[TV Show] Sniper: Inside the Crosshairs

On Sunday night The History Channel showed a two-hour documentary on snipers, covering some of the greatest snipes of Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and also went into the science of ballistics and long-range shooting.

I'm thinking of making Kara 2.0 a sniper, but she certainly won't be up to the level of a military sniper based on what I learned.

The show probably repeats during the week.

It was a good show. had me staying up though I wanted to sleep.

Is it on youtube? I don't have History Channel

Kiskaloo wrote:I'm thinking of making Kara 2.0 a sniper, but she certainly won't be up to the level of a military sniper based on what I learned.

It's ok Kisk, just do what I did with my character. Give her a semi-auto long range rifle, and just assume that if her first shot doesn't do it, superhuman trigger speed and visual acuity will put the next 9-10 bullets into the target.

Now whether or not that's considered "sniping" is arguable, but I'm not one to worry about such things.

rusty-spring wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:I'm thinking of making Kara 2.0 a sniper, but she certainly won't be up to the level of a military sniper based on what I learned.

It's ok Kisk, just do what I did with my character. Give her a semi-auto long range rifle, and just assume that if her first shot doesn't do it, superhuman trigger speed and visual acuity will put the next 9-10 bullets into the target.

Now whether or not that's considered "sniping" is arguable, but I'm not one to worry about such things.

"One magazine - one kill."

Kiskaloo wrote:"One magazine - one kill."

Isn't that the Artillery's motto?

Kiskaloo wrote:"One magazine - one kill."

"If we weren't suppose to use more than one, then why do they manufacture extras?"

I suppose that beats the buddy system the Soviets used against the Nazi's: "First man takes the rifle, second man takes the bullets. when the first man is killed, the second man takes the rifle".

I've glanced through the TC 23-14 "Sniper Training and Employment" handbook. As most of the real information is taught on the range by proven snipers, the book mainly covers methods of camo and preparing positions, gauging distances and winds, the details of the sniper weapons systems, and other "book" info. Basically, everything you would be tested on except your marksmanship.

I apply a little of this into Jamie. In Venice she scouts the target and draws up a terrain map of the target area, as well as does her distance ballistics calculations. Her favorite shooting position is prone with her left fist under the stock, for that minute adjustment a gentle squeeze gives.

It's good info for almost any rifle shooter, and is usually available in surplus stores.

I figure Kara would mostly use the "ambush method" (she picks a point and waits for the target to walk into it) rather than the "tracking method" where she'd actively track the target to engage them.

Her snipes would be like the one Jose and Henrietta did in the anime - a target too protected to engage directly (without significant collateral damage), but not much of a challenge, so with her limited skillset, she can successfully do it.

No "Miracle Shots" or "16 rounds; 16 kills; 30 seconds" here. Just basic marksmanship with a quality weapon (FN Special Police Rifle).

MikhailN wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:"One magazine - one kill."

Isn't that the Artillery's motto?

only if you're talking about a battalion of troops...

I remember seeing on the Military Channel last summer how the British Snipers train. As someone stated above, Too much emphasis on details and not enough on actual sniping until the end of the training. What bothers me is that some of these weapons have a KM+ range. Why must they hide if they are out of range for most conventional weapons, and out of sight for most people?

Though Fernando will/has put Rachel and maybe Francesca through sniper training and weapons maintenance programs, he would not want them to be snipers because he would not want his girls to consciously go selectively kill people. It is better for him if they killed their targets in battle.

ElfenMagix wrote:I remember seeing on the Military Channel last summer how the British Snipers train. As someone stated above, Too much emphasis on details and not enough on actual sniping until the end of the training. What bothers me is that some of these weapons have a KM+ range. Why must they hide if they are out of range for most conventional weapons, and out of sight for most people?

I'm assuming that the snipers featured were military snipers, possibly from the Royal Marines

The military sniper's primary duty is that of observation and for that, fieldcraft is of utmost importance. Besides, even if the weapons are highly accurized and zeroed, shots beyond 500m are quite difficult under battlefield conditions because of many unknowns e.g. windage, light mirage, heck even transporting the rifle can affect accuracy because the scope can get knocked about. FYI the KM+ range is a claim by the manufacturer, assuming ideal conditions like good shooter, good ammo, no wind etc.

However, there is a distinction between police snipers and military snipers. For police snipers, the training emphasises more on shooting accuracy because of the conditions that they operate under. Concealment in an urban setting is basically hiding in the shadows and besides, sometimes the snipers will purposely make themselves visible to the criminal as a method of intimidation. However, their training emphasises on delivering extremely accurate shots at relatively close ranges and engaging multiple targets and that's one major difference between military and police snipers. Also, gun manufacturers make their sniper rifles specially for police or military purposes. You're not expected to drag a H&K PSG1 miles behind enemy lines in a drag bag, and its military counterpart MSG90 is lighter, cheaper, more rugged but less accurate.

What MikhailN said. The USMC refers to their school as the "Scout Sniper School" to reflect the importance of reconnaissance. It's also why US military snipers normally operate in pairs - the sniper and an observer.

Most snipes are well under 1000 meters. It's why the 1.2km shot that one US sniper took with his M40 in Iraq is considered the "miracle shot" because it was 50% beyond the effective range for the round (and is the longest confirmed kill for a 7.62x51mm NATO round).

Good to know these things. But in my mind, the GsG would be operating more like police and less than military on sniper actions. Further more they would use weapons more appropriate to target specs and urban settings. a .50 BMG would be more likely to be used here than in the battle fields of Iraq; though I would speculate that the arm forces should use such specialty weapons as part of their tactical options.

ElfenMagix wrote:Good to know these things. But in my mind, the GsG would be operating more like police and less than military on sniper actions.

Agreed.

I was planning to have Kara 2.0 trained by military snipers, but having seen this episode, she's going to learn from the Polizia di Stato.

Kiskaloo wrote:Most snipes are well under 1000 meters. It's why the 1.2km shot that one US sniper took with his M40 in Iraq is considered the "miracle shot" because it was 50% beyond the effective range for the round (and is the longest confirmed kill for a 7.62x51mm NATO round).

This is true, but I was thinking of weapons systems like the M82/M107/Barret .50 cal which does have an approximate 1KM range. According to Wikipedia, it has a 1.5km effective range.

ElfenMagix wrote:

Kiskaloo wrote:Most snipes are well under 1000 meters. It's why the 1.2km shot that one US sniper took with his M40 in Iraq is considered the "miracle shot" because it was 50% beyond the effective range for the round (and is the longest confirmed kill for a 7.62x51mm NATO round).

This is true, but I was thinking of weapons systems like the M82/M107/Barret .50 cal which does have an approximate 1KM range. According to Wikipedia, it has a 1.5km effective range.

Ah yes the .50 Barret M82. An anti-material rifle that was adopted as a sniper rifle. Some snipers use it because the .50 BMG has more kinetic energy than the 7.62mm NATO or .308 Winchester or whatever smaller calibre that they use. This means that they can reach out to targets that were previously untouchable.

However the 1km number is a number based off calculations and assumes ideal conditions, just like how the CheyTac Intervention claims that it can produce sub-MoA groupings at up to 2275m or the DSR1 claims that it can produce groups below 0.2 MoA. Under field conditions, the poor chap is struggling to cope with all the factors and most of these are rough estimates (especially so if the target is moving, there's wind, heat and light mirage, uneven terrain etc) so this 1km distance is rarely reached, even with the .50 M82. Note that the further the range, the longer the round stays in the air and hence is more affected by atmospheric effects like wind

Yes, but because of the size and weight, that is not a very common rifle on the battlefield. It's more designed to engage targets hiding behind barriers (using the Raufoss Mk 211 round). Yes, CF Corporal Furlong's 2.4km shot with his TAC-50 was amazing, but it's going to be the exception, not the rule.

.338 Lapua is gaining interest since it has excellent range, but the weapons that fire it (Barrett M98/PGM 338) are not the beasts that the .50BMG rifles are.

Good to see where this is going.

In the case of my OCs, we use the:
Berret BMGs (M107) for targets over 500m or when in vehicles and behind buildings.
Garand M1 for targets 100 - 400m
and the M16 for targets 50 - 150m (depending if they are carrying the M1 or not, and I doubt that when carrying one they would not carry the other).

But again, Fernando's girls will would not be much sniping even though they are trained to do so. These are not the types of mission that he would allow them to do or he would go for. In her day, Francesca was a sniper, though much of it was with a camera and not a rifle, for intell gathering purposes. In total she may have sniped a target's head off many once or twice, with a lot of range practice before hand under Felix's care.

ElfenMagix wrote:Good to see where this is going.

In the case of my OCs, we use the:
Berret BMGs (M107) for targets over 500m or when in vehicles and behind buildings.
Garand M1 for targets 100 - 400m
and the M16 for targets 50 - 150m (depending if they are carrying the M1 or not, and I doubt that when carrying one they would not carry the other).

M1 Garand is quite accurate, but it's seriously not very good for sniping for one reason - it ejects the clip after the last round is fired off with a very audible sound. That's suicidal in a sniper duel and even when engaging less reactive targets, that metallic ping is a signal that your opponents have a few seconds to move.

Of course, if you have a second shooter, then the 'ping' becomes a bait to make everyone think that the sniper is out of ammo and it's safe to move. That's when the second shooter comes in.

That has been an old W2 technique used on many occasions.
Another is throwing an empty clip as hard as one can to make it look like a lone sniper is elsewhere or dropping an empty clip to make them think that the sniper is (prematurely) out of ammo. Both have also worked well.

In police-like situations that the SWA would be used in, this would not be the case as the targets would be few to just a hand full and at least surrounded by law enforcement agents. If its just taking down a single target or two, like the Elsa/Henrietta assassination of the police chief, one or two shots fired would be the max. And for a cyborg, they can catch the empty clip before it hits the ground making its 'ping' sound a one time thing. Most people in public, especially in a crowd would be pointing everywhere as to where they believe they had heard something.

I was under the impression that the Barret M82's accuracy was limited by the number of moving parts it had (limited being a relative term when you're talking about these kinds of weapons). As noted previously, it's original purpose was anti-material work.

On the other hand, it can apparently shoot sub-MOA while the Accuracy International AS-50, a newer .50 BMG semi-auto, only claims under 1.5 MOA. Although I'm questioning whether the AS-50's MOA figure is deceptive somehow, given that plenty of 7.62mm rifles can supposedly shoot groups well under 1 MOA, and that thing comes from a company known for producing some of the most accurate production sniper rifles in the world (albeit those other rifles are bolt actions).

Mikhail, I don't suppose you could tell me how much I should be impressed by this thing once all the TV program dramatising is stripped away?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VXj9boRa1c

Also, has anyone here ever stumbled across the price tags for some of these rifles? I know the SWA has a huge budget, but I suspect even for them a request for a rifle with a MSRP of $14,000 isn't taken lightly.

They bought a Walther WA2000 which listed for up to USD12,000 so a USD9,000 M82A1 would probably be approved. I suppose they could always choose the M82A2 since it's only USD6000. A PSG1 would run you north of USD15,000 today if someone was willing to part with it.

You can buy a PGM 338 for USD11,000 and it's bigger brother (the Hecate II) is probably around USD 15,000, which is what the AS50 goes for.

Piero wrote:I was under the impression that the Barret M82's accuracy was limited by the number of moving parts it had (limited being a relative term when you're talking about these kinds of weapons). As noted previously, it's original purpose was anti-material work.

On the other hand, it can apparently shoot sub-MOA while the Accuracy International AS-50, a newer .50 BMG semi-auto, only claims under 1.5 MOA. Although I'm questioning whether the AS-50's MOA figure is deceptive somehow, given that plenty of 7.62mm rifles can supposedly shoot groups well under 1 MOA, and that thing comes from a company known for producing some of the most accurate production sniper rifles in the world (albeit those other rifles are bolt actions).

Mikhail, I don't suppose you could tell me how much I should be impressed by this thing once all the TV program dramatising is stripped away?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VXj9boRa1c

Also, has anyone here ever stumbled across the price tags for some of these rifles? I know the SWA has a huge budget, but I suspect even for them a request for a rifle with a MSRP of $14,000 isn't taken lightly.

You know, I've always wondered where in the world they got those MOA numbers. Did they fire from a clamp? Under what conditions?

First up, this gun is experimental (probably still is). Hardly anyone has fired it and those who have probably have also taken an oath of secrecy (though I suspect DEVGRU has their hands on it).

Second, with what information I have, I'd say that there are other guns out there that can do the same thing this one does. For anti-material roles, just about any .50 rifle can be used. For precision, I'd say that the TAC50 did a good job. Could it be that Accuracy International is trying to break into the .50 sniper rifle market with this?

But this video does show one huge problem that gun-makers face when dealing with .50 rounds. The kinetic energy of the round is so large that it causes a lot of stress on the gun. That's why you can see the barrel and scope wobbling about when he shoots it.

Mikhail: Accuracy International already has a .50 BMG rifle on the market in the AW-50. The AS-50 is them trying to do a .50 semi auto.

Kiskaloo: Related to what I just mentioned to Mikhail, MSRP $14,000 is the AW-50 bolt action. I haven't found a price for the AS-50 semi auto. I gather sales of the AS-50 are more restricted.

Where did you get the figure for the WA-2000? The only prices I've ever found for that were the US collector's market prices, which are inflated by the fact that there were only fifteen imported to the US (though Europe isn't exactly awash in them either, given that the total production run was what, less than two hundred?) The PSG-1 ought to be fine as long as it's the A1 version -the A1 version is still listed by HK, so collector's market pricing shouldn't be an issue. That being said, I'm under the impression a new PSG-1A1 may not necessarily be much under $15,000. (One site listed $9000 for the PSG-1, though that refered to the older pre-A1 version, so it's probably dated.) I believe PSG-1s come with a scope though, where other rifles don't. Something to consider.

On another note, apparently SAKO TRG rifles can be significantly less expensive than their Accuracy International counterparts (and SAKO is now owned by Beretta). They don't seem to have a .50 BMG model on the market though.

Piero wrote:Kiskaloo: Where did you get the figure for the WA-2000?

Wikipedia notes that the MSRP was USD9000 to USD12500 in 1988 for the base rifle.

The show sounds good but unfortunately I missed the broadcasts of this show. I have to wait till it pops up on the net to watch it.

Speaking of sniper stuff, have you all seen a film called Smokin' Aces? It's got one of the best sniper sequences I've ever seen, where a girl opens up on a Las Vegas hotel room with a .50 caliber.

Altogether the film is a pretty enteratining bit of brain candy, but that sniper scene is worth the price of rental by itself.

and the motto of one shot one kill.......umm negative, sniper also worth as vehicle stopper, neutralizer(shoot enemy leg and capture it )and ive told this thing by my English teacher that he is ex-marine and he stopped transport truck by using the 12.55 mm sniper, and it stopped

Going back to the M1 Garand.

That pinging sound when the clip ejects, though quite loud when ejected, is only audible for a short range. During WWII, a lot of combat done with this gun was less than 25 yards away, often as close as 10ft away! At the closer range, its audible. But as far as sniping someone from a distance, it is not; though it is true that a sniper wants to be as silent as possible. Many Germans hiding in pill boxes found this out the hard way when an American soldier who had sniped them from across the road or field, approaches them with an empty M1, but they did not know what because they never heard that 'Ping' sound. The same thing happened on the island battles in the pacific with the Japanese.

The .338 Lapua Magnum has seen a little bit of a falling off in popularity, due largely to its tendency to beat up the shooter. A popular alternative (it's now being used on the M24 sniper system) is the .300 Win Mag, which achieves a speed only 300f/s less than the Lapua, but is just as accurate out to 800 meters, which is really the common practical limit for a battlefield sniper. Of rising popularity is the .300 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) which has nearly identical energy, and ballistics as the the 300 Win Mag, but the shorter case, making for shorter actions and faster follow-up times.
It also has about the same recoil as the 30-06, which certainly makes it less distracting to use than the .338 Lapua.

I would imagine the cyborgs would not give a rats ass about recoil since they should be strong enough to counter it, but in my OC fiction the WA2000 fires .300 Winchester since I figure the handlers are more likely to use it and I saved .338LM for a TR-42 used by the troops (Amadeo, Giorgio, etc.) for long-range shots where they have proper bracing.

longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) and was achieved by CoH Craig Harrison, a sniper from the Household Cavalry of the British Army. It was accomplished in an engagement in November 2009 in which two stationary Taliban machine gunners were killed south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan with two consecutive shots by CoH Harrison using an Accuracy International L115A3 Long Range Rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum

According to JBM Ballistics, using drag coefficients (Cd) provided by Lapua, the L115A3 has an approximate super-sonic range (speed of sound = 329.3 m/s) of 1,375 m (1,504 yd) under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at sea level (air density ρ = 1.225 kg/m3) and 1,548 m (1,693 yd) at the 1,043 m (3,422 ft) altitude or elevation (air density ρ = 1.1069 kg/m3) of Musa Qala. This illustrates how environmental condition differences can significantly affect bullet flight.

This external ballistics computer program predicts that the bullets of British high pressure .338 Lapua Magnum cartridges using 16.2 g (250 gr) Lapua LockBase B408 bullets fired at 936 m/s (3,071 ft/s) muzzle velocity under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at 1,043 m (3,422 ft) elevation (air density ρ = 1.1069 kg/m3) and assuming a flat fire scenario and a 100 m (109 yd) zero arrive at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) after approximately 6.017 s flight time at 251.8 m/s (826 ft/s) velocity and have dropped 120.95 m (4,762 in) or in angular units 48.9 milliradian (168 MOA) on their way.

CoH Craig Harrison mentions in reports that the environmental conditions were perfect for long range shooting, no wind, mild weather, clear visibility. Mr. Tom Irwin, a director of Accuracy International, the British manufacturer of the L115A3 rifle, said: “It is still fairly accurate beyond 1,500 m (1,640 yd), but at that distance luck plays as much of a part as anything.”

By contrast, much of the U.S./Coalition urban sniping in support of operations in Iraq is at much shorter ranges, although in one notable incident on April 3, 2003, Corporals Matt and Sam Hughes, a two-man sniper team of the Royal Marines, armed with L96 sniper rifles each killed targets at a range of about 860 metres (941 yd) with shots that, due to strong wind, had to be “fired exactly 17 meters (56 ft) to the left of the target for the bullet to bend in the wind.”

Rush, it takes a year of practice to get that good.

Though I find snipers really interesting; it
amazes me how they can determine the windspeed, the distance, etc. to
get an effective shot.

There are visual cues they use, such as heat-mirage, grass blowing, leaves flying around obviously... Even falling rain can be used to gauge wind effect.
Distance is a little easier, being on a par with mental geometry. Find distance along the ground using two (relatively) known objects as a reference. Find their height using the elevation lines in the scope, knowing that 1 MOA is equal to X number of degrees and Y number of inches at Z range. So, if a telephone pole at an easily guessed range (say 100 meters) is this big in MOA, and it's that big at the target distance, then the range is thus. Then again, laser range-finders are readily available.

Practice makes the calculations automatic or easier after a time, and once you get familiar with how the weapon acts at a certain range, you can tune it in close without firing a shot, then tighten it up depending on where the shot lands.

most of sniping is observation, fieldcraft the rest is math.
and when to do shoot some one you find out just how close you are to there backup