Beretta 950

Figured I might give Miranda one of these. Yeah, .25 acp is one of the most marginal pistol calibres to ever gain significant market share, but Miranda has a background in deep cover assignments and the nice thing about these is that you can hide one pretty much anywhere it's possible to hide a pistol (plus this pistol is known for being quite accurate for something so small, which may help a bit). It's significantly smaller than a Walther PPK (especially in weight) and better yet, it's not German, so Miranda can tease her brother about how he's not a real Italian if he uses foreign guns all she wants without sounding like a hypocrite. (And in return the small calibre means he can be extra critical of the thing's capabilities.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_950_Jetfire

Seem to me like the way the photos were taken there make the thing look extra thick (it's a very small pistol), but it's difficult to find good websites for this model.

The one thing I'm really uncertain about is whether the Italian market 950 ever got the safety that post 1968 US market guns got. If not, then Miranda would have to cock the thing as she draws it. Though heck, the thing already has a significantly different manual of arms from her larger Berettas (for one thing, it has a tip up barrel and no extractor).

I think Caterina had one of these in her boot holster when Hillshire and Triela came a calling on Pinnochio's place. It was either that or a Beretta 3032 Tomcat / Beretta 21 Bobcat.

Judging by the images I looked up, Franca's Beretta is a 3032 Tomcat. I considered that too, but it's significantly thicker than the old 950 (though it does have a slightly more substantial calibre).

I sometimes feel like Miranda reminds me a little too much of Franca, but that might just be because they're both blonde and have a taste for old Italian manufactured stuff.

Thought this might make a decent visual comparison of how small the thing is. Beretta 950 next to a Beretta 92 Compact (which is a little bit smaller than a standard 92 in terms of length and height, though not by a lot). Wish they'd show it from the rear so I could get a clearer idea of the difference in grips though...

https://2img.net/h/i44.photobucket.com/albums/f7/jstank/beretta002.jpg
https://2img.net/h/i44.photobucket.com/albums/f7/jstank/beretta003.jpg

I can imagine the exchange between my OC's...

Elio: That Beretta 92 of yours is too big for you to conceal neatly...you should really consider trying something like this.

Marisa: Whatever...can I try out the Desert Eagle again?

Same size, if not sightly larger, but not by much, My OC use the .32NAA by North American Arms. Slightly larger bullet with a whallop(!!) for the almost same size of the Beretta 950. If you need something smaller- North American Arms makes a .25 version of the .32NNA. The .25NAA is a .25 round in a .32 necked down casing. This gives the .25 round a powerful blast behind pushing it, more then enough to take somebody down. Being slightly smaller than the .32NAA gun, it should be easier to conceal.

Both Guardians are actually slightly smaller than the old Beretta, but there are trade offs the other way too, like heavier weight (which is an issue with some unusual concealed carry method) and ammunition capacity (6+1 vs 8+1). Overall, I think the deciding factor is that Miranda's preferences in firearms were formed when she was still in the Carabinieri and didn't have access to the SWA's armoury of exotic guns.

Also, this is getting a bit more technical than I'd like to get in some ways, but I'm more concerned with the small hole the .25 makes than it's energy. See spoiler tag for details.

Spoiler:

As a minimum carry, the .25NAA is a 6+1 gun, you can go to their accessories dept. and get the 10 round magazines for next to nothing. In fact, these are the ones that my OCs uses for their mission weapons, and the 6 round magazine that comes with the gun is used as a last resort. In all, when Rachel is carrying 5 magazines (1-10 round in the gun, 3-10 round and 1-6 round) in her purse, she's has a total of 57 shots to take into battle. The magazines for these caliber sized guns are not that big and she could carry more; as compared to the .45 magazine. You would need to ask the gun companies or an experienced gunsmith as to how get the best performance for your weapon.

The 10 round magazine does extend the handle a bit; which can be a plus for those with large hands like Fernando. Since Rachel has small hands, there is little advantage to a slightly longer handle, but the advantage of more bullets. I'm sure that there are extended magazines for the Berettas- you just have to look for them.

Spoiler:

I really doubt your audience has anywhere near the obsession to detail you do, Piero. You can find a flaw in any weapon, and since you seem to focus your research on finding those flaws (based on your posts), you are unlikely to find the "perfect" weapon for your squad of OC's since it doesn't exist.

A Gunslinger Girl should be able to compensate for those flaws. If she's carrying a weapon chambered for .25ACP, she'd use her "innate harmlessness" of being a child/young teen to walk right up to her target and put the gun right up to their chest or back over their heart and fire the round to maximize penetration. And if she can't get close enough to the target to do that (due to situation or protective detail), then she clearly would not be using a weapon chambered for .25ACP, but instead something bigger able to do damage from a distance. So the limited penetration ability of the .25ACP round is irrelevant.

It's not so much that .25 acp lacks penetration, supposedly is meets that minimum penetration requirement adequately in FMJ form, and any deterioration of penetration with range isn't really much of an issue because .25 pocket pistols aren't designed for long range shooting (people consider the Beretta 950 accurate because it can be shot somewhat accurately at fifteen yards). However, it's a tiny bullet and it doesn't have enough excess penetration that it can really afford to sacrifice some of it for expansion the way a deeper penetrating 9mm or .45 round can. So not only is it small compared to the larger rounds to begin with, but the larger rounds gain an even bigger advantage as they expand.

I'm aware that everything has trade offs, it's just that sometimes the trade offs seem serious enough to be a major issue. The Beretta 950 is basically a weapon that becomes useful when nothing larger is available. I just worry that I may have gone a little too low on the effectiveness scale by selecting a .25 acp pistol. But honestly speaking, if there's any character I have who this gun fits, it's Miranda, because of her background in undercover work (keep in mind this is the reason she got into the SWA, she's a member of the support staff and was not hired as a front line troubleshooter). I just have to balance it with the fact that she's someone who also takes gunfighting seriously enough to know the value of a larger calibre weapon.

15 yds is quite some distance. In CQB, it would be the size of a full size gym or 2/3 the of an indoor pool which tend to be 25 yds or so.

The lacking power of the .25ACP is in the amount of powder in its tiny casing. This is where the .25NAA would be more advantageous because of its larger casing (using a necked down casing from a .32 onto a .25 round), meaning more powder and hence more power.

But again, what counts is being able to hit a target, no matter what size gun one might be using. I seen figures of an average gun fight where 10 shots were fired but yet 2 or 3 only scored hits. This is rather frightening if you think about it. If your OC is using the .25ACP, then it should be good enough in any CQB situation and in the right hands- deadly accurate. An experienced gun owner will know every idiosyncrasy and quirk their handgun will have and be able to compensate for it. If anything, you should be using your research by inputting that knowledge into your OC's head and make them act according with that weapon of choice. For example- its range is accurate to 15 yards, your OC should be able to figure out the shots fired and predict how they would behave at 30 yds by practicing at that range, and when in a fire fight take advantage of that knowledge. This would make the accuracy for the weapon for them double what most people could do. On there, there is nothing more than what I can say about the situation.

it's a small gun that makes small loud holes
it may have troble with bone,thick cloth or fat and any body armor stops it right out

but still it is a gun an .22 by your side is better than a .45 at the bedside.

and as a fire and run weapon

a plastic ceramic/glass blade is qicker but messy and may be even louder(shots vs 15sec of fighting).
but thay can be walk in past metal detectors and pat downs

funkmachine wrote:but still it is a gun an .22 by your side is better than a .45 at the bedside.

unless you're in bed at the time

Given the light bullet weight and low velocity of the .25 rounds the 950 fires, I suspect it's effectiveness decreases drastically with range. Also, I seem to remember the guy who managed to shoot four inch groups with one of these at fifteen yards got complimented pretty heavily for being able to do so. The 950 has tiny sights... which is actually an improvement over many weapons in it's class, which don't even have sights.

I've considered having Miranda stick a dab of bright paint on her 950's front sight to make it more visible under stress conditions. I don't think however that she's tend to treat the thing as anything more than a deep cover/back up gun. It would not be something she'd favour for serious CQB work. When she has the option, she moves up the line to this this. Or better yet, this.

Actually, one problem Miranda might have is that she's gotten tactical advice from her brother, who happens to have served in a police counter-terrorism unit... which might seem like a good thing, until you consider that the techniques that may be effective for storming a building with a service pistol aren't necessarily the same ones that work well for rapidly deploying a pocket pistol at point blank range in a stress situation.

You have so many OC's I can't keep track of them (you need to publish an Official Playbook like baseball teams sell at the stadium) and I don't see her on the OC wiki.

I'm going to guess that since she has a brother, she's a handler, so yes, she's limited to what a human can do with such a weapon. And being an older woman, she can't exactly skip up to her target with a lollipop in her mouth and, as the target smiles down at her, whip out the 950 and place it under his chin before pulling the trigger.


If she was a cyborg, then it wouldn't really matter. Based on what we have seen, a Gunslinger Girl is an Expert Marksman. Beatrice was drilling guys in the head with an Uzi while swinging across a bell tower on a rope. Also, recoil should be something a cyborg is less susceptible to do to their super-human hand, wrist and arm strength.

So if on a non-windy day Miranda the Cyborg cannot put a group of four bullets effectively on top of each other at 15 meters with a Beretta 950, her handler should be tarred and feathered as an incompetent boob.

Miranda is Piero's (or rather Orlando's) twenty-seven year old 'little' sister and a former Carabineiri officer. She's got strong family loyalties, so once he disappeared off her radar she made an effort to pull some strings and track him down. Once she finally did (and after they had a bit of a fight about the whole thing) she decided he needed someone to look out for him in the agency and managed to swing a support staff position (having a good track record as an undercover officer really helped with that one).

Character wise, she's got a bit of a mischievious streak and is a lot less taciturn than her brother (who she teases a lot). Also, they look really different despite being siblings, so people have occassionally mistaken her for his girlfriend.

I've also considered the Modulo Masterpiece Resolver M380 for Miranda, but the original Sites version of the gun would have been out of production by the time she got into work that would warrant it and the Modulo Masterpiece version is extremely recent (maybe -given that the company's website has disappeared, I'm not sure if their version ever really got produced in any significant quantity). Plus, I'm a bit leary of the lack of a full trigger guard, and while the thing is small it's also significantly larger and probably significantly heaver than the Beretta 950. Main advantage is the considerably more substantial calibre.

Kiskaloo wrote:And being an older woman, she can't exactly skip up to her target with a lollipop in her mouth

I'm willing to bet that tactic would work more often than not, regardless of age. Even if it is just because they'd think her a brain addled cuckoo clock (or a very forward prostitute).

LOL@Rusty! I got to hand it to you, there...

Piero, you are missing a simple point. In using such a weapon, one would have to be in very close combat situation with it- feet instead of yards. Secondly, anyone in this type of situation would have trained at least to be able to shoot the weapon as an extension of their arm/hand. Therefore, their hand coordination would be quite high and where they put their extended arm to aim is where they are going to hit. As a former competition champion foil and sabre fencer, the blade was the extension of my hand and my mind knew where my blade was at when I placed it for an attack/recovery/attack again. The same when I was guns, where ever my hand and aim extended, one can draw a neat straight line to where the bullet goes. Minimally would I need to aim with one eye closed, as trasking the gun's poistion with both eyes usually set it into place rather easily. All officers of the military and law enforcement would have this practice as part of their training.

One should not be needing to rely on 'spray and pray' tactics when in cqc situations. And regardless of the size of the gun, a couple of hits and they are not going anywhere.

Despite the excellent research you have done here, you are also missing that people do modify their weapons. As I stated about my OCs, though their weapons have a standard 6-round capacity, they went out and added extended 10-round units for their firearms, from the actual company no less! I would be damn sure that Barretta or some 3rd party would have extended clips for the guns in question.

Both the .22 and the .25 are assassins rounds, as when they hit the body, they tend to bounce around inside. This causes more damage to the person being shot, and if they are not admitted to the emergency room immediately, death by internal bleeding in a couple of hours. True a .38 would be a more sustantial round compared to the .25 in immediate take down of a target but if you are going for a .38, why not go for the 9mm? Its the same sized round more or less, just the casings are diffrent. Again, this is why I went for the .32NAA for my OC's.

Thirdly, a gun that is (or is not) out of production should not be an issue either. If your OC has a rare or unique weapon, then he or she has the means of aquiring bullets for it and means of getting parts and services for its maintenance and repairs. She can go utra exotic with the 8mm Nambu, the Chinese Type 77 pistol or the Chinese QSZ-92 pistol. I had a red-shirt OC in UN Resolution who used the QSZ-92; Boomer, you remember her- her initials were B.T.! Piero- she was a red shirt, not because of the gun she had, but because that was her fate in the story. The QSZ-92 is a rather nice handgun for its size.

Again, its not the gun that makes the character, but the character that makes the gun.

ElfenMagix wrote:I had a red-shirt OC in UN Resolution who used the QSZ-92; Boomer, you remember her- her initials were B.T.! Piero- she was a red shirt, not because of the gun she had, but because that was her fate in the story. The QSZ-92 is a rather nice handgun for its size.

Again, its not the gun that makes the character, but the character that makes the gun.

I remember her; owned and humiliated. Also, I agree with Elfen here on the last bit.

Alpha's weaponry tends to shift around, but that mainly is because of his designation as a field agent. His roles will in fact change quite dramatically from assignment to assignment so a weapon's cache as versatile as he is becomes an absolute requirement.

For example; I've already listed his primary load-out in the 'Choices' thread, but Alpha is also very familiar with long range rifles, shotguns, and heavy automatics(as in the upcoming Alpha+Kara fic; he uses a modified BAR M1918A2 and SPAS-12).

Now back to the subject at hand; Alpha avoids Beretta's as a rule. Not due to any shortcomings in their accuracy, reliability, and durability. In fact, most Beretta's shine in that regard. It's the clumsy-assed safety mechanism that seems to come undone if you so much as breath on it too hard. He's seen more than a few people kill their feet using Beretta's and especially the M9 variant.

Apologies for the length of the following...

I was under the impression that -for good or ill- modern "tactical" training wasn't big on point shooting. Plus, Miranda's brother was part of a CT unit and they strike me as likely to be really focused on pinpoint accuracy. I'll admit I don't really know jack about police training procedures though, other than that they change over time and from department to department.

I think I may have caused some confusion by mentioning the 950's dinky sights. That was more in relation to the suggestion of trying to use a 950 for longer range shooting. For up close work, I think it would be advisable for Miranda to know point shooting. The question is more just whether the person she's getting her advice from knows pocket pistols well enough to employ them properly (Miranda's ex-GIS brother isn't known for using weapons of that class).

It's also probably worth noting that Miranda doesn't view the 950 as an assassination weapon. Her background is in undercover police work. For her, the 950 was never meant to be a real replacement for the capabilities of a larger pistol. In her mind, it's strictly a weapon of desperation. As for the PM-12, I doubt it get out much given Miranda's position on the support staff, but I imagine it's her favoured weapon for situations that warrant (and allow) for the use of larger weapons. Stuff like sweeping a building, maybe. She should know how to handle a PM-12, it's a standard issue Carabinieri weapon.

Finding accurate information on the Resolver series is a massive pain, information is often sketchy and some of the sources contradict each other. Near as I can tell though, the .380 version is about the size of a Walther PPK, so it's much smaller than a full size pistol like the Cougar. Aside from possibly being larger than the .380 version, the 9x19mm version of the original SiTES product wasn't very successful and reportedly had issues due to bein too lightly built for the round it fired.

Between the Resolver M380 and the Beretta 950, I guess there's always the third option -take both.

Boomer -Is a 92's safety that easy to disengage accidentally? Makes the G models (decocker only) seem like they might not be a bad idea. A complete lack of a manual safety might serve as a good reminder about not touching the trigger unnecessarily...

Piero wrote:I was under the impression that -for good or ill- modern "tactical" training wasn't big on point shooting. Plus, Miranda's brother was part of a CT unit and they strike me as likely to be really focused on pinpoint accuracy. I'll admit I don't really know jack about police training procedures though, other than that they change over time and from department to department.

having trained with a Military Police unit for a year... I can assure you that extremity shots, while not part of official doctrine, are part of training. That may have just been a quirk of my specific trainer, though. For some reason, I always seemed to be assigned unorthodox mentors when I was active duty.

Forgive my ignorance, but how precisely do you define extremity shots?

Piero wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but how precisely do you define extremity shots?

Arms and legs.

Piero wrote:Apologies for the length of the following...

I was under the impression that -for good or ill- modern "tactical" training wasn't big on point shooting. Plus, Miranda's brother was part of a CT unit and they strike me as likely to be really focused on pinpoint accuracy. I'll admit I don't really know jack about police training procedures though, other than that they change over time and from department to department.

Aint that the truth! My fire arms training with the agency and later on with the police force differ greatly, but I had since established my own style which suits me just fine a long time ago. Just for practice- I go to the paintball shooting alleys and put myself up against those who consider themsleves the best. HA! When that crazy old Viet Nam Vet was around, the Team of F&L went paintballing, entire teams went home crying that night! In short, shooting against paper targets is to develop accuracy at best. Shooting at live targets is to develop working tactics that work against the living! You are not going to be in a CQC situation with paper targets! And if you do, if you lose in such a fight, you desrve what you get!

Piero wrote:I think I may have caused some confusion by mentioning the 950's dinky sights. That was more in relation to the suggestion of trying to use a 950 for longer range shooting. For up close work, I think it would be advisable for Miranda to know point shooting. The question is more just whether the person she's getting her advice from knows pocket pistols well enough to employ them properly (Miranda's ex-GIS brother isn't known for using weapons of that class).

It's also probably worth noting that Miranda doesn't view the 950 as an assassination weapon. Her background is in undercover police work. For her, the 950 was never meant to be a real replacement for the capabilities of a larger pistol. In her mind, it's strictly a weapon of desperation. As for the PM-12, I doubt it get out much given Miranda's position on the support staff, but I imagine it's her favoured weapon for situations that warrant (and allow) for the use of larger weapons. Stuff like sweeping a building, maybe. She should know how to handle a PM-12, it's a standard issue Carabinieri weapon.

Before Glocks were issued to the NY Police Force, they used the old .38 S&W Revolvers (.32 & .25 S&W Revolevers for female officers). As a back up, many officers used a .25 revolver or automatic in an ankle holster. Back then, many officers swore on their lives to these little guns saving them in some very hairy situations.

lol It looks funny. I'd use it

Sometimes I really think that pistols of this type are more intended for people to wave around rather than actually fire. I know that's what I'll be having Monty use her PPK for a lot: shoving it under peoples' noses whilst she kicks information out of them.

So, to be honest: I like it. Strokes for folks I guess and if Miranda's going deep cover then give her something that suits. As Elfen said: the character makes the gun, not vice versa.

For those who remember, Kirika in Noir used a .32 chambered Beretta M1934. Even the writers passed off her success as being her insane accuracy, not the round.

You can certainly debate terminal ballistics till you're blue in the face, but most agree that once you get below a 380ACP, you need to go FMJ for anything resembling penetration in a target beyond gut-range.

Most of the 32 guns are designed as last resorts, hence why so many have been carried as a back up on the ankle or elsewhere.

The largest concern I personally would have with the Beretta above is the likely-hood of a stoppage. It really doesn't take much to jam a casing into the chamber as it is, and an internal extractor design like that can be prone to them. A slight over-charge in the load can balloon the cartridge tight against the walls and prevent extraction. Some missed crud in the chamber can cause it, and don't even get me started on laquered cases.

Point being, just because a design fills a role, it does not mean it's the best option availiable.

What was that movie, Pulp Fiction I think it was, where Morgan Freeman in his character said, "3 to the head, makes sure their dead!"

Don't recall Freeman in Pulp Fiction, and I'm not sure Samuel L Jackson said it in that movie, though my memory of it can be questionable.

It may have not been Pulp Fiction, but it is one where he played an assassin trying to make a hit on someone and his assistant missed on a kill, to which he said tha line.

Anyways, dispite the flaws of the weapon, if one is a competant user of the device, they should be aware of its issues and keep it properly maintained to keep such issues to a minimum.

Serious, how many professional gun users out there are like Pig-Pen from the Peanuts? Never maintaining a weapon, let alone cleaning it- if it never misfired, jammed or failed to operate at all, it would be a miracle of miracles.

Serious, how many professional gun users out there are like Pig-Pen
from the Peanuts? Never maintaining a weapon, let alone cleaning it- if
it never misfired, jammed or failed to operate at all, it would be a
miracle of miracles.

How many Glock owners do you know?

You can't get through to some of them that just because you can probably run it five to ten throusand between cleanings, doesn't mean that you should. I ran my M&P five hundred between once and I felt ashamed at the crud I had to clean out of it. It still worked fine, but I didn't want to punish the poor thing anymore.

maverick375 wrote:How many Glock owners do you know?

The entire (OK not entire, but about 93% of...) NYPD.

maverick375 wrote:You can't get through to some of them that just because you can probably run it five to ten throusand between cleanings, doesn't mean that you should. I ran my M&P five hundred between once and I felt ashamed at the crud I had to clean out of it. It still worked fine, but I didn't want to punish the poor thing anymore.

I remember my first gun for working at the agency, it was a little .38 semi auto. It was used and had heavy wear, but it was the only available gun at the time before I got the AA M1981/1984 .45ACP (a 1911 Variant). It had trouble shooting (kept on jamming) so a little trip to Leon's place, we fixed that sucker up better than new! He even had parts for it, making the repairs and maintenance that more easier. When told to return the gun, my boss was surprised to see it better condition when when it was given to me. Then when given the AA .45, I was warned that the gun would be scarce on it parts, but seeing how I fixed up the first gun, they let me have the AA .45 instead of letting me something else like with most agents of the time. Thus I wiped down the gun(s) almost daily and oiled it every week. At the range, they could go through 500 rounds with ease; and during their use on various missions, I never had a jam. Never. I have seen and even backed up cops and other agents who had their service weapons jam up on them- its not a pretty sight.

One gun of a fellow agent I remember, a Springfield Armory 1911- 9mm version, the casing partially ejected and the open end got crushed into the slider rail against the slider. It was very difficult to try to remove the slider off the casing, and if luck was not on my side when it came out, I would have taken the gun to Leon to deal with it. Chance are he would have told us of some Viet Nam War Story that would have match the gun's jam, explained how and why it happens and what to do if it happens again. Luckily this happened in the range, where we were able to bring the weapon home to fix. If it were out in battle, that would have been all she wrote for both the gun and the agent.