; he would have sex with a chicken if the agency ordered him to. In short, as far as the job is concerned, he has no ethics or morals.

theprodigalson wrote:While he may be a vile desecration of the sanctity of a GsG, I read to feel emotion and he inspires it. So, while shaking my fist in anger, I tip my hat to Sandro.

Inspires what? Not to belittle you, everyone sees things differently. I stated my proof of points. Now state yours.

Robert Frazer wrote:One thing that makes A&P different from the other fratelli is that that they do not have a barrier of separation between them as the other pairings do.

Boy, you got that right. As a matter of fact, I doubt Sandro even uses a condom.

You know, there is all this talk about Sandro copping a feel at any opportunity, screwing her brains out whenever they're behind Jean's back, etc, but I'm hard pressed to find such examples in the manga, or even any direct implication of such.

Sure, during the prosecutor protection mission he feigned making out with her to avoid looking suspicious, but the only indication that even leads to the idea of his feeling her up is the shirt being pulled off of her shoulder, which is hardly damning evidence. His words after provide a clue, but are not very direct and could refer to his suddenly kissing her. The important thing I see in that series of frames is his eyes. They are not focused on her, or off somewhere, but on where he knows the target is, and that means he's not thinking about her at all.

If anything, I would say that his makeover of Triela stands to be more questionable than his actions with Petra, as he actually does cop a feel in the interests of getting a reaction from Hillshire.

Then there is the 'special relationship' description from Petra. She's hardly the only cyborg to consider her relationship to be special, and the descriptive modifier might only imply that she thinks she's the only one on almost equal terms with Sandro, as in she thinks he feels the same level of love for her.

Based solely on the information in the manga, I'm not convinced they're sexually active. In fact, it leads me to believe that he's avoiding it, as he does actually have feelings for her but is reluctant to open his heart to her. Most of the scenes where they are discussing their feelings end with Sandro looking away, which means he doesn't care (which is not the case as we've seen), or that he's uncomfortable because it hits too close to his heart.

Maybe I'm guilty of reading too far into his character, but certainly many in the anti-Sandro crowd here are looking waaaaay the hell too far in the opposite direction. Again, look at the character without the 'benefit' of the doujinshi as a reference, and you see that maybe he's not such a bad guy. He's just another guy who is locked into something he's not comfortable with, and is trying to make the best of it.

In Vol 10 he clearly kisses her after he finds her dancing and she falls down. Ok that's barely first base but it seems to be more than the other cyborgs have (except in some of the fanfics amirite )

maverick375 wrote:You know, there is all this talk about Sandro copping a feel at any opportunity, screwing her brains out whenever they're behind Jean's back, etc, but I'm hard pressed to find such examples in the manga, or even any direct implication of such.

I believe we have definitive evidence that they are or are not in a sexual relationship in Chapter 65 in the extra pages published in the tankobon, but since it's not been translated, only the Japanese know.

maverick375 wrote:You know, there is all this talk about Sandro copping a feel at any opportunity, screwing her brains out whenever they're behind Jean's back, etc, but I'm hard pressed to find such examples in the manga, or even any direct implication of such.

In V6, he's already inspecting her like a piece of meat. At near the end of V6 he's already testing her as to how far he can go with her in public. She feels very uncomfortable about it then, but gets used to it later on. Who knows what was done when she slept over at his place in his bed...

V7, He tries to teach her the ropes of being a close partner with her, though while in front of the SWA Handers, his persona changes very quickly and too perfect for professional, which Petra questions him about their relationship and her feelings to him. In V8, while protecting the prosecutor, Roberta, their assistance to help Triela is 'delayed'. Delayed because he was 'hiding' with her during an impromptu makeout session in his smart car with passers by passing by. Thats uncalled for!

V9, the so called make out season in the music room, which only shows a couple of frames of the beginning of their action, not what happened when they finished. Then one of the other cyborgs mentions about "If Petra mentions about her special relationship...", which in girl-talk means that they are screwing. V10 was Triela's Story, which had no Petra in it, and things felt normal as far as GsG is concerned. V11 and V12 is the current story line.

Danjo3 wrote:

Robert Frazer wrote:One thing that makes A&P different from the other fratelli is that that they do not have a barrier of separation between them as the other pairings do.

Boy, you got that right. As a matter of fact, I doubt Sandro even uses a condom.

Agreed!!

How so? the guy feels up on his cyborg when ever the moment hits him!

Poor word choice on my part. I said "Brother" in the fratello sense not the sibling sense when I should have just said handler. That aside, you still can't convince me he feels her up all the time. Maverick made the point I was going to make: one scene where he very convincingly pretends to be making out with his girlfriend does not a sexial deviant make.

Inspires what?

Just that he is different. Like Robert said his relationship is less soldier and commander and more partner and I like that. I see in them more potential for a decent love story. Triela and Hillshire never really did it for me.

Who knows what was done when she slept over at his place in his bed...

Well Hillshire and Triela stay in the same apartment so I bet they have done it. And when Henrietta and Jose stay at his villa I bet he dresses her up like Little Bo Peep and has her bake him cookies!

You can't make a point based off conjecture that the author didn't even imply.

Delayed because he was 'hiding' with her during an impromptu makeout session in his smart car with passers by passing by. Thats uncalled for!

That "passerby" was a Padania scout wasn't he? I would say that is called for. And if I recall, his disintrest afterwards very much confused and bothered Petra which I doubt would have happened if they had already gone further.

I’ve never been able to understand why some people feel A&P are so new and fresh. They’re not. For me (and this is only my opinion) I think Yu just threw Triela and Henrietta into a Cuisinart, set it on puree, and out jumped Petra. As it stands, they have very little relevance to the story. If you were to take away the sex and fan service aspects, you’d be left with a fratello that was about as interesting as a pair of bookends. Now I’m not knocking anyone who’s into that kind of stuff, (I’ve written some pretty risqué shit myself. ) but you really have to give the 1st generation girls credit for staying interesting and relevant without out having to resort to that.

I honestly believe that Aida used up all of his best ideas on the original girls and as a result, sex/fan service was the only thing he could think of to make A&P stand out from the crowd. Again, take those two elements away and what do you have?

Bupkis!

Let the flaming begin.

One thing we do get to see with Alessandro/Petrushka is the development of a fratello relationship from day one. The Series One girls early days as cyborgs are referred to, but we witness very little of that team-building played out.

Petra, despite being older than the other cyborg characters is still only 5 years senior to Henrietta & Rico. She's still a very innocent & naive character. Alessandro for his part comes into the story jaded and older than his years. Aside from Rossanna (who did not return his feelings) Rissi's never formed meaningful relationships with anyone...even his own parents. Now he's paired with a partner who craves a relationship like nothing else in her life, and it's beginning to effect him as well.

To be honest, I find his character more interesting than Giuseppe's constant angst, Jean's anger (okay, we get it already) Hillshire's struggle to live up to the expectations of some chick he knew for less than a month and Marco's paper-thin catharsis storyline.

Professor Voodoo wrote:To be honest, I find his character more interesting than Giuseppe's constant angst, Jean's anger (okay, we get it already) Hillshire's struggle to live up to the expectations of some chick he knew for less than a month and Marco's paper-thin catharsis storyline.

Problem is, if you were to take all of those traits away from all of those handlers, you’d have nothing left but a bunch of guy’s who were every bit a superficial as Sandro. Can you imagine what a drag that would be?

Of course, I guess there’d be some down right epic orgies.

"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

-Theoden, King of Rohan

Okay well now I'm caught up to speed with my reading and I wonder why 'Sandro suddenly cared to order Petra to kill people (Vol11 Ch64) - it seems the kind of face-on confrontation he normally avoids. Also, I think Petra is quite lucky she can float - I expect most of the cyborgs would sink like stones!

theprodigalson wrote:"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

-Theoden, King of Rohan

This argument started in the old forum almost as soon as Petra and Sandro were introduced, and it will probably go on until this forum goes extinct. No matter how long it lasts, I can guarantee you that no ones going to change their mind.

But hey, it does keep things interesting.

theprodigalson wrote:"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

-Theoden, King of Rohan

Petra hate it's reckless. It's justified.

Nice quote btw. ^_^

mistersaxon wrote:I expect most of the cyborgs would sink like stones!

They do float.

While Rico sank when she landed in the water after falling off the tower in Venice, I put that down to a mix of shock and not knowing how to swim. She's clearly treading water on her own once Jean returns her to the surface.

Okay well now I'm caught up to speed with my reading and I wonder why
'Sandro suddenly cared to order Petra to kill people (Vol11 Ch64) - it
seems the kind of face-on confrontation he normally avoids.

There is a time to think and a time to act. Sandro realizes the overwhelming tactical advantage that Dante has once he realizes where he was directing the action from. He also knows what kind of person Dante is. This is why he makes the comment on pg 80-4: "He read that far ahead.. This is a complete defeat."

You could argue that Sandro is caught up in the heat of the moment, but I don't think that is his character when it comes to action. What I see when I read it is Sandro acting aggressively (if foolishly) in an effort to push beyond Dante's expectations and possibly score anything towards a win, knowing that it's a million-to-one that it accomplishes anything but hoping for some luck.

An interesting question is whether Sandro has a more personal stake in taking out Dante that might force him to lose his cool.

Also, I
think Petra is quite lucky she can float - I expect most of the cyborgs
would sink like stones!

It's the breasts. Series two improvements includes flotation devices.

Kiskaloo wrote:

mistersaxon wrote:I expect most of the cyborgs would sink like stones!

They do float.

Apart from the one scene already refered to (ch 28; Rico sinks in Venice) I've seen no examples of a Type One canon cyborg even touching the water. I do tend to think a difficulty or complete inability to float is a trade-off of a Type 1's more robust build. Besides, for fiction purposes, it's just funnier if Rico can't swim, but keeps forgetting that fact.
Type Two Petrushka has no difficulty swimming in Chapter 64 when she pushes Alessandro overboard to avoid the mini-gun, but it's generally accepted that the Type 2 girls have lighter armor and less mass with respect to volume.

As for OC; Maverick devoted some time to this question in his ongoing Jamie-Michael story. As for my Marisa I noted (on the wiki) that her weight equals that of the amount of saltwater she displaces, making her neutrally buoyant in the ocean, and slightly negative (sinks) in fresh water. This does imply that she has weaker body armor than the others.

Henrietta and Rico do play in the beach in the second OAV. And promotional materials had them (and Triela) in bikinis next to a pool.

CFRP should be less dense than water so it might be enough to counteract their metal parts.

Within my OC universe, all the girls can at least float. Kara and Petra can swim, but I didn't investigate that with Claes or Angelica.

Regarding A&P engaging Dante in Chapter 64 - it's doubly interesting because it highlights that really they're the most peaceful fratello of the bunch. While Petrushka has given a few characters pretty hefty wallops in close combat, I don't think that she's actually scored a single on-panel kill.

I think that it's a situation that's arisen from circumstance more than actual authorial intent, though. Alessandro is a poor fighter (when Rossanna first introduces him to Public Security it's noticed that he has indifferent shooting skills), but I don't believe him to be especially 'peaceable' - for instance, when Petrushka raked another vehicle with her Spectre during the car chase in the Rossanna escape sequence, she certainly would have inflicted some casualties had the car not been armoured. A&P haven't been shown to kill anyone yet simply because their positions in stories haven't involved pitched battles yet, not because it reflects their characters in any way.

As for the floating issue: when he's inspecting Petrushka's body in the recovery room before she wakes up, Alessandro notes that she's only slightly heavier than a girl of her build would be expected to be. It seems that she's built light enough to be buoyant.

Kiskaloo wrote:Henrietta and Rico do play in the beach in the second OAV. And promotional materials had them (and Triela) in bikinis next to a pool.

Yes, but they only splashed around in the shallows, perhaps aware of their weakness. Jean & Giuse end the episode by joining them. With their handlers there to assist the girls could possibly venture into deeper water. My statement "even touching water" was too broad a term.

CFRP should be less dense than water so it might be enough to counteract their metal parts.

Hmmm, I hadn't considered CFRP armor. I had guessed that the cyborgs were protected by a broad ribcage with closed gaps, and a flexible (sub-cutaneous) kevlar blanket covering the abdomen. When Major Sales knees Triela in the gut she doesn't seem to be protected by any rigid barrier.

Robert Frazer wrote:While Petrushka has given a few characters pretty hefty wallops in close combat, I don't think that she's actually scored a single on-panel kill.

Agreed. Petrushka seems to be utilized as more of a "thinking" cyborg, trained for investigative work rather than heavy combat (damn, that statement is really going to rile up the A&P haters).

The rooftop scene in chapter 38 seems to imply a kill or two...perhaps there are a few missing pages that go into greater depth as to what happened on the balcony once Petra leaps over to aid Alessandro.

Professor Voodoo wrote:Hmmm, I hadn't considered CFRP armor. I had guessed that the cyborgs were protected by a broad ribcage with closed gaps, and a flexible (sub-cutaneous) kevlar blanket covering the abdomen. When Major Sales knees Triela in the gut she doesn't seem to be protected by any rigid barrier.

I imagine it's a mixture of CFRP plate around the chest and more flexible weave around the abdomen. The CFRP musculature itself could be the armoring. Triela takes 5.56 or 7.62 at point blank and while she knocks her on her ass and she feels it, she's still fully combat capable.

Kara took AP rounds in her belly in Under the Radar which is why they penetrated, but I imagine her armor level is not as robust.

OK... OCs aside... lets get a few things straight. P.V.D.; I'm surprised that you did not picked it up... So goes the count down...

Professor Voodoo wrote:One thing we do get to see with Alessandro/Petrushka is the development of a fratello relationship from day one. The Series One girls early days as cyborgs are referred to, but we witness very little of that team-building played out.

Petra, despite being older than the other cyborg characters is still only 5 years senior to Henrietta & Rico. She's still a very innocent & naive character. Alessandro for his part comes into the story jaded and older than his years. Aside from Rossanna (who did not return his feelings) Rissi's never formed meaningful relationships with anyone...even his own parents. Now he's paired with a partner who craves a relationship like nothing else in her life, and it's beginning to effect him as well.

1) There was team building with the first gen girls early in the series- but that was very subtle and thought taking to figure it out.

2) Petra naive? Really... No, she's may have been erased just a tad more than My Francesca, and thus knows jack shit about the world but She was a dancer before she became a cyborg. As a dancer- they crave to be the center of attention. They do anything to get that leading role- including sleeping with whomever they have to to get it. Elizabetta was no virgin when she got cyborgized, and as Petra- she sees 'Sandro as the one she need to please to get what attention she wants.

theprodigalson wrote:

Just that he is different. Like Robert said his relationship is less soldier and commander and more partner and I like that. I see in them more potential for a decent love story. Triela and Hillshire never really did it for me.

He's an infiltrator and a spy, with little morals or ethics as he would sleep and have sex with whomever he will to get the job done. This is worse than a being whore...

mistersaxon wrote:Okay well now I'm caught up to speed with my reading and I wonder why 'Sandro suddenly cared to order Petra to kill people (Vol11 Ch64) - it seems the kind of face-on confrontation he normally avoids. Also, I think Petra is quite lucky she can float - I expect most of the cyborgs would sink like stones!

Kiskaloo wrote:

mistersaxon wrote:I expect most of the cyborgs would sink like stones!

They do float.

While Rico sank when she landed in the water after falling off the tower in Venice, I put that down to a mix of shock and not knowing how to swim. She's clearly treading water on her own once Jean returns her to the surface.

Cyborgs sink. Period.
As a lifeguard and water safety specialist for many years, you can tread water and have your hand extended underwater to support the other person with ease. Rico was not treading water, she was being supported by Jean.

Professor Voodoo wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:

mistersaxon wrote:I expect most of the cyborgs would sink like stones!

They do float.

Apart from the one scene already refered to (ch 28; Rico sinks in Venice) I've seen no examples of a Type One canon cyborg even touching the water. I do tend to think a difficulty or complete inability to float is a trade-off of a Type 1's more robust build. Besides, for fiction purposes, it's just funnier if Rico can't swim, but keeps forgetting that fact.
Type Two Petrushka has no difficulty swimming in Chapter 64 when she pushes Alessandro overboard to avoid the mini-gun, but it's generally accepted that the Type 2 girls have lighter armor and less mass with respect to volume.

Remember Rico's pre cyborg history- 11 years of her life in a hopital bed, never seeing anything past outside her room, and her parents constantly argueing... Did she had time to put on a bikini or 1 piece and walk over to the Y and have a dip in their pool?!! Damn It! She never learned how to swim, let alone tread water!!!

Kiskaloo wrote:Within my OC universe, all the girls can at least float. Kara and Petra can swim, but I didn't investigate that with Claes or Angelica.

That goes against convention that at least with the First Gen Cyborgs- they sink.

I'm a little bit knowledgeable on the whole buoyancy deal.
So I have to ask Elfen, on what do you base your answer to the sink/float deal?

I mean, buoyancy is affected by a persons weight and how much water their body displaces. If the amount of water they displace is greater then their weight then they float. Vice versa they sink.

Throughout the series, there wasn't really anything that hinted towards a Cyborgs Weight. OK we may have seen glimpses of Angie's internal structure being Metal, but for all we know they might have used Titanium for it or reinforced aluminium. And by nature not every human can float on water to begin with. (Myself being a prime example.)

I do agree on your thought of Rico though. There is no way in hell that she could have ever learned how to swim. But I am pretty sure that a Cyborg would be able to learn how to swim when given the time.

For as far as OC's go: My own OC Thomas, who is an adult version of the First Generation Cyborgs, is able to swim. Heck he used to cliff dive when he was younger.

In my mind they swim, but only because you can't do a proper pool/beach scene without at least the 2nd gens able to float.

He's an infiltrator and a spy, with little morals or ethics as he would
sleep and have sex with whomever he will to get the job done. This is
worse than a being whore...

I disagree. It's not a question of morals. Certainly having someone of lesser moral integrity could help with such an infiltration (assuming it required sex or killing), but finding the least moral person available is not a benefit, it's a hindrance.

Someone lacking in morals is not trustworthy-period. You cannot depend on their honor or conviction to remain loyal to any degree and is therefore a liability. By the same token, they must morally and psychologically flexible to be able to do the job as required.

So what you have is a necessity for someone who has a fundamental set of core beliefs that they are rock-solid on, and also have the conviction that their duty requires actions that they might otherwise dislike.

As another example of a Sandro -like character, try Eda from Black Lagoon. Consider what type of personality she has in light of her actions largely being dictated by the necessity of the job. Her loyalty is to the CIA, and she is willing to do a lot of things to complete her job. Does that make her a whore and killer? Or is she playing the part of a whore and killer?

Elf, I think you're wrong when it comes to the characters of Sandro and Petra. They're not cute and cuddly like the first-gens, okay, I'll give you that. But I also think you're projecting a bit too much in regards to their natures.

Saying that you know for a fact that Elizabeta landed her spot in the academy on the casting couch shows a marked disrespect for her and real dancers as well. Is it possible that some people get into prestigious schools on their abilities, particularly someone who has been dancing since a very young age?

Sandro is a bit tougher to defend, but I have to point out that his character is one that is skilled at drawing out reactions of others in order to read them. He did it in Lorenzo's office with Jean, and with Jose and others at different times.

The key to his real personality is in his eyes, something I know for a fact that artists work hard to get just right to convey emotion and personality. He doesn't have the eyes of a cold, ruthless satyriasist. Does that mean he would never touch Petra? No, of course not. Is he not a man with an enormous level of pressure leveled on him?

Again, it's my own interpretation, but I see a reluctance in his actions towards Petra at first, and it's only on the realization of her short life-span that he chooses to get closer, knowing that he could not waste time they don't have. He's a lonely person, he always has been, and he is invariably attracted to people similar to himself.