[TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 13:49

Anybody catch the first two episodes of this new series that debuted last night on The History Channel?

I'm watching the first episode now - "Machine Guns". It appears to be a historical retrospective including the "hits" (like the Maxim and Thompson SMG) and the "misses" (like the Chauchat).

Gunny is a bit over-the-top as a host, but then this is Gunny we're talking about. Wink

And the super-slow-motion film of bullet impacts are pretty cool.

snipe

by Piero Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 14:51

I've read that the French Chauchats in 8mm Lebel tended to be significantly better weapons then the modified .30-06 versions produced for American troops (which apparently didn't even have correct chamber dimensions). They still had issues, most notably the open sided magazines (which I gather were eventually replaced with proper magazines) but were apparently still considered useful, particularly since the Chauchat was basically the first light machine gun design.

by **ElfenMagix** Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 18:17

If you are talking WWI French Chauchats, WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!! THEY WERE PIECES OF TRASH! ITS ONLY GOOD IS THAT YOU CAN TAKE IT APART AND MAKE A STILL OUT OF IT!

Seriously, it was a piece of junk- even in controlled environments of the gunshop R/D Labs, it did not do well. It was a promising design for easy maintence and built, but all the open ports (Not just at the magazine), allowed mud to go in and f-up the gun. Furthermore- no self resepcting pilot had them on their Morane-Saulniers and Neuports 11s! Instead- they went for the more reliable Vickers and Lewis machine guns. The gun was so bady built that no parts from any Chauchat would fit into another- even from the same production line and shipping crate! It has a very poor Q/A.

And the comment about making the Chauchat into a still, was true.

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 18:38

The second show on Field Artillery was really cool.

by Piero Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 19:47

Well, that got me to doing a little more research, including reading through a multi page discussion on the Chuachat by a group of machine gun enthusiasts. It would take far too long to cover all the points made in the debate, but I think this post did a good job of summing up a number of key points in a (relatively) brief fashion:

I too, back in the 60s, when I saw the first (decrepit) relic of an
Aussie bringback CSRG in the hands of a friend of mine (been thru a
fire, thoroughly rusted, etc) and I read all the horrible descriptions
about it in SAOTW,though like a lot of Current "know it alls" regarding
the Chauchat; it was only when I saw some in Europe, complete and
Functioning (after a fashion, as they were "Deko" -non firing, but
moving parts), that I began to appreciate the Engineering etc, of a WW
I answer to the meatgrinder of the trenches.

When the French Authored book came out ( " Honour Bound") I really got
the feel that this "new style" construction ( all tubes, stampings and
rivets) was a rapid answer to a current need, and was developed along
the way, as could be done without greatly interrupting supply or making
variants mutually not interchangeable.

And as many other Posters have maintained, it was the Level of
Pre-combat training that ensured correct function of this LMG (Just as
Hatcher himself determined in 1915-6 on the Mexican Border areas where
he was sent to establish a Machine Gunners School. He knew about both
French and German machine gunners Schools, from pre-war visits to both
countries, and the emphasis placed on middle to senior NCOs with plenty
of field experience being trained as Gun crew leaders, with all the
other ranks being trained in every aspect of MG use and care. The
results of this German training were seen in 1914 at the beginning of
WW I.

I think the French had a 3 month course for NCO MGunners, the Germans
had a six month course (in peacetime) for their MG-schutzen. During WW
I, this was shortened somewhat, but only combat tested soldiers were
selected by the Germans to be part of MG Kompanie.

The French did the same when they started with the CSRG, as this was a
tactical use field arm, to be used by moving infantry, not a Fixed
Position gun such as the Hotchkiss or the Maxim.
Any defects in training and recuperation of Construction defects in the
gun were soon sorted out by the numerous reports back from the trenches
on performance in all sorts of conditions. Where the problem could be
remedied at the factory, it was; where it couldn't, such as the heat
expansion of the barrel causing jams in the jacket, the solution was,
shorter bursts, more "cool time" between Bursts, more deliberate
(aimed) fire...in effect, more gunner discipline...and this was
hammered into the Poilus in training.
Magazine problems were resolved by adding a "deformation checking
tool", and making the magazines an "expense item" (ie, Throwaway) if
they were defective.

The actual numbers of CSRGs fielded in WW I by France belies any
"crappy gun" diagnosis...nobody makes and uses over a Quarter-million
LMGs if they are crap and get people killed.... and the number of Croix
de Guerre won by CSRG gunners in battle also show that the gunners were
confident in their weapons, to the extent of carrying out actions of
great valour.

The real mistake can squarely be laid at US Ordnance ( and one general
rank officer in particular) who Poo-pooed the Lewis Gun (because of
personal animosity), and then ordering the CSRG in .30/06, a cartridge
for which the gun was never designed for, nor properly built for (too
high recoiling forces, impropery reamed chambers. ) Thank goodness this
happened in 1918...when the war was almost over. In any case, even
though the badly-trained US CSRG Gunners, using the 8mm Lebel 1915
model, never gained the expertise of their French confreres ( except
maybe the "Buffalo soldiers", who were part of the French Army), it was
the "bad press" of the 1918 model which tarred the whole design with
infamy.

by **rusty-spring** Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 20:33

Kiskaloo wrote:Anybody catch the first two episodes of this new series that debuted last night on The History Channel?

Forgot all about it, but I used to watch Mail Call, and Gunny is awesomely over-the-top. I'm gonna go try to find the episodes now. Smile

by Piero Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 14:41

I should probably really let this issue rest, but I keep thinking about it for some reason. So I hope you people don't mind if I take a couple minutes to just clear something up.

As I see it, the measure of whether a weapon is a hit or a miss is basically how successful it was. And while the .30-06 Chauchat would be a miss (because it was a failure), the 8mm Lebel version would be a hit, because it was a success. Look at it this way: the objective with the Chauchat was to provide a lightweight, highly portable automatic weapon that could be rapidly fielded in large numbers. And the result was a weapon that was produced in greater numbers then any other automatic weapon fielded during World War I. Yes, it was tempermental weapon, but as field reports showed, that didn't stop it from being used effectively and again... it was a weapon that could be fielded in large numbers. Maybe some of the other guns out there were better on an individual specimen to individual specimen basis, but the fact was that the Chauchat was available to troops that otherwise might not have had a light machine gun, and it's firepower was appreciated.

Does that sound like a failure to you?

by **rusty-spring** Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 14:56

Finally caught up with the episodes. Gunny still has it. Razz

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 15:32

Just because you make a lot of a piece of junk, doesn't make it any less a piece of junk. Wink

Anyway, right or wrong, History has rendered It's judgment on the Chauchat. And unlike the M-16, the Chauchat didn't have the benefit of decades of service history and updates to allow History to revise It's opening opinion. Wink

rusty-spring wrote:Finally caught up with the episodes. Gunny still has it.

I liked the tank one from last night.

by Awinnell Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 15:46

can't find any torrents for this show,i saw the machine gun one but all the later shows require you to register with a tracker to dowload !

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 16:05

Well it just broadcast last night, so it may take a bit for public sites to pick it up.

by Awinnell Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 16:33

maybe, but the second episode is the only one i've found, the first ones not available either

by **rusty-spring** Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 19:16

Piero wrote:Does that sound like a failure to you?

I also believe in the saying "any gun is better than no gun." That said, I still think that from what I've heard, the Chauchat can be deemed a failed gun. However, in lieu of not having any gun at all, it's better than nothing.

I'd rather have a box of saturday night specials in a firefight, then have to run up and punch my attackers. Razz

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 19:20

Well even if the Chauchat jams on the fourth or fifth round (as it did for Gunny when he test-fired it), you can at least club people over the head with it.

by **rusty-spring** Sat 8 Aug 2009 - 19:22

Yup, if all else fails, that gun better make a good bludgeon. [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 86919

Which reminds me, I cringe every time I see a movie where a character runs up to an attacker and uses the gun as a club/battle axe, then re-aims and fires it. Guns are meant to shoot bullets, save the Hammer of Thor impressions for when you have no ammo left. Razz

by Piero Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 4:02

Has history rendered judgement on the Chauchat? Several post war American authors condemned the weapon, but the Chauchat was actually viewed quite favourably by those who used it, and one of the more recent works on the weapon seems to have been changing some people's minds about it. Now, you could challenge the book's credibility based on the authors being French... but that fact is, those authors have strong evidence backing them up. One particular part of the book that I've seen quoted is the section detailing the responses to the 1917 survey that was issued to French officers asking them to evaluate the weapons their troops were using. Many of the responses noted issues with the weapon that they wanted addressed, but they were nearly unanimous in deeming the Chauchat to be a useful and valuable asset on the battlefield.

If you don't want to take my word for it, here's an excerpt from a debate on another forum. The author of the post noted that he didn't finish quoting the full section, but more or less stated that the rest of it was much the same.

Spoiler:

The authors of the book also went through some older American military literature, with interesting results (more quoting from another forum debate):

Spoiler:

Now compare the weight of evidence there to what this show is offering: a performance evaluation of a weapon that is probably over 90 years old, firing who knows how old ammunition, in the hands of someone who obviously has experience with weapons but is untrained in dealing with this particular weapon's ideosyncracies.

Personally, I'd say the book's evidence looks pretty solid.

by **Kiskaloo** Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 11:26

Personally, I don't care either way. It's not a weapon I am interested in.

People with better credentials than I don't like it, so I am inclined to take their word for it, but even if they said it was a fantastic weapon, I still wouldn't equip Kara with it, so. Razz

by Piero Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 13:13

I wouldn't equip an OC with a Chauchat either. There are much better weapons available nowadays that would also be far less of a pain in the ass logistically.

Point is though, the Chauchat is a historical weapon, and I should think that the opinion of the people who actually used the weapon in combat should factor into the historical assessement of it. Yes, it was a tempermental, difficult to master weapon, but it was also the most widely produced weapon of it's class during the war, it was used effectively and in large numbers, it was considered an immensely valuable weapon to have by the people who used it (this was not 'better then no gun'... it was actually considered a valuable asset), and it had a significant impact on future weapons designs.

Personally, it seems like a bit stretch to me to call a weapon like that a failure. Major success would actually seem to be a more appropriate way of putting it.

It didn't last long in service after the war, but I'm under the impression that early tanks didn't either.

by **Kiskaloo** Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 13:26

Well feel free to take it up with the historians, Piero.

by Guest Sun 9 Aug 2009 - 15:46

Hey, respect the good ol' WW1 Chauchat!

If its not useful as a gun, its good for money (for the manufacturer). If its not good for that too, soldiers can use that thing as a club!

If that fails, then its useful for good scrap metal--melt them, flatten them, then use them to patch the old French Renault FT17s! Recyclable material for the world's worst military record!

by **boomer_gonz** Mon 10 Aug 2009 - 1:19

If I recall correctly, the Chauchat had a few failures her and there, but didn't start royally fucking up until those crazy Americans tried firing 30-06 through a 8mm chamber.

by Piero Mon 10 Aug 2009 - 3:30

Boomer -the basic history of the .30-06 Chauchat as I understand it is that someone in the US Ordnance department has issues with the Lewis gun's designer which got in the way of providing US troops with light machine guns, which resulted in US troops arriving overseas short on light machine guns, which resulted in a request to the French for weapons of that type, which resulted in them trying to quickly rush out a .30-06 version of the Chauchat and getting it wrong in the process.

Also, much as I've defended the 8mm Chauchat, I wouldn't really write it off as just having 'a few failures here and there.' It wasn't so much that it didn't have issues as that the issues didn't keep it from being viewed as a valuable and effective weapon by many of its users.

When you get right down to it, the Chauchat was like pretty much any weapon system -it had it's pros and cons. I just think some sources overlook it's pros and overemphasize the cons.

Fun fact -after WWI, the French got a chance to test the Browning Automatic Rifle and concluded that it was a better weapon then the Chauchat (big surprise). They didn't adopt it. They did, however, borrow some of it's features when they designed a new light machine gun design of their own. Laughing

Hey, they say imitation is the best form of flattery...

by Guest Mon 10 Aug 2009 - 6:26

Americans tried firing 30-06 through a 8mm chamber.

But the Americans requested for the gun to be fitted with .30-06 in the first place when they enter the battlefield. The French didn't bother that much with their request and pretty much wreck the whole deal though..

by LoC978 Mon 10 Aug 2009 - 12:59

just goes to show: if ya want something done right, do it yourself.

by **Kiskaloo** Fri 14 Aug 2009 - 22:19

Pistols and Machine Pistols were on the menu with this episode.

The biggest thing Gunny fired was the S&W 500 and the high-speed film of the recoil shockwave traveling down his arm was epic.

by **rusty-spring** Sat 15 Aug 2009 - 11:37

The Team Glock girl was gorgeous [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 423829

by MikhailN Sun 16 Aug 2009 - 9:36

Kiskaloo wrote:The biggest thing Gunny fired was the S&W 500 and the high-speed film of the recoil shockwave traveling down his arm was epic.

Finally saw a bit of it on youtube. That actually shows that he's not good with handguns. What he's doing is to "lock" his whole arm with his muscles so that the recoil is absorbed completely by the arm. That's the easiest way to shoot and is taught by many armies. However, that also means that the force travels straight down the arm like in the video and ends up in the scapula. Do it long enough and your upper back is going to get injured. Also, his 2-handed grip is quite awkward because his left hand is slightly lower on the grip than his right. That means that the recoil is distributed unevenly with more on the right hand than the left.

The girl (she's actually an IPSC shooter sponsored by Glock) has a better technique. Her 2-handed grip is used almost exclusively by IPSC shooters and gives her a more even distribution of recoil across the 2 arms. More importantly for IPSC shooters, the recoil becomes easier to control. Also, if you watch carefully, when she shoots her elbow is slightly bent. What she's doing is to use the elbow as a buffer spring to absorb the recoil and that makes recovering from every shot infinitely faster.

Of course that's called tv.

by **Kiskaloo** Sun 16 Aug 2009 - 13:05

Well Gunny is an old USMC Gunnery Sergeant so one would expect him to fire in "the military position". Razz

On the flip side, it actually does show two different approaches to firing a weapon, with each person using the "form" they were both taught and are most comfortable with. So it's actually "unscripted TV" in a way. cheers

by **rusty-spring** Sun 16 Aug 2009 - 17:23

Yup, the times where they taught one handed pistol shooting stances. Razz

by LoC978 Tue 18 Aug 2009 - 2:44

nitpick: Gunny left the corps as an E-6 (Staff Sergeant). He made E-7 with an honorary promotion after completing his part in the filming of Full Metal Jacket.
as for his shooting... hell, I shoot pretty much like that sweat

guess we're not competition shooters, but we still hit targets consistently.
...and if someone sustains upper back injuries from shooting they should probably use a smaller caliber. .45s are alright for me, 'cause I tend to weigh a solid 180-200lbs depending on what I'm doing for a living lately and what I had for lunch... but I wouldn't recommend it for someone who only clears a buck fifty or less.

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 19 Sep 2009 - 19:11

You know

tuned in this week since Gunny was doing shotguns, including the:

Blunderbuss
1870 Wells Fargo Coach Gun
Winchester Model 1887 Lever Action Repeating Shotgun
Browning Auto-5 Semiautomatic Shotgun
1931 Over-And-Under Shotgun
Perrazi MX-12 Competition Shotgun
Benelli M1014 Combat Shotgun
Mossberg 590A1 Combat Shotgun
Auto Assault-12 fully-automatic Shotgun

and, of course, the Winchester Model 1897 Pump-Action Shotgun [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 499796

[TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 499796

He also fired three types of shot into a dressed turkey. Birdshot didn't do much but put a lot of small holes in it. Buckshot put bigger holes in it and did some shredding. A Deer Slug damned near blew it in half. The super-slow-mo video was...brutal.

by SPARTAN 119 Sat 19 Sep 2009 - 19:19

Kiskaloo wrote:You know tuned in this week since Gunny was doing shotguns, including the:

Blunderbuss
1870 Wells Fargo Coach Gun
Winchester Model 1887 Lever Action Repeating Shotgun
Browning Auto-5 Semiautomatic Shotgun
1931 Over-And-Under Shotgun
Perrazi MX-12 Competition Shotgun
Benelli M1014 Combat Shotgun
Mossberg 590A1 Combat Shotgun
Auto Assault-12 fully-automatic Shotgun

and, of course, the Winchester Model 1897 Pump-Action Shotgun

He also fired three types of shot into a dressed turkey. Birdshot didn't do much but put a lot of small holes in it. Buckshot put bigger holes in it and did some shredding. A Deer Slug damned near blew it in half. The super-slow-mo video was...brutal.

I wonder if she'll take my advice and switch to an AA-12 now that she's seen that beast in action. Probably not, considering how much she loves the old Winchester [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 325267

[TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 325267

, But I still have a feeling she'd love those FRAG-12 shotgun grenade (Hillshire, take note of that next time your looking for the perfect gift for your cyborg!)

by **rusty-spring** Sat 19 Sep 2009 - 19:33

Kiskaloo wrote:A Deer Slug damned near blew it in half. The super-slow-mo video was...brutal.

Gotta love deer slugs. [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey Icon_wink

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 19 Sep 2009 - 19:40

SPARTAN 119 wrote:I wonder if she'll take my advice and switch to an AA-12 now that she's seen that beast in action. Probably not, considering how much she loves the old Winchester , But I still have a feeling she'd love those FRAG-12 shotgun grenade (Hillshire, take note of that next time your looking for the perfect gift for your cyborg!)

Well Hillshire was looking at the Benelli M4 Super 90 (which the M1014 is based on) for her. I own one and I like it.

by **Nachtsider** Sat 19 Sep 2009 - 20:11

The Atchinson is too bulky. Triela would best go with the 1014.

by Toma-kun Sun 20 Sep 2009 - 1:29

Why is it that whenever there's a show on shotguns they always seem to neglect the Kalashnikov-pattern shotguns? I love American designed guns as much as the next guy, but the Saiga-12 has been in the hands of law abiding citizens far longer than any other fully automatic shotgun with detachable mags on the market.

by **rusty-spring** Sun 20 Sep 2009 - 1:41

Toma-kun wrote:Why is it that whenever there's a show on shotguns they always seem to neglect the Kalashnikov-pattern shotguns? I love American designed guns as much as the next guy, but the Saiga-12 has been in the hands of law abiding citizens far longer than any other fully automatic shotgun with detachable mags on the market.

I think it's because it's a show made by/and for Americans. I won't lie, the show has always biased American weapons in each episode. I'd find it interesting to see other country's guns too, but I'm not the producer. [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey Icon_razz

by **Kiskaloo** Fri 9 Oct 2009 - 23:21

Tonight's episode on Ammunition was everything I'd hoped. The high speed camera work of the impacts was pure On Cloud 9

.

by **boomer_gonz** Sat 10 Oct 2009 - 3:37

I got called into work! I missed it!!

Cry

x 9000

by **rusty-spring** Sat 10 Oct 2009 - 18:21

Kiskaloo wrote:Tonight's episode on Ammunition was everything I'd hoped. The high speed camera work of the impacts was pure .

Agreed. I loved Gunny's shameless "Full Metal Jacket" plugs. [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey Icon_razz

On another note, in the previous episode about "Blades," am I the only one that found Gunny's bayonet "rampage" against the watermelons towards the end absolutely hilarious? [TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 65220

[TV Show] Lock & Load with R. Lee Ermey 65220

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