Are the bad guys bad?

Cristiano and Franca wanted to fight for what's right (i think). What makes them bad?

They were willing to kill innocents for their "beliefs".

Now there is a good point.
In sheer speculation, and in the writing of my 1/2 of SWA Beginings - Francesca (with Boomer who is writing the Alpha version), I dare state that Padania and is sub group, the 5 Republics, were parts of a political party which was part of Parliment... until...

That is where the craziness begins. It would have been a political overthrow akin to a US Republican President sending in the Military to oust the Democratic Party members of Congress and the Senate and then declaring Marshal Law against all Democrats. As months and years go by, the Democrats begin to create factions to deal with this ousting on 2 levels- political and terroristic.

The reason for this happening was because of certain key votes not being passed when the preseident wanted them to be passed (War Powers Act, Budget and Projects, you name it, etc...). Thus unable to get what he wanted, the president ousts the Democrats out of office... I can see this happening with Padania in Italy.

In this view, Padania is an outlawed group by a very single minded and tolitarian (sp?) government. This is what makes them fight. What makes them bad is that they bomb and kill innocents (attempted bombing of train station, crimes against the people, etc.) instead of the government officals themselves.

Also, Franca was more a revenger than she was a true believer - she was pursuing a vendetta against the state more than seeking liberation for oppressed northerners, Padania's merely a convenient vehicle for her work. The repeating cycle of tit-for-tat violence and the perpetual mutual misery of feuding is a principal theme in Gunslinger Girl - there's even a chapter called "Breaking the circle of retaliation" and the messy Venice operation of the current "Vendetta" arc has resulted in the worst casualties the Agency's suffered in one place to date.

As to the general issue of Padania itself:

If Padania was leading an insurrection against the Italian government in actual real life, truth be told I'd be quite positive towards it, although not so much for moral principle but rather through pragmatic convenience of them serving my own ends. I am vehemently anti-EU - leaving aside the fact that the European Union is a staid, incestuous, endemically corrupt bureaucracy, I have very deep concerns about my country's sovereignty being erased by European federalism. A nationalist movement in Italy would intersect with my stance on the EU - if a founding member of the EU can't suppress a desire for national identity, it'll be a crippling blow to the confidence of federalists (which is itself propaganda - it wouldn't be a "United States of Europe", it'd be a dictatorship of apparatchiks) and Europhiles all over the continent. Normally I pin my hopes on Belgium splintering into Flanders and Wallonia for this, but they always tend to sputter out before crisis point there - the boring Belgians can't keep up a crisis if you paid them to do it! In Italy the effect would be a lot more forceful.

That said, though, it's still a risk - there's a potential for a patchwork of smaller, individually weaker states to actually enhance the EU's overbearing stranglehold - what is so innocuously dressed up as "a Europe of the regions". If a Padanian revolt ever did occur it'd require a careful reading of which way the wind's blowing before I could settle down on one side or the other.

Actually, I don't think these two are much different from those of SWA guys seeking revenge. Both sides have beliefs, losses, ideals. As for Franca/Caterina's case the author gives us a straight hint that most of Padanian terrorists are absolutely no difference to whom they oppose (are being opposed by), and that is what makes the story a drama. Cruel fate destined them to be by different political sides, that's all. The author also gives us his answer, which is probably trivial, on the example of that terrier guy, an ex-comrade of Caterina, and of that protected old lady (Prime Minister was she?) when they both proclaim hate and misunderstanding as the true enemy, and determine to cease fighting due to pointless victimhood and neverending bloodshed the war inevitably brings, yet unable to bring back to life people they loved.

hydra282 wrote:Cristiano and Franca wanted to fight for what's right (i think). What makes them bad?

And, yes. If you haven't noticed, they are not bad. Neither Pinocchio is.

Politics confuse me. Everyone should be good and nice to eachother, then everyone would be happy. We could all donate a few bucks and SHAZAM, we've saved a country. I'm holding out hope that humans will get better.
Just like a lot of aliens have.

The OAV put a new twist on the "Five Republics" angle.

I've always assumed it was named after the five largest northern regions (Piedmont, Lombardy, Trentino-Alto Adige, Veneto and Emillia-Romagna), but the OAV states the goal is to actually break Italy up into five independent states ala what happened to Yugoslavia.

One "republic" would be the northern regions ("Padania") with the capital in Milan. The second "republic" would be central Italy with the capital in Rome. The third would be in the south with Naples as the capital. Sicily and Sardinia would each be a separate republic, as well.

So Padania would be only one faction in the "Five Republics". You'd have the Camorra pushing for the independent Neapolitan republic, the Costa Nostra working for an independent Sicilian republic, Sardinian independence groups working for Sardinia and probably elements of the central government trying to take over the center. Mind you, the manga mentions nothing of the sort, so this may be another case where the anime went off in it's own direction, though since Yu may have actually written the episode, it might be his way to explain what, exactly, the Five Republics' goals are.

In my own OC universe, Padania/The Five Republics arose from the Lega Nord party with individuals who did not agree with Lega Nord taking a more conciliatory stance in order to try and gain traction/influence. However, I might adapt the "Five Republics" angle in the OAV.

I've always assumed it was named after the five largest northern regions (Piedmont, Lombardy, Trentino-Alto Adige, Veneto and Emillia-Romagna), but the OAV states the goal is to actually break Italy up into five independent states ala what happened to Yugoslavia.

I could see both being true - Padania began as a northern secessionist movement, but came to assume greater dimensions as every group of malcontents seeking to raise hell came like moths to the Five Republics' flame. Even though in earlier chapters Padania's described as a fascist organisation, by the time of Dante's speech at the end of Chapter 59 he's addressing everything from student communists to African jihadis!

IMO, both sides are wrong. Human speech is the product of thousands of years of evolution and yet we resort to violence to settle differences instead of negotiations, compromise and other non-violent solutions. No matter how sound your case is the moment you take up arms and begin to terrorize and hurt other people you have crossed a line from which there is no return.

In both the manga and the anime Padania is portrayed as the bad guy, but sometimes the 'good guys' do things so horribly that I do wonder if they're the good or the bad guys.

In the end, all this fighting wouldn't decide who is right, but who is left

In the end, all this fighting wouldn't decide who is right, but who is left

...which is great if you're one of those who are left!

hydra282 wrote:Politics confuse me. Everyone should be good and nice to eachother, then everyone would be happy. We could all donate a few bucks and SHAZAM, we've saved a country.

If only life were as simple as that... As it is, any race that is inherently good is doomed, as they'll sacrifice for others and become extinct in the process :/

I dunno. I thought manga Pinocchio was a little shit and didn't shed a single tear when he died. His anime interpretation I felt vaguely sorry for, but that was about it. The other terrorists I'm totally ambivalent about - they generally don't last long enough for me to really feel anything for.

As for the SWA, I've definitely got a beef with the top brass like Monica Petris and Lorenzo for coming up with the idea of using kids as super-soldiers to perform black-ops and the like. Most of these poor children should have been allowed to die peacefully a long time ago. But the girls themselves, their handlers and the support staff? Heroes and heroines through and through, I say. They have personally committed no wrongs, and, despite being a questionable means to an end, are performing astounding acts of heroism to protect their country and its innocent inhabitants.

TTIO wrote:If
only life were as simple as that... As it is, any race that is
inherently good is doomed, as they'll sacrifice for others and become
extinct in the process :/

Which race? The Human Race or any individual ethnic group (If it's this one the mods will hang you at dawn :adminsmash: )? I think the words you're looking for are along the lines of civilization, society and the like.

I have to agree with you because that's how many civilizations start out - violent, with little regard for humans and almost at the expense of others groups. Look at the Romans and other great civilizations and you'll see my point.

Nachtsider wrote:I dunno. I thought manga Pinocchio was a little shit and didn't shed a single tear when he died. His anime interpretation I felt vaguely sorry for, but that was about it. The other terrorists I'm totally ambivalent about - they generally don't last long enough for me to really feel anything for.

Oh? How about the two terrorists that were the focus of most of the first few volumes, Franco and Franca. I thought they were more human and were worth some of our attention as compared to the others who showed up for a while before getting shot to bits.

Nachtsider wrote:As for the
SWA, I've definitely got a beef with the top brass like Monica Petris
and Lorenzo for coming up with the idea of using kids as super-soldiers
to perform black-ops and the like. Most of these poor children should
have been allowed to die peacefully a long time ago. But the girls
themselves, their handlers and the support staff? Heroes and heroines
through and through, I say. They have personally committed no wrongs,
and, despite being a questionable means to an end, are performing
astounding acts of heroism to protect their country and its innocent
inhabitants.

I agree with you. The handlers and the girls are heroes. However, do not forget that early on they had to assassinate a political figure who didn't support some Bill. Besides saving the city regularly, they are active in its politics too. As for Monica and Lorenzo, I don't like them for starting up this whole programme but we have to look at both sides of the coin. All this is helping to develop prosthetics and help many others but will start us on the debate of whether the ends justify the means.

MikhailN wrote:

TTIO wrote:If only life were as simple as that... As it is, any race that is inherently good is doomed, as they'll sacrifice for others and become extinct in the process :/

Which race? The Human Race or any individual ethnic group (If it's this one the mods will hang you at dawn :adminsmash: )? I think the words you're looking for are along the lines of civilization, society and the like.

Any and all - applies just as well to animals as ethnic groups as extraterrestrials. It's a generic fact.

Nachtsider wrote:They have personally committed no wrongs, and, despite being a questionable means to an end, are performing astounding acts of heroism to protect their country and its innocent inhabitants.

Except for bellboys.

Kiskaloo wrote:Except for bellboys.

He was collateral damage. Simply wrong place at the wrong time and his death was necessary for the little girls to carry on their work to protect the fair country called Italy

Anyway, on a more serious note, it is instances like this that make me wonder who are the real terrorists here. The Padania? The SWA? Or both, because the SWA is out to terrorize the terrorists.

They're two sides of the same coin.

One will go to any lengths to keep the Republic together and the other will go to any lengths to tear it apart.

Though in the end it is always(as it has always been) the victor who will write the history books. How many times has modernized culture been "credited" for "saving the savages"?

What are the outcomes of Padania's and SWA' missions supposed to be?
Why does Padania want to break up Italy?

hydra282 wrote:Why does Padania want to break up Italy?

Padania is upset that the central government is using tax money collected in the north to fund projects in the south. They feel those tax monies should stay in the north.

Northern Italy is the industrial zone of the country while the south has been more agricultural. The central government has been using the wealth of the north to improve infrastructure and promote industry in the south.

hydra282 wrote:What are the outcomes of Padania's and SWA' missions supposed to be?
Why does Padania want to break up Italy?

You really need to re-read the manga. Chapter 35 page 7 - 9 to be precise. Those sum up the reason why the Padania exists. As for the SWA that one's a bit shady . First is for medical research reasons. Next is to execute orders from the Ministry of Interior. That includes terrorizing terrorists, killing off opposition politicians and other stuff that should never see the light of day

The North sounds like there being money hogs. Unless a ton of their earned money is being taken from them. They should at least a little money to help out the less fortunate.

That reminds me of a guy at school who bashed our school's ''Build a school in Ecuador'' program every chance he could. He said we should be using the money to help ourselves. He complains that our desks are broken, while the Ecuador don't even have desks

hydra282 wrote:The North sounds like there being money hogs. Unless a ton of their earned money is being taken from them. They should at least a little money to help out the less fortunate.

Well the south is controlled by the Mafia and other organized crime groups, so Padania just sees their money going to line the pockets of gangsters.

But part of it is "what's mine is mine and you have no right to any of it".

Oh, then, never mind, I guess
I'm so forgetful

Like the north doesn't have it's own mafira? The manga has shown time and again how they work with other mafia groups. I look at it a different way, they don't wanna help the South not because the gov is using part of their tax money to do so, it's more because if the South advances there is a very big chance the North will lose it's dominence.

The gov can use tax money however it wants, and building roads and bridges is a big part of that. I'm pretty sure everyone looks at them as the bad guys. Helping the South only makes Italy as a whole stronger. But there's a majority who just doesn't look at this the same or only in the short term.

As for the SWA that one's a bit shady . First is for medical research reasons. Next is to execute orders from the Ministry of Interior. That includes terrorizing terrorists, killing off opposition politicians and other stuff that should never see the light of day

It's a matter of economising. You're dumping money into a crash course for bio-medtech, why not save a bit on the overall budget by using the resulting cyborgs for anti-terror work and save a few pennies there? I'm sure the numbers look nice.

maverick375 wrote:

As for the SWA that one's a bit shady . First is for medical research reasons. Next is to execute orders from the Ministry of Interior. That includes terrorizing terrorists, killing off opposition politicians and other stuff that should never see the light of day

It's a matter of economising. You're dumping money into a crash course for bio-medtech, why not save a bit on the overall budget by using the resulting cyborgs for anti-terror work and save a few pennies there? I'm sure the numbers look nice.

Oh yes the numbers will look splendid. Just wait until the human rights guys get them.

MikhailN wrote:

maverick375 wrote:

As for the SWA that one's a bit shady . First is for medical research reasons. Next is to execute orders from the Ministry of Interior. That includes terrorizing terrorists, killing off opposition politicians and other stuff that should never see the light of day

It's a matter of economising. You're dumping money into a crash course for bio-medtech, why not save a bit on the overall budget by using the resulting cyborgs for anti-terror work and save a few pennies there? I'm sure the numbers look nice.

Oh yes the numbers will look splendid. Just wait until the human rights guys get them.

That is the premise of my UN Resolution story, but with a twist that was envoked back in my Solution's Resolution story. In short The Human Rights guys do find out, and invade Italy. The SWA (along with the rest of the Italian Government) is being dismantled and put on hold. Meanwhile, Padania sees this as a chance to to their dirty work and try to split Italy. But Italian Pride is the only thing keeping the nation together. My OC and the splintered remains of the handlers must gather together and prove to The Human Rights guys that there was no rights being violated.

Added to this- the other 1st world nations with their own simillar cyborg programs are against the invasion, and are going to support Italy. Whether everyone succeeds or fails, remains to be seen.

MikhailN wrote:Oh yes the numbers will look splendid. Just wait until the human rights guys get them.

That is why the PM controls the media.

"Nothing to see here! Move along!"

Frankly, only one adult has proven himself in the series to not be scum: Hillshire.

Though I hope that there are more, this series doesn't exacly stand conducive thereto.

I guess Hilshire is a bit better than Jose since he didn't choose to work at the SWA.

Etta: No!! Jose is the nicest man in the world!

...I do like how Aida has portrayed the adults in his series... the only true 'nice guy' among them is on a path of self-destruction. Killers tend not to be nice people, though none want to think of themselves as evil. Each handler has his own way of coping with what he does. Well, except for Hillshire, the poor sap.

oh, and...

Are the bad guys bad?

yes. but not much more so than the 'good guys'.

Hillshire may have started out with the goal to help children, but he ended up using them, as well.

Kiskaloo wrote:Hillshire may have started out with the goal to help children, but he ended up using them, as well.

I don't know what you mean. Hilshire had to stay with his little girl or else she could have got stuck with a Lauro.
I wonder how Hilshire feels about his SWA ''friends'' that forced him into the job.

While Hillshire believes he would have been killed if he hadn't joined, I think he's over-dramatizing it.

He stayed because he felt guilty for getting Rachelle Belleut killed. Triela was his penance.

With few exceptions, I would think a majority of the SWA handlers are forced into that position. Hillshire is an obvious case. But I see Jose as one too.

After dealing with the death of their family, Jose wanted to mourn and go into a deep depression. Instead Jean shoves him into this job where he would be given a little girl to replace Enrica with.

Though Marco volunteered, he was forced to stay on to the end, and with Angie gone, he is given a vacation.

The three here are probably the closest of all the SWA handlers, for their simillarities to their situations and how they deal with it.

Since your more knowledgeable than me, i'll take your word for it Kisk.

And Jean was mad when he saw Etta dressed up like Enrica, so he obviously didn't like what Jose was doing with her. Maybe he wanted him to replace her, but not with a near clone.

Honestly, I don't think Jean cares all that much about Enrica. I believe that is why he hallucinated her ghost coming to chastise him for "forgetting her" when he was on vacation with Jose and the girls in Sicily.

It's his fiance Sophia Durante that he kills for.

I forget the movie where it was said, but the line is:

You dont die for Love, you kill for it.

Politics confuse me. Everyone should be good and nice to eachother, then everyone would be happy.

That usually degenerates into "everyone should be good and nice to each other the way I want you to be...or else!!!"

There will always be conflict; the question is whether it will be civilized or violent (or both?)?

All this is helping to develop prosthetics and help many others but
will start us on the debate of whether the ends justify the means.

...and making the people in control lots of money...

MadHatChemist wrote:There will always be conflict; the question is whether it will be civilized or violent (or both?)?

Plato said

Only the dead have seen the end of war

Much later, Jimmy Carter said

War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children

I found a suitable reply in this quote

Neither enemy faces, nor the mothers that love them, come to mind when one is thinking of nothing but endeavouring to survive. Philosophising about war is useless under fire.

quoted from Linda Berdoll, Mr. Darcy Takes A Wife, 2004

I know I'm ressurrecting a long dead thread, but some of the people at the SWA and their supporters seem as if not more evil than the Padania. First example, that politician that had the SWA assassinate a political rival. Then, there's Jean, who authorizes the murder of civilians, and he treats Rico in a manner that is simply child abuse.

Yeah, but they'll always have the "those guys started it first" excuse. But hey, if you want results, unilateralism is the way to go.

As long as we're throwing quotes around, here's another one:

"Every civilization finds it necessary to negotiate compromises with its own values."

SPARTAN 119 wrote:I know I'm ressurrecting a long dead thread...

Ah-ah-ah...?

SPARTAN 119 wrote:...some of the people at the SWA and their supporters seem as if not more evil than the Padania.

That’s the beauty of the series – nothing is clear cut, black and white.

Danjo3 wrote:

SPARTAN 119 wrote:...some of the people at the SWA and their supporters seem as if not more evil than the Padania.

That’s the beauty of the series – nothing is clear cut, black and white.

Exactly, generally if I'm not sure which side I'm supposed to be cheering for I'll take that as a good sign... good people fighting on the wrong side, if that makes sense... or arseholes fighting on the right side for that matter.

Another series full of that sort of thing is the Honor Harrington series of books. There were plenty of battles in that where I knew I was going to hate the outcome no-matter who won.

Nachtsider wrote:

SPARTAN 119 wrote:I know I'm ressurrecting a long dead thread...

Ah-ah-ah...?

He ain't rezzing the thread, he be defibrillating it.

Anyway,

Toma-kun wrote:As long as we're throwing quotes around, here's another one:

"Every civilization finds it necessary to negotiate compromises with its own values."

Of course. People would say, you're dealing with a bunch that breaks laws. Naturally you need to have an agency that's not bounded by laws to combat them on a level playing field and that's where guys like the police (Elfen's probably going to get me for this) or the SWA. However, they forget that if you deconstruct these law enforcement agencies they're breaking the very laws they set out to enforce (Dirty Harry and Gunslinger Girl both do this kind of deconstruction).

In the end, there is no "good guy" or "bad guy". If you strip away the noble notion that they're *enforcing the law* or *fighting terror* then all the girls are murderers, plain and simple. The difference is that society deems murders done by law enforcement agencies to be justified because these social institutions guard the interests of society as a whole, as opposed to Padania, IRA, PLO and other terrorist organizations. That's why in another society (Ireland for IRA and Palestine for the PLO) these "terrorist organizations" are celebrated and the other party (British Army etc etc) gets vilified.

hydra282 wrote:The North sounds like there being money hogs. Unless a ton of their earned money is being taken from them. They should at least a little money to help out the less fortunate.

That reminds me of a guy at school who bashed our school's ''Build a school in Ecuador'' program every chance he could. He said we should be using the money to help ourselves. He complains that our desks are broken, while the Ecuador don't even have desks

I would have given him a bottle of Elmer's Carpenter's Glue, a hammer and a few nails and tell him to get busy!

Kiskaloo wrote:While Hillshire believes he would have been killed if he hadn't joined, I think he's over-dramatizing it.

He stayed because he felt guilty for getting Rachelle Belleut killed. Triela was his penance.

A German EuroPol agent in an Italian Top Secret Agency discovering their secret cyborg program, and he's not killed? James Bond has been tied up and left to die for things less than this!