Petrushka

Was the shower scene presented in a titillating or gratuitous manner? Not a rhetorical question; I genuinely don't know, since I haven't seen it.

Remind me again what the cover of ominbus 2 looked like; I haven't seen that, either.

Nachtsider wrote:Was the shower scene presented in a titillating or gratuitous manner? Not a rhetorical question; I genuinely don't know, since I haven't seen it.

I'm going to say no on that one, which only supports my view that that wasn't supposed to be fanservice.

Nachtsider wrote:Remind me again what the cover of ominbus 2 looked like; I haven't seen that, either.

You're welcome.

Tross wrote:

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Sorry to spoil it man, I forgot you were a bit behind the rest of of us, sorry.

That's ok.

Few, it's all good then

Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing, I think people who make that kind of fanart need to get some help.

Amen to that, brother. Unfortunatley, rule 34 will plague the world forever. Especially when the girls are underage. THis may just be me being prudish, but the under age stuff deos make it seem like there are a lot of pedophiles out there. *shivers* that stuff hust ain't right.

Kiskaloo wrote:And when you consider doujin and erotic fan art, it's all about Henrietta, Rico, Claes and Triela having sex

I didn't need that mentle image, mate. I hold you responsible for all my mentle issues for the rest of my life

And the cover above still creeps me out a bit.

Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing, I think people who make that kind of fanart need to get some help.

Amen to that, brother. Unfortunatley, rule 34 will plague the world forever. Especially when the girls are underage. THis may just be me being prudish, but the under age stuff deos make it seem like there are a lot of pedophiles out there. *shivers* that stuff hust ain't right.

actually its a newish thing for rule 34 but they're actually removing all under aged art

Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing...It's certainly not what this series is about, and it really just cheapens everything that Yu Aida has done with the series.

Honestly, they're just following in Yu's footsteps as the eroge video game Bittersweet Fools could be considered the foundation for Gunslinger Girls.

Ultimately, I guess one can pick and choose what you like about the series and focus on that.

Kiskaloo wrote:

Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing...It's certainly not what this series is about, and it really just cheapens everything that Yu Aida has done with the series.

Honestly, they're just following in Yu's footsteps as the eroge video game Bittersweet Fools could be considered the foundation for Gunslinger Girls.

That was an eroge? I'm not sure how to respond to that. Well, if that's the case, I like to think Yu turned over a new leaf with GG.

Interestingly enough, when I looked up the above cover, I also decided to check and see if omnibus 5's cover is up. It's not, but for some reason, google images not only came up with the previous omnibus covers, but it also came up with the one for the Blood Alone omnibus. Talk about a terrible series. There's absolutely zero chance that I have a copy of that omnibus in my collection. Zero chance. I wonder when the next omnibus is coming out?

(looks at cover of omnibus 2)

Doesn't look fanservice-y at all. I see nothing sexual about it.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Amen to that, brother. Unfortunatley, rule 34 will plague the world forever. Especially when the girls are underage. THis may just be me being prudish, but the under age stuff deos make it seem like there are a lot of pedophiles out there. *shivers* that stuff hust ain't right.

Whomever is aroused by that stuff IS a pedophile. No ifs, ands or buts.

I’ve always felt Yu went hog wild on Petra. He not only made her a total sex kitten, but he also took all of the best qualities and personality traits from the other girls and tried to stuff them all into her character. Throw her ‘special relationship’ with Sandro on top of that and you have a dandy Mary-Sue cocktail. While it’s easy to sympathize with the other girls, it’s impossible to do with little Miss Perfect.

I genuinely hope that if Yu decides to continue the story, he’ll take a lesson from the first generation and tries to make the other gen2 girl’s a little more relatable. If he does, I think there’s a definite possibility it just might work.

Nachtsider wrote:(looks at cover of omnibus 2)

Doesn't look fanservice-y at all. I see nothing sexual about it.

The way Triela looks is more depressing than anything else.

Danjo3 wrote:

Nachtsider wrote:Doesn't look fanservice-y at all. I see nothing sexual about it.

The way Triela looks is more depressing than anything else.

As in, she looks sad, or she makes you sad?

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:As in, she looks sad, or she makes you sad?

She looks very troubled.

Tross wrote:Hillshire died too? Well, I guess it's just as well, considering there wouldn't be much to his story without Triela. Like I said, I'm not up on the current manga, but if he died without it being explained, that doesn't sound good at all. I guess I'll have to find out how that's handled later.

At the end of the chapter where Hillshire was holding Triela, the bad guys were coming in from around the corner.

ElfenMagix wrote:

Tross wrote:Hillshire died too? Well, I guess it's just as well, considering there wouldn't be much to his story without Triela. Like I said, I'm not up on the current manga, but if he died without it being explained, that doesn't sound good at all. I guess I'll have to find out how that's handled later.

At the end of the chapter where Hillshire was holding Triela, the bad guys were coming in from around the corner.

Ah, I see now. I didn't spot that. So he got shot in the arse,. I t may have been Triela's fault though. Hillshire knew the enemy was comming, he tried to turn around, to bring his weapons to bare, to show them what for. However, Triela, in he blood loss induced stupur, didn't want to let her beloved go, blissfully unaware of the aproaching danger. As much as Hillshire squirmed, he could not break free of her grip, and was killed because of her love.

To appreciate Petra, you have to sort of flip your point of view around. One of our senior members observed that the handlers' characters tend to be better-developed than the girls', as if the kids are really just mirrors and sounding boards for the adults. If you look at it that way, Sandro the Loves-a-Little-Bit-of-Everything Guy must really think he needs a cyborg he can mold like putty, yet he's got one who thinks for herself when he least expects it. I think their dynamic has a lot of potential, if developed properly. I can actually see her taking charge of the fratello, with Alessandro reverting to his earlier role and becoming subordinate to his second redheaded partner.

Thescarredman wrote:To appreciate Petra, you have to sort of flip your point of view around. One of our senior members observed that the handlers' characters tend to be better-developed than the girls', as if the kids are really just mirrors and sounding boards for the adults. If you look at it that way, Sandro the Loves-a-Little-Bit-of-Everything Guy must really think he needs a cyborg he can mold like putty, yet he's got one who thinks for herself when he least expects it. I think their dynamic has a lot of potential, if developed properly. I can actually see her taking charge of the fratello, with Alessandro reverting to his earlier role and becoming subordinate to his second redheaded partner.

Interesting....

tremec6speed wrote:

Thescarredman wrote:To appreciate Petra, you have to sort of flip your point of view around. One of our senior members observed that the handlers' characters tend to be better-developed than the girls', as if the kids are really just mirrors and sounding boards for the adults. If you look at it that way, Sandro the Loves-a-Little-Bit-of-Everything Guy must really think he needs a cyborg he can mold like putty, yet he's got one who thinks for herself when he least expects it. I think their dynamic has a lot of potential, if developed properly. I can actually see her taking charge of the fratello, with Alessandro reverting to his earlier role and becoming subordinate to his second redheaded partner.

Interesting....

Indeed. I've never looked at it that way. Poor bloke just can't escape gingers.

Nah. He's just a gimp.

That is true, actually. I think a big part of it is that the handlers are older, and have obviously had more experiences than the girls have had. They've all had stuff in their pasts that haunts them. Another part of it is that the girls are brainwashed, which significantly affects their sense of identity, among other things. Everyone's so fixated on the girls, but the handlers are very much a part of things too, and I don't think they get enough credit.

The series just wouldn't be the same without the dynamic that the handlers bring to the table. I see both members of a fratello as one unit. While they can be separated, they tend to play off of each other, and act as foils to one another. Plus, it's fratellos, not just cyborgs, that go on missions, and stories that revolve around one tend to include the other.

Of course, it goes both ways. People can be fixated on Petra as a Mary-Sue, but if you stop and think about it, Sandro's even more of a Gary-Stu. He was in every chapter in omnibus 3, but Petra actually wasn't. She wasn't in the flashback chapters in the Lady Rosso arc. She only showboated by extension of him showboating. I still enjoyed those chapters a lot, mind you.

Nachtsider wrote:Nah. He's just a gimp.

Fernando: Gimp... Gimp! GIMP!!!

Alpha: Calm down Fernando, you're drooling all over the floor!

Fernando: I am? Sorry.

*Fernando goes out of his window and pulls out the Louisville Slugger from HELL...*


Fernando: Lets see how a little grey matter and blood will mix with that drool... OH 'SANDRO! I Need You here For A Moment!!!

Petra certainly has got a lot of bashing on this thread. Some folks claim she exists purely for 'fanservice', even though she didn't appear in the manga undressed as often as Triela, Claes or Henrietta. She's called 'shallow' even though she's one of the few cyborgs to directly challenge her conditioning and follow her own mind. But worst of all is the stigma of 'weakness' stuck on her for taking her own life, even though cyberization may have been the only reason Henrietta, everyone's darling, didn't do just that.

To those folks, I offer this little scenario:

Elizabeta Baranovskaya bumped open the door to the roof and hobbled out on her crutches. It seemed to have taken forever to struggle up the stairs, and she was certain the hospital staff must have missed her by now; it wouldn’t be long before they came looking for her up here. She didn’t have much time.

The breeze toyed with her short blonde hair, cooling the sweaty scalp underneath. She took a deep breath, letting the perspiration dry while she studied the wispy clouds overhead. Coming up here always seemed to lift her cares. The view was beautiful, and the sunshine warmed her and eased the pain in her leg – a leg which still throbbed sometimes, even though it was no longer there.

She shook her head, remembering. When they’d told her, she’d reacted very badly. She’d said things that had made the staff worry she’d do something crazy. Liza was still far from accepting that she’d never dance again, but the brief thoughts she’d had of ending her life were done, at least for now.

She swung her crutches and hips forward in an alternating rhythm still strange to her, wincing at the discomfort of the rubber rests under her arms, until she stood at the edge of the roof overlooking the staff parking at the rear of the building. There was no wall or rail along this part, just a long strip of metal flashing perhaps ten centimeters wide overlapping the edge, still beaded with dew. She stayed just behind it and stared down into the lot four stories below. People looked so small, their faces unrecognizable, their errands and concerns a mystery. She could wish for such a detached perspective on her own life right now.

She stared down at her right leg –or rather, at the bandaged stump that ended just above the knee. If only they’d been able to save the joint, her chances of dancing again would have been so much better. Not onstage, that dream was finished; just for her own pleasure, and for the way it had of taking her outside herself. There had been hints from the doctors about advanced prosthetics not yet available to the general public, but they’d made no promises about being able to secure such a thing for a foreign patient. Artificial limbs available back home were about as much use to a ballet dancer as a wooden peg.

She would have liked to have someone to talk to, but she was separated from almost everyone she saw by the barrier of language. An interpreter accompanied the doctors who came to see her, but none of the staff she saw all day spoke Russian. One of the orderlies did, after a fashion, and they’d struck up a friendship. And once before the surgery, on this very roof, she’d met a strange and handsome man who spoke with an accent more Muscovite than her own, even after living there six years, and in gratitude she’d danced for him as well as she was still able. But most of her time was spent alone, surrounded by people she couldn’t talk to except through gestures. She’d had the oddest notion, as she’d climbed the stairs, that she might find him waiting for her up here, but of course the roof had been empty.

She would have to make her decision alone.

The town of San Lorenzo spread out before her, bigger, greener and more prosperous-looking than her hometown of Smolensk. There was no comparison to Moscow, of course; that city was in a class by itself. She would return there, she decided, as soon as the doctors here released her. What she would do after that was less clear. What sort of place could she find there if she couldn’t dance? She was too young to teach.

Or was she? As a sixth-year student, she’d often been tapped to assist the instructors in the less advanced classes. The newer students seemed more comfortable with her, since she was more their size, and learned easily from her. And she always felt a warm pleasure taking someone younger under her wing and teaching her things. Perhaps she could find a school which would accept her…

She could hear footsteps on the stairs, and voices: her attendants, come for her at last. God knew what they would think if they opened the door and saw her standing on the edge of the roof looking down. But suicide was the farthest thing from her mind now. I may never dance again, she thought, but I will walk. And I will teach. No one is going to tell me that all the struggles and sacrifices in my life have been for nothing. She put on a reassuring smile, and turned clumsily toward the door…

…and the rubber tip of the crutch skidded on wet metal and slid over the edge into empty space.

Thescarredman wrote:Petra certainly has got a lot of bashing on this thread. Some folks claim she exists purely for 'fanservice', even though she didn't appear in the manga undressed as often as Triela, Claes or Henrietta. She's called 'shallow' even though she's one of the few cyborgs to directly challenge her conditioning and follow her own mind. But worst of all is the stigma of 'weakness' stuck on her for taking her own life, even though cyberization may have been the only reason Henrietta, everyone's darling, didn't do just that.

To those folks, I offer this little scenario:

Elizabeta Baranovskaya bumped open the door to the roof and hobbled out on her crutches. It seemed to have taken forever to struggle up the stairs, and she was certain the hospital staff must have missed her by now; it wouldn’t be long before they came looking for her up here. She didn’t have much time.

The breeze toyed with her short blonde hair, cooling the sweaty scalp underneath. She took a deep breath, letting the perspiration dry while she studied the wispy clouds overhead. Coming up here always seemed to lift her cares. The view was beautiful, and the sunshine warmed her and eased the pain in her leg – a leg which still throbbed sometimes, even though it was no longer there.

She shook her head, remembering. When they’d told her, she’d reacted very badly. She’d said things that had made the staff worry she’d do something crazy. Liza was still far from accepting that she’d never dance again, but the brief thoughts she’d had of ending her life were done, at least for now.

She swung her crutches and hips forward in an alternating rhythm still strange to her, wincing at the discomfort of the rubber rests under her arms, until she stood at the edge of the roof overlooking the staff parking at the rear of the building. There was no wall or rail along this part, just a long strip of metal flashing perhaps ten centimeters wide overlapping the edge, still beaded with dew. She stayed just behind it and stared down into the lot four stories below. People looked so small, their faces unrecognizable, their errands and concerns a mystery. She could wish for such a detached perspective on her own life right now.

She stared down at her right leg –or rather, at the bandaged stump that ended just above the knee. If only they’d been able to save the joint, her chances of dancing again would have been so much better. Not onstage, that dream was finished; just for her own pleasure, and for the way it had of taking her outside herself. There had been hints from the doctors about advanced prosthetics not yet available to the general public, but they’d made no promises about being able to secure such a thing for a foreign patient. Artificial limbs available back home were about as much use to a ballet dancer as a wooden peg.

She would have liked to have someone to talk to, but she was separated from almost everyone she saw by the barrier of language. An interpreter accompanied the doctors who came to see her, but none of the staff she saw all day spoke Russian. One of the orderlies did, after a fashion, and they’d struck up a friendship. And once before the surgery, on this very roof, she’d met a strange and handsome man who spoke with an accent more Muscovite than her own, even after living there six years, and in gratitude she’d danced for him as well as she was still able. But most of her time was spent alone, surrounded by people she couldn’t talk to except through gestures. She’d had the oddest notion, as she’d climbed the stairs, that she might find him waiting for her up here, but of course the roof had been empty.

She would have to make her decision alone.

The town of San Lorenzo spread out before her, bigger, greener and more prosperous-looking than her hometown of Smolensk. There was no comparison to Moscow, of course; that city was in a class by itself. She would return there, she decided, as soon as the doctors here released her. What she would do after that was less clear. What sort of place could she find there if she couldn’t dance? She was too young to teach.

Or was she? As a sixth-year student, she’d often been tapped to assist the instructors in the less advanced classes. The newer students seemed more comfortable with her, since she was more their size, and learned easily from her. And she always felt a warm pleasure taking someone younger under her wing and teaching her things. Perhaps she could find a school which would accept her…

She could hear footsteps on the stairs, and voices: her attendants, come for her at last. God knew what they would think if they opened the door and saw her standing on the edge of the roof looking down. But suicide was the farthest thing from her mind now. I may never dance again, she thought, but I will walk. And I will teach. No one is going to tell me that all the struggles and sacrifices in my life have been for nothing. She put on a reassuring smile, and turned clumsily toward the door…

…and the rubber tip of the crutch skidded on wet metal and slid over the edge into empty space.

God damn it! Of course! Just stab me repeatedly in the feels why don't you?!

wow that's .... well i cant come up with the words to say how awesome that is TSM

Thescarredman wrote:She put on a reassuring smile, and turned clumsily toward the door…

…and the rubber tip of the crutch skidded on wet metal and slid over the edge into empty space.

Most hilarious thing I've read all day.

Nachtsider wrote:

Thescarredman wrote:She put on a reassuring smile, and turned clumsily toward the door……and the rubber tip of the crutch skidded on wet metal and slid over the edge into empty space.

Most hilarious thing I've read all day.

Ageed. Funny stuff Thescarredman.

Actually, fellas, I thought it was pretty tragic. A sixteen-year-old amputee resolving to get over her misfortune and get on with her life, only to have it stolen by a stupid mischance...

But then, I'm a Petra fan.

I laughed so hard!!! If that happened that would have been hilarious! XD

But she tried to kill herself, no other explanation seems plausible. This is nothing more than a fanfiction trying to make her suicide story an accident to give her more depth, instead of us viewing her as weak... which she is.

Also, Scarredman you brought up Henrietta and the fact that she probably would have committed suicide if she wasn't made into a cyborg. While that is true, she didn't have the chance to do so because she was picked up by the agency right after. Also she watched her entire family get slaughtered in front of her, then she was assaulted repeatedly thought the night. She's so young, I'm pretty sure her mind would have been shattered. Meanwhile Petra is still alive after her leg had to be taken off, or else she would have died. She's not grateful, she doesn't look for other options, or motivations to move on. Her suicide is not sad at all.

Thescarredman wrote:Actually, fellas, I thought it was pretty tragic. A sixteen-year-old amputee resolving to get over her misfortune and get on with her life, only to have it stolen by a stupid mischance...

But then, I'm a Petra fan.

It's called dark humour, bro. Mileages vary.

Triela wrote:But she tried to kill herself, no other explanation seems plausible.

I think it's decidely implausible, and always did. It never sat right with me that so disciplined a young woman would toss herself off a building. She went to Italy believing she only had a fifty-fifty chance; she said so. She warned her 'boyfriend' not to get his hopes up. She must have had some plans for a life beyond dancing, however vague. And if Liza was such a weakling, where did Petra get her headstrong nature from?



Ehhh. People here have such polarized opinions about this pair. I suppose it's why Petra has the longest thread of all the canon cyborgs.

Thescarredman wrote:I think it's decidely implausible, and always did. It never sat right with me that so disciplined a young woman would toss herself off a building. She went to Italy believing she only had a fifty-fifty chance; she said so. She warned her 'boyfriend' not to get his hopes up. She must have had some plans for a life beyond dancing, however vague. And if Liza was such a weakling, where did Petra get her headstrong nature from?.

Even the most disciplined, logical people can become utterly irrational when thrown for a loop, especially with regards to issues concerning their own mortality.

As for the bit about Petra's headstrong nature contrasting with Liz's apparent weakness, I like to think that the conditioning, mind-altering substance that it is, is capable of completely altering a subject's personality, or awakening vestigial personality traits that normally remain buried and unused.

Nachtsider wrote:Even the most disciplined, logical people can become utterly irrational when thrown for a loop, especially with regards to issues concerning their own mortality.

As for the bit about Petra's headstrong nature contrasting with Liz's apparent weakness, I like to think that the conditioning, mind-altering substance that it is, is capable of completely altering a subject's personality, or awakening vestigial personality traits that normally remain buried and unused.

This.

She was just a kid whose entire universe was about dancing. At her age, it’s perfectly understandable that losing that ability would cause her to have a mental breakdown. Back-up plans and alternative avenues tend to be adult attributes, not those of obsessive teenagers. You also have to keep in mind that Petra came from a financially strapped family, and as such, probably felt their hopes and dreams rested squarely on her shoulders. That’s a lot of pressure for anyone to be under.

Danjo3 wrote:

Nachtsider wrote:Even the most disciplined, logical people can become utterly irrational when thrown for a loop, especially with regards to issues concerning their own mortality.

As for the bit about Petra's headstrong nature contrasting with Liz's apparent weakness, I like to think that the conditioning, mind-altering substance that it is, is capable of completely altering a subject's personality, or awakening vestigial personality traits that normally remain buried and unused.

This.

She was just a kid whose entire universe was about dancing. At her age, it’s perfectly understandable that losing that ability would cause her to have a mental breakdown. Back-up plans and alternative avenues tend to be adult attributes, not those of obsessive teenagers. You also have to keep in mind that Petra came from a financially strapped family, and as such, probably felt their hopes and dreams rested squarely on her shoulders. That’s a lot of pressure for anyone to be under.

Implausibility of the scenario aside, Thescarredman's imagery is intense and illustrates extremely well the situation that Elizabeta was in after the surgery. The stream-of-consciousness style of exposition, while not extremely emblematic of that technique, also helps emphasize the mindset Elizabeta is in, given the interpretation TSM is going with.

As a consequence, the continuation of the story as it continues onward paints an extremely good image of the variety of emotions that Elizabeta is experiencing as she stands on the roof where she met Alessandro, thinking about the future and what she can do with what she has left. Yes, teenagers have a tendency to be emotional and yes, the most likely occurrence is that Elizabeta has a breakdown and jumps, but the point is not the total level of plausibility, but rather that maybe, just maybe, if she was extremely lucky and the nurses on hand had strapped her down, or maybe if that one attendant had shared one extra story about another patient, or perhaps even if just one caring touch had broken through the haze of agony and despair, Elizabeta would not have taken her own life.

And so instead of dying, she lives, and takes stock of her situation, and comes to terms with it. The last emotion we get is a sense of hope for the future. It is a feeling that while things have gotten very bad, that doesn't mean that everything has been lost. Unimaginable though it may be, the life she has now is still HER life, and it would be a waste to just throw it away. Life is precious, Elizabeta decides, and she must do her best to extract as much fulfillment as she can from what she has left and not pine for that which she has lost.

Then she dies.

It would be unwise, I feel, to ignore the care with which Thescarredman has crafted this snippet. It is an intensely emotional piece that demonstrates a real empathy with the character he is writing and a deep, or at least deeper, understanding of why we humans get up every morning and keep going. The fact that he has interpreted a character differently is minor, indeed irrelevant, in comparison to what he DOES with that interpretation.

No one is dissing Thescarredman’s writing, it just that nothing in canon suggests it might have been a possibility.

Danjo3 wrote:No one is dissing Thescarredman’s writing, it just that nothing in canon suggests it might have been a possibility.

Ah, sorry if I sounded a bit upset. What I mean to say is that yeah, the canon suggests that it's impossible, but it also doesn't say that it's impossible, and I've come across too many people in real life and on the internet who refuse to consider a literary work due to their preconceptions about the subject matter.

I know that I suffer from the same prejudices, and I try to overcome them, and it really makes me upset when people refuse to try and do the same for the sake of their comfortable world. It's probably become something of a kneejerk reaction, so I apologize if I come across that way.



Unrelated: is my current signature (as of Mon 4 Mar 2013) too long?

You have nothing to apologize for El Conservatore, you were just giving your opinion.

I'm sure nobody here is attacking me or, aside from questioning my research, criticizing my writing. This is a discussion forum, and we're discussing. Triela and Nacht and Danjo have long-standing opinions on this subject that can be read in the very first pages of this thread. I presented an alternative to the common assumptions about Elizabeta's death that I believe are supported by canon and my observations of the characters; I expressed my idea in a format I'm comfortable with - a short fic. I'm glad of every response to it, and would like to hear more, especially if someone can point out an event in the manga that clearly shows I'm wrong. I'd also like to see some of the newcomers weigh in on this issue.



"See, you think we're arguin, and I think we're finally talkin."

lol prolly the only time Petra s seems to be acceptable to my eyes (aside from her New Trino Battle attire)

Great pic, Yuki. Did you draw it? It's very different from your usual style.

Thescarredman wrote:Great pic, Yuki. Did you draw it? It's very different from your usual style.

It's not mine,Courtesy of Aida Yuu's artwork