Lifespan
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Lifespan
Ok, I did a cursory search and didn't see this addressed in another topic exactly (if I'm wrong, I apologize, just point me in the right direction). Does anyone have any theories on why the conditioning/repairs/whatever shortens the lifespan of the girls (at least the first generation)? They seem to indicate that it is something like stress on the brain, but why then are repairs a bad thing, and why can't it be fixed with simple R&R or theoropy or the like? I guess I want sound medical reasoning here, and I either missed something or its not stated, in which case I'd like your opinions.
Guest- Guest
Re: Lifespan
The conditioning is necessary to ensure that their cyber implants and stuff work properly. Sadly, it apparently also happens to be toxic in some way, leading to shortening of lifespan, memory loss and all that jazz. The girls can't live without it, and live short lives with it. It's a sad, vicious cycle.
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Re: Lifespan
Ya... is that all we know from the manga? There's that drug addiction thing, too, right? Is that related?
Guest- Guest
Re: Lifespan
Yup. If they don't get their conditioning drugs, they develop withdrawal symptoms. As I mentioned prior, they need the drugs to get their cyber implants working right.
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Re: Lifespan
Yes, it is necessary for the wetware to work with the hardware but damages the wetware as it does.
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Re: Lifespan
They have to give them conditioning every time they repair them. My guess is it's to help their body accept the new parts.mendoksou wrote:They seem to indicate that it is something like stress on the brain, but why then are repairs a bad thing, and why can't it be fixed with simple R&R or theoropy or the like?
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Re: Lifespan
Neuroleptic drugs, which are commonly used in brain washing, or "conditioning" as it is in GG, are thought to shorten lifespans, as well as destroy sexual function and fertility, among other nasty things.
It's a scary little side of Psychiatry that I try to avoid knowing too much about, but I would say Yu Aida seems well-versed in the studies.
Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS) is interesting, and may explain certain parts of the GG story, like when one of the girls wakes up after surgery, or when Henrietta refers to her new arm as being "stiff". NMS is defined as "a life-threatening condition that may be caused by certain drugs used to treat mental illness, nausea, or vomiting. Symptoms include high fever, sweating, unstable blood pressure, confusion, and stiffness".
It's a scary little side of Psychiatry that I try to avoid knowing too much about, but I would say Yu Aida seems well-versed in the studies.
Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS) is interesting, and may explain certain parts of the GG story, like when one of the girls wakes up after surgery, or when Henrietta refers to her new arm as being "stiff". NMS is defined as "a life-threatening condition that may be caused by certain drugs used to treat mental illness, nausea, or vomiting. Symptoms include high fever, sweating, unstable blood pressure, confusion, and stiffness".
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Re: Lifespan
mendoksou wrote:Ok, I did a cursory search and didn't see this addressed in another topic exactly (if I'm wrong, I apologize, just point me in the right direction). Does anyone have any theories on why the conditioning/repairs/whatever shortens the lifespan of the girls (at least the first generation)? They seem to indicate that it is something like stress on the brain, but why then are repairs a bad thing, and why can't it be fixed with simple R&R or theoropy or the like? I guess I want sound medical reasoning here, and I either missed something or its not stated, in which case I'd like your opinions.
haven't we had this already in a "how the cyborgs will die" thread and a "how the cyborgs could be saved" thread?
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Re: Lifespan
He's new.
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Re: Lifespan
*look's at the memeber's profile* ow. well as for lifespan wise i guess 1st gens got around 6-7 years when... properly cared for (that's if Triela is really gonna die soon). and shorter if u don't take care of em or not even care for them eg. Elsa
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Re: Lifespan
I'd have to disagree with you on one point Nile. Elsa was an abnomalty. She's like, what, the first cyborg ever to die? By her own hand no less? AFTER shooting her handler for breaking her heart?
Hm, maybe she managed to get into Guiness or something. I mean, she's famous! Everbody in the cyborg buisness knows her name. People even sing songs about her (looks at Sheo)!
Somebody give the girl a medal.
Hm, maybe she managed to get into Guiness or something. I mean, she's famous! Everbody in the cyborg buisness knows her name. People even sing songs about her (looks at Sheo)!
Somebody give the girl a medal.
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Re: Lifespan
A Purple Heart, at the very least.
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Re: Lifespan
sasahara17 wrote: People even sing songs about her (looks at Sheo)!
really? i wanna hear it (or read it alteast)
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Re: Lifespan
If they don't get the proper conditioning I know they get withdrawl, but what would happen if they didn't get conditioned. Would they die?
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Re: Lifespan
Well, the cyber implants are all that's keeping them going, and the conditioning is required for the cyber implants to work. The withdrawal symptoms resulting from not getting the conditioning would thus be but the first stretch of a dark and dreary road leading to... well, I think you know where.
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Re: Lifespan
Bleh.
In my opinion, its probably the fact that the conditioning and the amount of cybernetics really don't work together. At least not well.
I mean, they have to be taking a ridiculous amount of medication, even with the conditioning. I mean, with so much of their original bodies gone, they have to be medically regulating certain process. Now this normally would be relatively harmless, I mean, people all around the world have a certain level of cybernetism (from things such as artificial hearts, joints, other organs, and limbs) without a real recognizable impact on their lifespans (or in the case of the artificial heart, a significant increase in their lifespans).
However combine that level of chemical regulation and conditioning medication, which plays with brain chemistry and causes shifts in body chemistry of even normal people, and you have created a system that is inherently unstable. And if you continue to increase or add more medication, it'll only get worse. System failure is inevitable.
~ Macavity
In my opinion, its probably the fact that the conditioning and the amount of cybernetics really don't work together. At least not well.
I mean, they have to be taking a ridiculous amount of medication, even with the conditioning. I mean, with so much of their original bodies gone, they have to be medically regulating certain process. Now this normally would be relatively harmless, I mean, people all around the world have a certain level of cybernetism (from things such as artificial hearts, joints, other organs, and limbs) without a real recognizable impact on their lifespans (or in the case of the artificial heart, a significant increase in their lifespans).
However combine that level of chemical regulation and conditioning medication, which plays with brain chemistry and causes shifts in body chemistry of even normal people, and you have created a system that is inherently unstable. And if you continue to increase or add more medication, it'll only get worse. System failure is inevitable.
~ Macavity
Guest- Guest
Re: Lifespan
the more I read, the shorter I think their lifespans are...
- Spoiler:
that's for the gen2s, so... if the originals were only supposed to live half that long... two and a half to three and a half years.
...But if Ange only lasted about three years, well... those were a busy three years.
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Re: Lifespan
LoC. The trouble with this is Angie was the first one, and Triela is figured to be about 5 - 6 years as a cyborg. Though Jean's mouth constantly says the wrong things (forcing Rabello to rewrite Claes 'For Safety Concerns'), I think Jean does not know what he is talking about. Angie seems to have reached that 5 - 7 year mark on her own if you follow that Triela was a cyborg for 5 - 6 years. The Type 2s are suposed to last twice as long than the type ones, making them last about 10 - 14 years.
Angie would have kept on going for another couple more years if some idiot did decide to blow up a garbage truck full of explosives in front of her! Mind you- her body managed to survive- it was the injury to her brain that eventually did her in! And I believe that the med-tech put her down but ODing her on the conditioning meds, for they thought she was too much to repair. The thing is about the human body is that given enough time, it will heal from any sustained injury. The Med-Techs in my belief did not want to put that much more of an investment in Angie, so they put her down and will give Marco another cyborg to play with...
I think that the cyborgs can last at least 10 years, if not longer. Provided that they are properly cared for.
Angie would have kept on going for another couple more years if some idiot did decide to blow up a garbage truck full of explosives in front of her! Mind you- her body managed to survive- it was the injury to her brain that eventually did her in! And I believe that the med-tech put her down but ODing her on the conditioning meds, for they thought she was too much to repair. The thing is about the human body is that given enough time, it will heal from any sustained injury. The Med-Techs in my belief did not want to put that much more of an investment in Angie, so they put her down and will give Marco another cyborg to play with...
I think that the cyborgs can last at least 10 years, if not longer. Provided that they are properly cared for.
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Re: Lifespan
Elfen... if Jean was lying to Alessandro in order to scare him (and I hope he was), I agree with you. However, if he was just throwing the cold, hard truth out there... then the Gen2s are only expected to last 5-7 years... and since it's been established earlier that the Gen2s are expected to last approximately twice as long as the Gen1s, that would mean Angie only lasted... well, 4 years maximum.
to address this, though:
to address this, though:
...we don't have any information to support those numbers, unfortunately. The passage of time is incredibly difficult to track in this series.Elfen wrote:I think Jean does not know what he is talking about. Angie seems to have reached that 5 - 7 year mark on her own if you follow that Triela was a cyborg for 5 - 6 years.
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Re: Lifespan
My response to LoC (in spoiler tags 'cause it has stuff from the latest chapter):
- Spoiler:
- Chapter 54 goes over Triela's past. It clearly states that her rescue occurred 6 years previous to the current story. I highly doubt that Hillshire kept her in his house for a while with only one leg. I believe that he brought her to Italy to become a cyborg ASAP. That would make Triela a cyborg for 6 years.
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Re: Lifespan
Thank you, KodokuRyuu.
I knew I read it somewhere, just could not remember where.
I knew I read it somewhere, just could not remember where.
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Re: Lifespan
guess I should keep up with the scanlations better.
- Spoiler:
- So, it's been 6 years since he picked Triela off the floor of that dock warehouse in Amsterdam... I guess that makes a minimum of 5 years as a cyborg for Triela (we're still in the dark about how long the reconstruction process takes... I say 3 months minimum, 1 year max)... so yeah. Jean was quoting Gen1 numbers... probably to scare 'Sandro.
...and all this makes me say: SWEET! I don't hafta rethink my numbers anymore!
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Re: Lifespan
- Spoiler:
- So, my estimate of 2001 to 2007 for Triela's total SWA service at time of the chapter in question can hold water! Yippee!
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Re: Lifespan
What chapter are you on?LoC978 wrote: guess I should keep up with the scanlations better.
- Spoiler:
So, it's been 6 years since he picked Triela off the floor of that dock warehouse in Amsterdam... I guess that makes a minimum of 5 years as a cyborg for Triela (we're still in the dark about how long the reconstruction process takes... I say 3 months minimum, 1 year max)... so yeah. Jean was quoting Gen1 numbers... probably to scare 'Sandro.
...and all this makes me say: SWEET! I don't hafta rethink my numbers anymore!
- Spoiler:
- Chapters 30 and 31 seem to indicate it takes about a month or a little more to design a new body, reconstruct the subject's body, and condition them for a 2nd Gen. Angelica of course took much longer 'cause she was the first one. I'm guessing by Triela's time it probably took 3-4 months max. The doctors acted like conditioning was the part that took the longest (They were wondering if they could actually condition someone in only three weeks.) They said Petra's skin would take three days to do and sounded like the body reconstruction took a few days.
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Re: Lifespan
really, i always thought, the whole reconstruction took 1 day, 2 at
most. how d hell can u leave an un finish cyborg, just lying there on
the surgery table over night?!
most. how d hell can u leave an un finish cyborg, just lying there on
the surgery table over night?!
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Re: Lifespan
Not hard to envision, really - they do it one limb at a time, each session ending when surgery on the limb in question is complete.
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Re: Lifespan
well ya, i guess that would work... but this is not just limbs were
talking about. one day for left leg, one day for right leg, one day for
left arm, one day for right arm, one day for head maybe, and then d
torso
talking about. one day for left leg, one day for right leg, one day for
left arm, one day for right arm, one day for head maybe, and then d
torso
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Re: Lifespan
I'd say they do smaller parts than entire limbs in a session... I've done a bit of studying in both human anatomy and mechanical engineering. Even just a hand is a pretty complex machine. Imagine rebuilding one to be able to handle the stresses of super-strong muscles... and we're not talking bolt-on parts here... each cyborg is different in size and build, so we're talking designing each part from scratch as you get to 'em.
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Re: Lifespan
They would have to use a template for just the basic design and alter it for each of the girls' differences.
Q: What is this thing with Yu and legs?!!
I'm just realizing, Triela, Henrietta, Angie, and Petra had their legs shown removed in some stage or another... Maybe he's a leg-man or something.
Q: What is this thing with Yu and legs?!!
I'm just realizing, Triela, Henrietta, Angie, and Petra had their legs shown removed in some stage or another... Maybe he's a leg-man or something.
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Re: Lifespan
I think you're probably right about Yu being a leg-man. He definitely had the chance to give Petra a considerable rack, but ended up making her a leggy dancer instead.
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Re: Lifespan
:lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!:
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Re: Lifespan
LoC978 wrote:I'd say they do smaller parts than entire limbs in a session... I've done a bit of studying in both human anatomy and mechanical engineering. Even just a hand is a pretty complex machine. Imagine rebuilding one to be able to handle the stresses of super-strong muscles... and we're not talking bolt-on parts here... each cyborg is different in size and build, so we're talking designing each part from scratch as you get to 'em.
I would agree there... the surgery itself probably isn't the main time investment in the process. What about the conditioning, then? I'd guess that might take some time, and it seems to be indicated that it is done after the surgery, as one of the girls is shown (I forget who and when, I'd guess Petrushka, but it may have been a flashback) waking up right after her conditioning is done, and the surgery is clearly done first.
Guest- Guest
Re: Lifespan
It was Petra, all right. Angie also had her surgery done first, and her conditioning second - but Angie's conditioning appears to have been administered in small doses over a period of time.
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Re: Lifespan
Sorry this is so long - I haven't been on much today.
I thought that too until I read that.West Nile wrote:really, i always thought, the whole reconstruction took 1 day, 2 at
most. how d hell can u leave an un finish cyborg, just lying there on
the surgery table over night?!
Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.Nachtsider wrote:Not hard to envision, really - they do it one limb
at a time, each session ending when surgery on the limb in question is
complete.
Definitely. I think they prebuild as much as they can before attaching it.LoC978 wrote:I'd say they do smaller parts than entire limbs in a
session... I've done a bit of studying in both human anatomy and
mechanical engineering. Even just a hand is a pretty complex
machine. Imagine rebuilding one to be able to handle the stresses of
super-strong muscles... and we're not talking bolt-on parts here...
each cyborg is different in size and build, so we're talking designing
each part from scratch as you get to 'em.
And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.ElfenMagix wrote:Q: What is this thing with Yu and legs?!!
I'm
just realizing, Triela, Henrietta, Angie, and Petra had their legs
shown removed in some stage or another... Maybe he's a leg-man or
something.
Yeah, Angie was they first one so they didn't know exactly how it would all work yet. After much experimentation, they got it down where they could make one go of it and even program them with info on guns, their handler, themselves, etc. Ange orriginally woke up remembering who she was and stuff.Nachtsider wrote:It was Petra, all right. Angie also had her surgery
done first, and her conditioning second - but Ange's conditioning
appears to have been administered in small doses over a period of
time.
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Re: Lifespan
Well, the muscles are artifical and all that, so leaving them exposed won't cause infections or any such problems.KodokuRyuu wrote:Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.
I personally wouldn't put it past Yu to be one for... what was it called again? Guro, or something along those lines.KodokuRyuu wrote:And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.
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Re: Lifespan
Well, it is known that many Japanese males go completely Ga Ga over long sleak legs. I mean, from my point of view: Why the heck do you think that school girls in anime always have such damn short skirts and sleak legs anyway?
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Re: Lifespan
Lol male anime artists and costume designers.
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Re: Lifespan
In cases like Henrietta, Triela, Petrushka and Rico (perhaps Angie too)- their cyborg implants had to have been put in as a whole as those limbs themselves were missing, and they had to train to get them working on a minimal level. Then the conditioning medication came in to augment their hardware... In Petrushka's case, it was all done at once over the course of several days, while Angie almost took a year or two. The other girls had to have theirs done over the course of weeks, if not months.
So in this light, it seems that the girls no not need the conditioning medication to operate their limbs, but the limbs then become primate prostetics. Something about the conditioning medication that gives the girls augmented abilities with their parts... Possibly connecting natural nerves to synthetic ones and senors, without buring out the natural ones, so their brains can have total and natural control of their cyborg limbs and parts. But to have that level of perfection means having a deal with the devil- a short life span.
So in this light, it seems that the girls no not need the conditioning medication to operate their limbs, but the limbs then become primate prostetics. Something about the conditioning medication that gives the girls augmented abilities with their parts... Possibly connecting natural nerves to synthetic ones and senors, without buring out the natural ones, so their brains can have total and natural control of their cyborg limbs and parts. But to have that level of perfection means having a deal with the devil- a short life span.
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Re: Lifespan
Yeah, I know it just seems creepy. Heh, think of this: what if Sandro walked in before they put her skin on.Nachtsider wrote:Well, the muscles are artifical and all that, so leaving them exposed won't cause infections or any such problems.KodokuRyuu wrote:Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.
Yeah, it's guro (グロ), which is short for grotesque (グロテスク).Nachtsider wrote:I personally wouldn't put it past Yu to be one for... what was it called again? Guro, or something along those lines.KodokuRyuu wrote:And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.
@Elfen - yeah, that all sounds right to me.
Last edited by KodokuRyuu on Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 22:29; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Missed a quote tag)
KodokuRyuu- Resident Translator
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Forum Posts : 1237
Location : Texas
Fan of : Triela, Beatrice, Silvia
Original Characters : Hulkshire, Yu Aida, Berny & Bea
Registration date : 2008-04-28
Re: Lifespan
[quote="Nachtsider"]
I think it was in episode 6 season 2 that they showed one of the girls being "programed", she was moving her fingers and stuff and had no skin at all.
Yu? he's probably a Loli/ Guro person, thus the morbid injuries the girls usually get before becoming cyborgs
Well, the muscles are artifical and all that, so leaving them exposed won't cause infections or any such problems.KodokuRyuu wrote:Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.
I think it was in episode 6 season 2 that they showed one of the girls being "programed", she was moving her fingers and stuff and had no skin at all.
Nachtsider wrote:I personally wouldn't put it past Yu to be one for... what was it called again? Guro, or something along those lines.KodokuRyuu wrote:And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.
Yu? he's probably a Loli/ Guro person, thus the morbid injuries the girls usually get before becoming cyborgs
West Nile- WestNilepedia
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Forum Posts : 1747
Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines
Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta
Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette
Registration date : 2008-01-22
Re: Lifespan
Which girl?West Nile wrote:I think it was in episode 6 season 2 that they showed one of the girls being "programed", she was moving her fingers and stuff and had no skin at all.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
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Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Lifespan
Nachtsider wrote:Which girl?West Nile wrote:I think it was in episode 6 season 2 that they showed one of the girls being "programed", she was moving her fingers and stuff and had no skin at all.
if i knew, i would have put a name, but since there was no skin... i can't tell
West Nile- WestNilepedia
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Forum Posts : 1747
Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines
Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta
Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette
Registration date : 2008-01-22
Re: Lifespan
No face shot?
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
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Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Lifespan
nein. looks like a classic sci-fi thing again. skinless cyborg scene:
LoC978- Beach Bum Revolutionary
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Forum Posts : 2628
Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.
Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.
Registration date : 2007-09-10
Re: Lifespan
Could have been someone random. By the way, anyone want me to reveal a spoiler from chapter 55? They tell how long it took to make Triela into a cyborg.
KodokuRyuu- Resident Translator
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Forum Posts : 1237
Location : Texas
Fan of : Triela, Beatrice, Silvia
Original Characters : Hulkshire, Yu Aida, Berny & Bea
Registration date : 2008-04-28
Re: Lifespan
Go ahead.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
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Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Lifespan
Warning: spoiler from chapter 55:
- Spoiler:
- They spent a year conditioning her. They may have turned her into a cyborg after that since her body was stable, but I don't remember right now.
KodokuRyuu- Resident Translator
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Forum Posts : 1237
Location : Texas
Fan of : Triela, Beatrice, Silvia
Original Characters : Hulkshire, Yu Aida, Berny & Bea
Registration date : 2008-04-28
Re: Lifespan
- Spoiler:
- I'm more inclined to think that Triela, being the second earliest Agency girl, would have been conditioned in a pattern similar to Angie - after her reconstruction. Go by this line of reasoning, and you'll have Triela getting her drugs in small doses over a year-long post-roboticizing period.
Nachtsider- KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
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Forum Posts : 5722
Location : Inside your closet. In your head.
Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated
Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus
Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.
Registration date : 2007-09-09
Re: Lifespan
- Spoiler:
- That's assuming that's actually Ange in the other bed. The chapter doesn't say. Does it feel like we're whispering to you? 'Cause it does to me.
KodokuRyuu- Resident Translator
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Forum Posts : 1237
Location : Texas
Fan of : Triela, Beatrice, Silvia
Original Characters : Hulkshire, Yu Aida, Berny & Bea
Registration date : 2008-04-28
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