beatrice struggle

well i dont know what this guy think, but they shot a little girl with 50 cal, is that too (over)thinkin, just use ssg 69, well they died, but thumbs up for beatrice,she still breathing after the 1 and second impact(sorry for beatrice fan for showing this comic (pict from mangafox.com)

Actually it was a 20mm anti-aircraft round.

^^ nope...Mechem NTW-20/14 mm (means can use 2 kinds barrel, 20mm standart or 14mm russia) made in South Africa, is an anti material sniper riffle

Dante knew he was up against something far tougher than a normal human, so he wanted to be prepared. An SSG 69 wouldn't have stopped Bea, much less killed her. A .50 cal would have done more damage, but still wouldn't have the stopping power of an NTW. Dante wanted to take her down for good. And yes, I agree it was very impressive Bea could stand, much less throw a huge bomb, in that condition.

Kiara wrote:^^ nope...Mechem NTW-20/14 mm (means can use 2 kinds barrel, 20mm standart or 14mm russia) made in South Africa, is an anti material sniper riffle

well the big point is"theyre insaneee!!!!!" dnt care with all the round but heir just out of limit ;(

KodokuRyuu wrote:Dante knew he was up against something far tougher than a normal human, so he wanted to be prepared. An SSG 69 wouldn't have stopped Bea, much less killed her. A .50 cal would have done more damage, but still wouldn't have the stopping power of an NTW. Dante wanted to take her down for good. And yes, I agree it was very impressive Bea could stand, much less throw a huge bomb, in that condition.

,
impress, thumbs up, well at least she carried a missile by her own" that proof that ssg 69 just a pinch for them

Beatrice rocks!

well as proof of their power, look even triela celebrate worldcup 2010 with grenade launcher and hit it with her head as like goalkeeper(wow, i wonder if my head just hitted by it :{

Heh. A lot of 40mm grenade launcher grenades have to travel thirty meters IIRC or else they won`t arm for safety reasons. So the fact that it bounced off her without exploding isn`t entirely unrealistic. (Though if that`s the round exploding right afterwards, then it`s perhaps a bit more problematic.)

As for the hit itself, 40mm grenade launchers are pretty low velocity weapons. They can fire so called baton rounds for riot control. Of course, a 40mm grenade is fairly hard, which I`m not sure those baton rounds are.

Maybe the guy should have stuck to 5.56mm fire in that situation. Triela actually was pretty badly affected by the torso hit she took from an assault rifle back in volume seven. If he could manage multiple torso hits he might have done some serious damage.

That's firepower

After that and the explosion, only the beatrice's shoes and weapons were found.
I wonder what happened to the rest of her.

Maybe Dante ate it.

Piero wrote:Maybe the guy should have stuck to 5.56mm fire in that situation. Triela actually was pretty badly affected by the torso hit she took from an assault rifle back in volume seven. If he could manage multiple torso hits he might have done some serious damage.

The round(s) she took in the gut knocked her on her ass and hurt, but she was still fully combat effective and able to dispatch the attackers. I expect her chest is even more armored, and it appears Dante expected the same.

Triela's thoughts after getting shot in Volume Seven included "Such a shot is really something..." which suggests a single hit; the drawing of her getting shot also suggested this. Furthermore, she specifically noted that she felt "very dizzy" afterwards. I personally got the impression she felt a need to end the fight quickly before her condition deteriorated further. Note too that she was extremely determined to protect the prosecutor in that scene. Really determined people have been noted to keep fighting for some time after taking fatal wounds, so the idea that someone could push through a serious one temporarily isn't all that far fetched.

So basically, while the guy with that rifle was pretty much doomed due to the difficulty of achieving immediate incapacitation of a cyborg, I think he could have managed to do some serious damage if he'd managed to achieve multiple hits with it.

ebitempura966 wrote:

Kiara wrote:^^ nope...Mechem NTW-20/14 mm (means can use 2 kinds barrel, 20mm standart or 14mm russia) made in South Africa, is an anti material sniper riffle

well the big point is"theyre insaneee!!!!!" dnt care with all the round but heir just out of limit ;(

yes, I see................the artificial girl couldn't killed with standart assault riffle..but their body doesn't resist with anti material riffle

Kiara wrote:

ebitempura966 wrote:

Kiara wrote:^^ nope...Mechem NTW-20/14 mm (means can use 2 kinds barrel, 20mm standart or 14mm russia) made in South Africa, is an anti material sniper riffle

well the big point is"theyre insaneee!!!!!" dnt care with all the round but heir just out of limit ;(

yes, I see................the artificial girl couldn't killed with standart assault riffle..but their body doesn't resist with anti material riffle

that's scarry XD

ebitempura966 wrote:

Kiara wrote:

ebitempura966 wrote:

Kiara wrote:^^ nope...Mechem NTW-20/14 mm (means can use 2 kinds barrel, 20mm standart or 14mm russia) made in South Africa, is an anti material sniper riffle

well the big point is"theyre insaneee!!!!!" dnt care with all the round but heir just out of limit ;(

yes, I see................the artificial girl couldn't killed with standart assault riffle..but their body doesn't resist with anti material riffle

that's scarry XD

What can? These weapons are overkill when used on person, and built to take down a metal covered machine (ie: an airplane). It does maximum damage to the intended target (ie: again- an airplane) in hopes of taking it down. A cyborg, though harder than a human, is still softer than an airplane. It is still a living being. True, most small arms might not be able to taken them down but I'm sure that going up a notch or two on weapons levels, one can take be taken down with a slightly stronger weapon.

Outright power aside; the weapon used to kill Beatrice also had the advantage of outrageous range, and I think that's the primary reason Dante was using it.

Giacomo wanted to keep his position secret until the last possible moment, and his plan worked...the combined SISDE forces invested almost all their forces in an attack on the Campanile and Dante got away.

Professor Voodoo wrote:Outright power aside; the weapon used to kill Beatrice also had the advantage of outrageous range, and I think that's the primary reason Dante was using it.

Giacomo wanted to keep his position secret until the last possible moment, and his plan worked...the combined SISDE forces invested almost all their forces in an attack on the Campanile and Dante got away.

well id like to try m82a1 berreta 12 mm, it might hurt too, btw how in earth they got such a thing ?

^^ black market?? perhaps....

ebitempura966 wrote:

Professor Voodoo wrote:Outright power aside; the weapon used to kill Beatrice also had the advantage of outrageous range, and I think that's the primary reason Dante was using it.

Giacomo wanted to keep his position secret until the last possible moment, and his plan worked...the combined SISDE forces invested almost all their forces in an attack on the Campanile and Dante got away.

well id like to try m82a1 berreta 12 mm, it might hurt too, btw how in earth they got such a thing ?

I doubt the Barret 12mm has a 6KM range.
Dante needed to be far away as possible while still being able to hit the target; it was an anti-aircraft gun! The Barret .50 Cal BMG M82 and now the current the M107 only have a 1+KM range. It cold kill a cyborg, anything beyond your typical handgun/rifle, would. But for the same effect, a shotgun 12 or 10 gauge slug would also kill a cyborg.

BTW, 12mm is too small to fit the Barret .50Cal. 13mm a bit too big. An automotive mechanic secret is using a 13mm wrench socket if you cant find a 1/2 inch one, and visa-versa. They are so close but 13mm is just a tad larger than a 1/2 inch.

nope...heavy sniper riffle cal 12mm only has effective range in 2km and max range 3 km...different case if you use cal 20 mm (like NTW) you can kill your enemy in 4-5km

The Denel NTW-20 has significant range, but it's not really intended for ranges way beyond what a .50 can do. The NTW-20's larger calibre is primarily for the purpose of increasing on target effectiveness. Effective range is listed as 1800 meters for the 20x82mm version of the weapon and 2300 meters for the 14.5x115mm version of the weapon. I'm not sure what the manufacturer's effective range of the 20x110mm version, but I doubt it's signficantly in excess of those figures.

Of course, effective range is kind of a nebulous concept since different people define it differently. It's also worth noting that the effective range of a M24 sniper rifle is consider 800 meters, but there's a recorded case of one successfully being used at 1250 meters.

That being said, I believe there was someone on this board a while back who had some sniper rifle experience who analysed the conditions of the shot Dante made and basically concluded that it would be pretty much impossible to make in real life (four kilometer range and a probability of crosswinds over the water).

That would be LoC.

And again, as I always stated, its not what the gun can do, its the idiot behind the trigger. The record for any snipe known is 2,475 m (2,707 yd). According to the wiki-article the bullet have "dropped 120.95 m (4,762 in)"... this means 2 things, 1) he was higher up than his intended targets and 2)that bullet would have been useless - hitting the ground - if it were not for some tricky calculations on his end which could have only come from daily weapons practice with his rifle. This applies to all rifles and guns. Without the fancy math and the practice, a Barret .50 Cal BGM has a range of about 1.2KM as a straight line range of firing. Compensate for wind, gravity, etc, and you can easily double the range.

Strange things have happened in times of war. A lot of it not reproducible by M5 and the ppl at MythBusters.

indonesian heavy sniper riffle "Pindad SPR-2" cal 12.7mm has max range 3 km in normal condition (I get this info from Angkasa Special ed magazine)

Kiara wrote:indonesian heavy sniper riffle "Pindad SPR-2" cal 12.7mm has max range 3 km in normal condition (I get this info from Angkasa Special ed magazine)

it may fire a round that far but 9 times out of 10 it won't hit what you are aiming at at that range

wikipedia wrote:The longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) and was achieved by CoH Craig Harrison, a sniper from the Household Cavalry of the British Army. It was accomplished in an engagement in November 2009 in which two stationary Taliban machine gunners were killed south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan with two consecutive shots by CoH Harrison using an Accuracy International L115A3 Long Range Rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum

What good is long range gun if you cant hit the target?

ElfenMagix wrote:What good is long range gun if you cant hit the target?

Bragging rights !

you would have to be real lucky to hit a moving target at 3km ,the Corporal mentioned earlier managed it twice on a pair of stationary targets at 2.5 km and thats a world record !

Awinnell wrote:

ElfenMagix wrote:What good is long range gun if you cant hit the target?

Bragging rights ! you would have to be real lucky to hit a moving target at 3km ,the Corporal mentioned earlier managed it twice on a pair of stationary targets at 2.5 km and thats a world record !

Yeah, but big deal. He did it in a professional government sanctioned role. He will have bragging rights for it. So did the WWI & WWII fighter pilots when they shot down the other side's planes!

Seriously, Outside of a professional or government sanctioned role, this is not going to happen. They do not have the manpower, the manhours and the materials to constantly train for this. If they can hit a barn at 500m/yds, then they got something! Terrorist groups are more close range and close quarter combat fighting techniques then their government sanctioned counterparts. While they will go for weapons that they would find and spray and pray their way across their battle fields, government sanctioned soldiers wont. While they take on drugs and alcohol to make themselves braver for a suicide mission, government sanctioned will fight to live to fight another day. There are no bragging rights for the terrorists. What little there are are for their specialists- the bomb makers they protect and their leaders who are too chicken to show their faces in public.

Bragging rights dont mean Jack shit, and in the case of the colonel- now that his info is public knowledge, he has been taken out of mission service and put into training service so that such the asset he has will not be destroyed in the field in combat and his knowledge passed down to the next generation of soldiers.

the bragging rights thing does apply to people who buy guns in general ,including military procurement officers,like i said he only managed such a long range shot because they were stationary,and thats with government training,though to be honest with the cost reductions in the British army he's probably spent a lot of time dry firing and shouting bang !,

I won't deny that the skill of the shooter is a hugely important factor. Without a shooter who is up to the task of using it having the most accurate rifle in the world means nothing. However, skill can only take a person so far too. Long range sniping is about predicting where a bullet will end up, and if the sniper's weapon doesn't shoot consistently enough for the sniper to predict where the shots will end up at long range then even the most skilled sniper will be relying on luck.

Ammunition plays a hugely important role too. A McMillan TAC-50 like the one that was used to set the previous world record for the longest range sniper kill can fire the same .50 ammunition as an M-2 machine gun, but for extreme range sniping high quality match grade ammunition is basically a necessity because standard .50 machine gun ammunition isn't built to achieve the level of consistency needed.

Now regarding Dante's shot... it's theoretically possible but so unlikely that relying on being able to make such a shot would be insane in real life. Four kilometers is over twice the 1800 meters that is listed as the effective range of the NTW-20 in 20x82mm. At that distance, it would take over five seconds for the round to reach it's target (anyone remember if Beatrice was moving? Keep in mind Dante had to shoot through a window in the bell tower!). There's also the fact that the shot would likely be subject to winds as it passed over water -the current longest range firearms kill at 2475 meters was said to be made under basically ideal conditions (so no strong winds. Note that under the right wind conditions, even a 800 meter shot can be very difficult to pull off). Put all of it together and the idea of anyone being able to pull of such a shot without relying on sheer luck becomes unlikely.

Plus while I can see Dante being able to get a hold of a NTW-20 I have to wonder where he got the training to use one at long range. As has previously been noted in this thread, long range sniper training isn't something someone can get just anywhere.

In all honesty, I can live with Yui doing something that's not very unrealistic there, I'm just pointing out that it's not very realistic.

The guy knows people with access to a SUBMARINE.

He also evidently can call up a US Special Ops spec Blackhawk to whisk him out of harm's way.

Getting an NTW-20 and the training to effectively use it sound rather trivial to me...

Kiskaloo wrote:The guy knows people with access to a SUBMARINE.

He also evidently can call up a US Special Ops spec Blackhawk to whisk him out of harm's way.

Getting an NTW-20 and the training to effectively use it sound rather trivial to me...

Point I guess.

I kind of like Dante for being rabid and vicious and managing to be a colossal threat because he breaks all the rules, but I do kind of wish that Yu could write him without having him use resources that strain credibility.

On the flip side, he is facing an opponent - the SWA - which has resources that seriously strain credibility.

Every super hero needs a super villain as a foil if you want to make the story interesting.

Piero wrote:I won't deny that the skill of the shooter is a hugely important factor. Without a shooter who is up to the task of using it having the most accurate rifle in the world means nothing. However, skill can only take a person so far too. Long range sniping is about predicting where a bullet will end up, and if the sniper's weapon doesn't shoot consistently enough for the sniper to predict where the shots will end up at long range then even the most skilled sniper will be relying on luck.

Ammunition plays a hugely important role too. A McMillan TAC-50 like the one that was used to set the previous world record for the longest range sniper kill can fire the same .50 ammunition as an M-2 machine gun, but for extreme range sniping high quality match grade ammunition is basically a necessity because standard .50 machine gun ammunition isn't built to achieve the level of consistency needed.

Now regarding Dante's shot... it's theoretically possible but so unlikely that relying on being able to make such a shot would be insane in real life. Four kilometers is over twice the 1800 meters that is listed as the effective range of the NTW-20 in 20x82mm. At that distance, it would take over five seconds for the round to reach it's target (anyone remember if Beatrice was moving? Keep in mind Dante had to shoot through a window in the bell tower!). There's also the fact that the shot would likely be subject to winds as it passed over water -the current longest range firearms kill at 2475 meters was said to be made under basically ideal conditions (so no strong winds. Note that under the right wind conditions, even a 800 meter shot can be very difficult to pull off). Put all of it together and the idea of anyone being able to pull of such a shot without relying on sheer luck becomes unlikely.

Plus while I can see Dante being able to get a hold of a NTW-20 I have to wonder where he got the training to use one at long range. As has previously been noted in this thread, long range sniper training isn't something someone can get just anywhere.

In all honesty, I can live with Yui doing something that's not very unrealistic there, I'm just pointing out that it's not very realistic.

The gun itself is not accurate. So it can throw a projectile some 2.5 - 5kms? If it were not for the science of ballistics, and the study of the actual gun in its research and development phase, 99% of all shooters out there would be guessing where to place their shots and missing all the time by a wide margin. The gun can shoot a projectile down a given path, but it the shooter who knows how to shoot said gun that knows how to place projectiles shot by said gun and hit targets.

Piero, I agree with you on Yu doing a few deus ex machina within this story line. But from the looks of it, Beatrice was unlucky in that she was walking directly within the path of the shooter's rifle muzzle. How else would she have been hit dead on square in the chest? Everything else is Yu escaping reality to make the story so.

Kiskaloo wrote:The guy knows people with access to a SUBMARINE.

He also evidently can call up a US Special Ops spec Blackhawk to whisk him out of harm's way.

Getting an NTW-20 and the training to effectively use it sound rather trivial to me...

Calling the US Special Ops is not a problem IF AND ONLY IF John Doe was still an active CIA agent at the time. The problem lies in are these Special Ops Agents being used legit and were played into being used for the call or are they in cahoots like John Doe was?

Piero wrote:I kind of like Dante for being rabid and vicious and managing to be a colossal threat because he breaks all the rules, but I do kind of wish that Yu could write him without having him use resources that strain credibility.

Yu lost credibility a long time ago with me.

Awinnell wrote:

Kiara wrote:indonesian heavy sniper riffle "Pindad SPR-2" cal 12.7mm has max range 3 km in normal condition (I get this info from Angkasa Special ed magazine)

it may fire a round that far but 9 times out of 10 it won't hit what you are aiming at at that range

wikipedia wrote:The longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) and was achieved by CoH Craig Harrison, a sniper from the Household Cavalry of the British Army. It was accomplished in an engagement in November 2009 in which two stationary Taliban machine gunners were killed south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan with two consecutive shots by CoH Harrison using an Accuracy International L115A3 Long Range Rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum

hmm...so thats it...thank's