Something for Petra and the older girls...

MadHatChemist wrote:The agency is clearly moving away from having such a tight bond between cyborg and handler. Though ironically enough the smaller and more targeted level of conditioning could mean that the agency could use the cyborgs having sex with their fratello as a method of controlling the fratello!

It might be why Dr. Belessario is interested in seeing how the "relationship" between Alessandro and Petrushka plays out.

Danjo3 wrote:I’ll admit I don’t like Petra, but there’s a small part of me that feels sorry for her plight. Sando is the very definition of bastard. But I guess it could’ve been worse - she could have got Lauro.

Honestly, both likely would have been better off. Petrushka would be unlikely to develop strong feelings on her own for him, so there would not be the risk of "the error" (as the medical staff refer to it) that happened with Elsa.

Lauro might have been a bit more open to an older girl who didn't follow him around like a love-struck puppy, but if he was just as cold and impersonal with Petrushka, they still would likely have worked out as a fratello.

Petra is the very definition of love sick puppy. She fell faster and harder then Henrietta.

And I guess I don’t need to bring up the fact that Sandro is a pedophile.

Danjo3 wrote:Sandro is a pedophile.

that's a bit of a stretch, actually... there's a reason jailbait is called jailbait.

what 'Sandro is is a man with no ethical constraints when it comes to sex. He's an abuser of his authority.

...most of us (men) see a pretty young thing and get interested... then when it becomes apparent she's not just a young 20-something but rather is sixteen... we go and attempt to distance ourselves a bit.
This guy goes into a trainer/trainee, superior/subordinate, work relationship knowing full well that the girl is not only sixteen, but also brainwashed into hanging on his every word... and the second time she wants a kiss (and yes, her role in this was inevitable in the given situation), he gives it to her. Passionately. Makes one wonder if he even knows the meaning of self-control...

Remember - "fifteen will get ya twenty!"

That being said, the age of consent in Italy is 14, unless one of the participants has some kind of influence on the other. In that case, it is 16.

So Italian jurisprudence would take no issue with them being in a sexual relationship.

Which is one more reason I say that's not so much the issue. The issue is that she's his subordinate and trainee.

Dunno 'bout other military or paramilitary organizations, but pokin' your subordinates (especially if they're also trainees) in the US Army will (usually) get your authority taken away pretty quick.

That whole boss x subordinate relationshp leading to love happens often, most work places have rules in place to stop it but that aside it does happen.

Add to that they're together alot, somethings going to happen.

But I'm with kiskaloo on the topic of Petra and her love.

But just to double check, is your stance for Triela that it's started out as a form from the conditioning but is now real/natural/honest love that she feels?

Because looking at her little arc, I don't think it was a coincidence everything that happend in those chapters did so when she was basically off of the drugs. To me, and maybe this is just how I see it, her "forgetting" her meds was used to show that the feelings we see from her aren't effected by them and are her own real ones.

I guess old Sandro is in hog heaven living in a country were he can fuck 16 year olds.

I don't see how Triela's feelings can be interpreted as anything but genuine.

Based on the words and actions Yu has given her, Triela has always had feelings for Hillshire.

Hillshire seems to generally treat Triela as "hands off" as much as possible. He told Marco in Chapter 2 that he finds it works better if he doesn't "hold Triela's hand" during training. He also tells Giuse in Chapter 3 that he won't drug her any more then he has to, but because of that his control over her is not absolute. She can read him and use his own feelings and emotions against him.

The big change was, of course, the arc across Volume 10. Mario Bossi told Triela in Chapter 3 that he and Hillshire broke up a child trafficking ring, but in Volume 10 he expanded on that information to note that she was one of the children they saved - saved from torture and sexual abuse - and that one of his co-workers was killed doing it.

At that point, I think it all clicked together in her head and she realized why he treated her the way he did and what he sacrificed to not just save her, but to give her a new life in the SWA and to protect her.

Quite simply, she owes him her life - many times over. I expect the emotional impact of that combined with the feelings she was conditioned to have for him and those she has independently built up with him over the years they worked together as a fratello along with her belief that she will not live much longer to decide that she wants to spend what time she has left with him and make that time as meaningful as possible.

Did Petra have a crush on Sandro dating back from when they first met before she was operated?Could that meeting be influencing her feelings now even if she doesn't remember their meeting?

Just throwing those questions out there.

Doesn't help Sandro that the agency made Petra look like the younger version of the only woman he seemed to really care about:Rosana.

Totoum wrote:Did Petra have a crush on Sandro dating back from when they first met before she was operated?

I do not believe that Petrushka remembers anything before the operation (comments in the manga imply she has no memories), so if true, then she would not remember meeting Alessandro when she was Elizabeta Baranovskaya.

Also, all she really did was dance for him and do a twirl. I doubt she formed any real opinion of him, much less an attachment towards him.

Kiskaloo wrote:

Totoum wrote:Did Petra have a crush on Sandro dating back from when they first met before she was operated?

I do not believe that Petrushka remembers anything before the operation (comments in the manga imply she has no memories), so if true, then she would not remember meeting Alessandro when she was Elizabeta Baranovskaya.

I've never thought of the girls' reconditioning as a "memory wipe" so much as "format brain, install new OS". So the memories are still there, they're just not tagged anymore. The subconscious is a powerful thing, and we've got more storage space than we can use... hence Henrietta crying in her sleep, Angelica's old memories surfacing as she approached the end, and Triela's dream about Rachelle. I suppose puppy love could carry over as well.

That's true, we've seen often that the girls do keep a pat deep that they can't fully remember but they know is important in their subconscious.

My view of the conditioning isn't that of erasing/wiping either. It's more of a personality and data import. The old bits are stil in there but the original connection to their former lifes is what's been broken/changed. Then they just import in all this information about guns and how to fight and be loyal ontop of those bits.

It's like Petra, her love for dancing is what defind her original self, and that's still there, though she can't quite remember why it's so important and why it makes her feel good in the morning when she does her little warmup.

LoC978 wrote:I've never thought of the girls' reconditioning as a "memory wipe" so much as "format brain, install new OS". So the memories are still there, they're just not tagged anymore.

I've come to much the same conclusion. Belesario tells Jean at Lake Maggiore that it is easy to make the girls (Claes, in this case) forget things with some minor stimulation, but from what I remember in my biology and human anatomy classes, once imprinted into the brain, memories never really disappear. So I expect it's something like a selective chemical form of Alzheimer's that just "messes up the index table" so that the person can no longer remember where to access the memory, so it's effectively "gone".

At least that is how I played it out with Claes when she started to recover her memories in my last piece of fiction.

Here's my take on the whole 'memory issue'.

https://gunslinger-girl.forumotion.com/the-laboratory-f4/henrietta-say-i-m-lost-my-sweet-taste-t126-15.htm

didn't this thread start off about a bullet proof bra ?

LOLZ

Yes, yes it did.

We do tend to wander at times...

Kiskaloo wrote:We do tend to wander at times...

It’s pretty much standard operating procedure here.

Is that how it started, cuz I'll admit, I didn't start reading from page 1. *cough*

Awinnell wrote:didn't this thread start off about a bullet proof bra ?

lol, that's all Petra needs... more padding >.>
wouldn't a bullet proof bra stick off like a Madonna stage costume from the 80's, only not so pointy?

Not necessarily. If anything, I envision it would look more like a sports brassiere, and have a flattening effect.

Flattering...?

LOLZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have the image of Allesandro in nose-bleed mode in my head!!!

I said flattening, as in minimizing. Sports brassieres tend to do that to those who wear them.

Woops.

That's what I get for skimming.

http://www.tomima.com/2008/08/20/the-new-wonderbra-for-german-policewomen/

its on the first page of this thread the pictures are all there,it was designed to be worn under body armour,seems when they used to get shot the wires of their old bras would get pushed into them by the impact,so no wires no pain !

Yup, sure looks like a sports bra to me.

Nachtsider wrote:Yup, sure looks like a sports bra to me.

buut 25% more bullet resistant!

They're cyborgs. A resistant chest would be better!
Maybe made of steel or so.

Cyborg's chests already ARE resistant, no?

Nachtsider wrote:Cyborg's chests already ARE resistant, no?

Series One definitely are. I'm still hesitant to believe that Series Two models have little to no protection based on the "modify their upper bodies as little as possible" statement. It strikes me as ridiculous to create a new generation designed for close-quarters gun combat and leave their upper torsos "stock". Frankly, I think both are probably just as well-armored.

The second-gens are designed for CQB?

Nachtsider wrote:The second-gens are designed for CQB?

I do not see why not. We've seen Petra up close and personal against opponents - in heels no less.

Yes, but she aren't complete resistant - only her chest and head.
The limbs and bottom part of torso hasn't protection.

Edit: argh... too late.

Seth wrote:Yes, but she aren't complete resistant - only her chest and head.
The limbs and bottom part of torso hasn't protection.

Well we have yet to see Petra take any damage there.

I believe the only cyborg we have seen shot/stabbed in the arms and stomach was Triela. She bled a bit from the former and a good bit from the latter, but she was still fully combat-capable even though she admitted the impacts hurt like hell and knocked her on her ass.

Don't forget Henrietta's rampage.

And Angelica got a knife in the torso too, in her first operation.

Claes got the knife to her belly... Angelica took a slash to the arm.

...and don't forget Elsa (like god did) taking a few to the arm.

And the switchblade did just about nothing to Claes (it was hanging mostly out) and the slash to Angelica's arm was also minor.

So I am guessing their armor is good for at least Level 1 or 2 protection, if not even Level 3 under CEN prEN ISO 14876 Body Armour Standards.

subcutaneous armour,layers of say woven artificial spidersilk and carbon carbon,layered between the fat cells and skin,this would give good bullet resistance whilst being flexible and soft enough to feel like ordinary skin.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/01/0117_020117TVspidermammals.html

My personal opinion is that it's a mat of woven aramid or CFRP fibers that are part of the artificial musculature itself. In Chapter 59, the SWA has introduced a new way to graft skin onto the muscle directly, so it can't be something between the skin and muscle.

I've always assumed that the cyborg's skin feels like normal human skin and not present an artificial / unnatural feeling when touched. Then again, the cyborgs don't seem to normally touch / hold hands with anyone other then their handlers, who would eventually get used to an unnatural feel.

We know the cyborgs bleed under their skin and at least sweat from their foreheads. Both functions seem superfluous if the whole thing is artificial, which is why I have always believed the skin and sub-cutaneous layers are actual human tissue layered over artificial musculature and skeleton.

Therefore, putting the armor in the musculature itself would be better. I would imagine the ribcage is also improved with CFRP plate armor to absorb larger caliber and higher-energy rounds (just as higher protection levels in current body armor require steel or ceramic plates in addition to the aramid fiber layers). You could even have something like "DragonSkin" or "Chainmail" armor over the stomach and back areas to allow normal flexibility while providing better protection then pure fiber. Then again, the ballistic fibers the SWA may have access to could be so strong they negate the need for any type of "plate" protection.

This is how I deal with it in my OC universe, at least, based on my observations of the manga and anime.

Angie got a few to the stomache and chest in the first season of the anime.
Rico has one bounce off her skull, along with a few to the arm during blocking. She also got knocked in the face by Jean, enough to bleed... Damn!
Triela got a few in the arm recovering Mario. Elsa got a few in the arm in her TV mission.
Henrietta got one at the upper arm.

Peta is the only one who has not been hit, unless you count getting hit on by 'Sandro... who knows... getting fucked by a gimp is devasting enough!

ElfenMagix wrote:Peta is the only one who has not been hit, unless you count getting hit on by 'Sandro...

Ba-zing!

Well, you have to figure that they don't want to change the "core" of the 2nd gens much compared to what they did for the first so they can last/live longer.

Wouldn't it be the logical thing to need less mind craping drugs if less of your body is cyboretic to start with?

Whatever the case, and whatever type of "armor" they have inside, it would have still been a good idea to at least have something like a vest on the outside anyways? Lots of those stabbings could've been avoided, which woudl also have avoided repairs and thus more strain on their minds yet again.

On the flip side though, you can't have that sorta stuff on 24/7 but if you're going to go into a raid mission you can suit up a bit then at least. Maybe Triela wouldn't have gotten so messed in her 1st or 2nd fight with Pino had she had a bit of armor on the outside as well.

She likes long coats etc, so instead of bras or vests maybe a tough coat would work best. Since they're cyborgs a bit of added weight wouldn't matter much. Speed could go down but then if it's lightweight that's not a problem either. Those can do a good job of stopping most knife attacks also.

This is a regular Levi Strauss type denim jacket with a level IIIA bullet-proof lining cleverly sewn into the inside. Perfect for casual wear this jacket offers all round protection against everything up to, and including, .44 magnum.


http://www.spycatcheronline.co.uk/bullet-proof-body-armour-c-33.html?spyid=1117fd5635c8f044bb28d956b88eadfd

Well there you go, a perfect example of what I had in mind.

It's just odd to see the girls not use something like that ontop of their natural cyborg builtin armor.

GP wrote:It's just odd to see the girls not use something like that on top of their natural cyborg built-in armor.

I am guessing it is superfluous - at least in the manga.

Maybe if there is a serious gun battle during the "Vendetta" arc, we might get a better idea of how well-armored the girls are.

I suppse it is, or could be that way, or maybe it's just cool to get some damage on the girls to even it out a bit.

But still, it sounds like the budget is running out so if you can cut down on damages/repairs, then costs are saved as well.

I would say that this would only apply to Petra because she is not amoured, as Dr. Gulliani stated, 1)"For the Second Gneration, we left the upper torso untouched." and 2)"She will have a long life, as long as she does not get shot."

I still believe the Second Generation have armor. It makes no sense to not armor them unless they are never expected to see combat, which I cannot believe was the plan, even if they are able to perform more missions then the First Generation.

After all, the plan was to perform less modifications to the Second Generation - not none at all.

Maybe the 2nd gen need it more compared to the 1st, but why say that it only applies to the 2nd gen?

If you want the 1st gen to last long and need less conditioning then why not use something like the jacket posted a bit ago? Less damage also keeps costs down for the agency as well. It just seems like a win-win for me. And I find it silly that nothing like that is used for the 1st gen girls.

ElfenMagix wrote:I would say that this would only apply to Petra because she is not amoured, as Dr. Gulliani stated, 1)"For the Second Gneration, we left the upper torso untouched." and 2)"She will have a long life, as long as she does not get shot."

i believe he was only talking about her skeleton,thats why petra hurt herself stretching,her super strong muscles put to much strain on her pelvis,which does strike me as daft,especially as her arms must be cyborged as well

GP wrote:Maybe the 2nd gen need it more compared to the 1st, but why say that it only applies to the 2nd gen?

If you want the 1st gen to last long and need less conditioning then why not use something like the jacket posted a bit ago? Less damage also keeps costs down for the agency as well. It just seems like a win-win for me. And I find it silly that nothing like that is used for the 1st gen girls.

As assassins, the girls would be more effective having freedom of movement. Wearing heavy and thick bullet-resistant jackets would impede their movement. It would also look out of place in some situations - "why is that girl wearing a rain coast when it is 30° and sunny out?"

They appear to be armored to at least FMJ 7.62x39mm Russian, which means that pistol rounds already have minimal effect on them, so clothing rated for such rounds is probably superfluous.

"why is that girl wearing a rain coast when it is 30° and sunny out?"

Maybe it's a double bluff? "No, there's no chance that that shady bloke in sunglasses, trenchcoat with a bulge at the waist, loose-fitting jacket, fedora and who keeps speaking into his wrist is a spy - it's just too obvious!"

but we know that they aren't well armoured, a standard 7.62 soviet round "shaved off part of her skin and artificial muscle" leading to the replacement of said muscle and skin in chapter 2 resulting in Henrietta having a large dose of the conditioning drug and all its side affects,we do know that an antipersonnel mine will cause damage and a truck bombs damage can be physically repaired, it was Angies poor neurological state that killed her,the biggest advantage the girls have with their injuries is that they seem insensitive to pain, to quote Henrietta "I feel pain but it fades quickly"

Can we at least agree that they're impervious to pistol ammo?

Awinnell wrote:but we know that they aren't well armoured, a standard 7.62 soviet round "shaved off part of her skin and artificial muscle"...

Well you have to admit a 7.72x39mmR round impacting a human shoulder will inflict a good deal more damage then that.

That being said, it is hard to determine just how tough they are. In Chapter 37, when the hit on Prosecutor Guellfi happens, the assassins are using silenced pistols and assault rifles. One would therefore assume they are using sub-sonic ammunition so that means much slower rounds and much lower impact energies.

A sub-sonic 9mm round would impact with less then 400J of energy which even Level 1 ballistic armor can stop with a backface deformation under 40mm.

I cannot find direct data on sub-sonic 5.56. One guy said it hit with about 1/7th the energy, which would be around 250J. Another guy said it was like .22LR which is under 100J when traveling subsonic. Those kinds of energies are downright laughable and I cannot see them knocking Triela flat on her ass and creating a huge blood-spray as we see on Page 156. So assuming they're firing M193 ammo through a suppressor (which makes the suppressor effectively useless - not that it's great to begin with - even the best only knock about 40dB off the noise) then it would hit with a force in the area of 1700J which Level 4 armor will stop with no more then 44mm of backface deformation. However that level of armor either requires ceramic plates or hard fiber-based laminate systems.


As an aside, I noticed on one site noted that H&K firearms cannot use subsonic ammunition because they use a fluted chamber which prevents cartridge case obturation and allowing propellant gasses to escape out the breech, and possibly sticking a projectile in the bore. So Michele actually couldn't fire subsonic ammunition from the PSG1 as I wrote in Under the Radar. So I suppose I'll need to modify that story and give him something else.

How about to certain 'types' of pistol ammo.

For example, they may be impervious to standard military jacket 9mm - .45 rounds, but hollow-points will slow down an EJO.

And the only actual pistol ammo that will have any severe detrimental effect will be AP rounds and incendiary rounds.

Personally if I knew I was going to engage a EJO, I'm going to pack SJ-ESC in a 9x19 full-auto.

This is why I have my OC(s) wear ballistic resistant body armour from Miguel Caballero, and at times layers of such amour. Yu stated that "She will have a long life as long as she is not shot." says to me that the type 2s are not amoured at all. Thus Fernando has given his girls external armour to wear, esp. on missions.

With his cothing and armour designs, my OCs can appear to look like they are not wearing amour when they are. Of course, Fernando and Miguel have been friends since he joined his American Agency, since his early days, Miguel handled all his customers personally himself and Fernando was one of his earlier ones.

ElfenMagix wrote:Yu stated that "She will have a long life as long as she is not shot." says to me that the type 2s are not amoured at all. Thus Fernando has given his girls external armour to wear, esp. on missions.

Which makes absolutely no sense, frankly.

I mean it's pretty stupid to create a new series designed to live twice as long and then make them defenseless.

Plus shot where? If I am shot in the arm or leg, it won't kill me. Why would it kill a cyborg?

I think the docs were referring to the same "kill shot" that would take out a Series 1 - head/eye or (artificial) heart and not making a general declaration that any wound that would kill a human (lung, kidney, liver, gut) would kill a Series 2 because they are as naturally unprotected as a human is.