Re: Field Repairs on Cyborgs

by PolosElite23 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 12:30

Good idea, make everything look like things normally stored in a purse, one of those ridiculously big ones, and use the purse as a field medical bag, handy for those missions away from Italy or part of a undercover mission/when secrecy is needed.

by Il Direttore Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 12:34

There is a reason why Caterina has a messenger bag, and it is because messenger bags are fairly stylish for her age bracket, and she can store a huge amount of stuff in it.

by PolosElite23 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 12:38

Ya, a laptop bag and such are good ideas for storing stuff...maybe not Caterina as she has other things to stick in that, but for the other cyborgs a laptop bag isn't all that bad of a day. Where I live it isn't uncommon for people to have a laptop bag or backpack on them, and in Italy you could pick up a slight accent, American maybe?, and act as a tourist which would explain the bag.

by Il Direttore Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 12:49

Hey, fannie packs are the classic tourist thing, right? Do you realize you could probably store a hand grenade's worth of TNT in one of those?

But yeah, Caterina has her laptop, knife, gun, and various gadgetry, but that's about it. I'll have to fiddle around with the contents in a few.

Back on topic: For clotting agents, and running with the medical makeup idea, could we do a sort of clotting-agent-powder that you can dust/dump onto a wound? Also, the thing with diabetes- disguised autoinjectors can be used to dispense artificial platelets instead.

by Alfisti Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 16:00

PolosElite23 wrote:Pretty sure. What would be good would be some sort of self repair for the body? If not a complete repair but a way to have the cyborg patch themselves up to keep going and be repaired enough internally within the body to make it able keep functioning and retain some of that preaugmentation healing...a bit for a cybernetic body. Which would be helpful for being in a remote area or away from a SWA facility. Which also would be good for Monty...away from home some kind of healing can happen while away from help.

It would be nice, and I guess there are "self-healing" polymers out there... but I don't think anyone has managed to replicate the sort of healing a human body can do with artificial components.

...and, to be honest: from a story perspective it kind of takes the fun out. Razz

El Conservatore wrote:...and then nobody would be the wiser. Lip gloss, tooth paste, or hair product would also work.

Except two of three are not allowed to fly hand-luggage.

That said, having some of this gear disguised would not be a bad idea: and as El noted it would be easier to carry a clotting agent etc as a seperate item rather than integrate it into the platform: not to mention if you developed a better alternative you could just swap the item rather than having to somehow upgrade the platform.

In terms of a quick combat fix, I think the patches are probably the best answer; it's an instant seal and also could lend some level of structural support. You could also make them to look like regular bandages or bandaids.

El Conservatore wrote:Hey, fannie packs are the classic tourist thing, right?

*shudder* Only if you or your wife also have a blue rinse or no pride... fine for some, but maybe not for others.

Jokes aside, how this stuff could be carried really depends on who is doing the carrying and what they're wearing. Messenger bags are a good option for most teenagers in casual garb, however if you take how Monty dresses she could not resonably carry one.

For that matter: who is more likely to be carrying it? The cyborg or the handler? I would be willing to suggest it is more likely the handler would be carrying the medical supplies should the fratello in question have them, so a briefcase, laptop bag or small duffle would do quite well for him. Afterall, the cyborg is the muscle, the handler is the more likely to be the one picking up the pieces.

As to the diabetic thing: I imagine there are any number of things can be hidden in an insulin injector. I know a few have toyed with the idea that each handler carries an epipen of the conditioning drug in liquid form (so faster acting than pills) for use on a crashing cyborg or should a badly injured one need to be sedated/push through a mission.

by Il Direttore Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 16:17

Well, it seems to me that cyborgs and handlers would both be carrying supplies. Clotting Agent disguised as foundation would not be something the handler would carry, for example. Furthermore, it allows for the fratello to keep operating should the situation get a tad hairy. Say Henrietta takes a couple hits to upper torso. If only the handler is carrying the meds, she'd have to either finish the mission with gunshot wounds or wait for Giuse to back her up. Alternatively, she could just peel the cover off a strip of BorgTape and press it over the wound, then keep going without much hindrance. She has an instrument case, and it probably wouldn't be that difficult to fit a couple of precut BorgTape pieces in their with the ammo or something.

Granted, however, that different missions would force different loadouts, so I guess that the above would constitute an idealized arrangement.

by Awinnell Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 16:42

Woundseal powder

WoundSeal Powder is composed of a hydrophilic, or water-loving, polymer and potassium ferrate. When the powder is poured onto a bleeding wound, the hydrophilic polymer instantly dehydrates the blood by absorbing only the plasma or liquid portion of the blood stacking the blood solids beneath the powder.
Simultaneously the potassium ferrate dissolves, releasing iron that agglomerates (binds together) the blood solids to create an occlusive seal.
As manual pressure is applied to the powder, the seal is pushed into contact with the wound. The natural glue-like nature of drying blood adheres the seal to the wound and surrounding skin. The occlusive seal, that has formed in seconds, stops further bleeding or oozing. Blood solids continue to stack beneath the seal, strengthening it. The natural clotting process proceeds below the seal.

not meant as and advert lol

by Alfisti Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 17:15

El Conservatore wrote:Well, it seems to me that cyborgs and handlers would both be carrying supplies. Clotting Agent disguised as foundation would not be something the handler would carry, for example. Furthermore, it allows for the fratello to keep operating should the situation get a tad hairy. Say Henrietta takes a couple hits to upper torso. If only the handler is carrying the meds, she'd have to either finish the mission with gunshot wounds or wait for Giuse to back her up. Alternatively, she could just peel the cover off a strip of BorgTape and press it over the wound, then keep going without much hindrance. She has an instrument case, and it probably wouldn't be that difficult to fit a couple of precut BorgTape pieces in their with the ammo or something.

No arguments there, but she's not going to be lugging the full medical kit with her on a house raid or similar: maybe just a few strips in a pocket or, as you said, in her instrument case. The bulk of any first-aid equipment is more likely to be left with the handler, so unless said handler is willing to stand around quite litterally holding his girl's handbag any disguising of it would be better geared toward his cover than hers.

by Il Direttore Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 17:58

Alfisti wrote:
El Conservatore wrote:Well, it seems to me that cyborgs and handlers would both be carrying supplies. Clotting Agent disguised as foundation would not be something the handler would carry, for example. Furthermore, it allows for the fratello to keep operating should the situation get a tad hairy. Say Henrietta takes a couple hits to upper torso. If only the handler is carrying the meds, she'd have to either finish the mission with gunshot wounds or wait for Giuse to back her up. Alternatively, she could just peel the cover off a strip of BorgTape and press it over the wound, then keep going without much hindrance. She has an instrument case, and it probably wouldn't be that difficult to fit a couple of precut BorgTape pieces in their with the ammo or something.

No arguments there, but she's not going to be lugging the full medical kit with her on a house raid or similar: maybe just a few strips in a pocket or, as you said, in her instrument case. The bulk of any first-aid equipment is more likely to be left with the handler, so unless said handler is willing to stand around quite litterally holding his girl's handbag any disguising of it would be better geared toward his cover than hers.

Hmm, I see you point, and once again we also return to the fact that the mission will dictate what the fratello has room to carry.

----

Awinnell wrote:

Woundseal powder

WoundSeal Powder is
composed of a hydrophilic, or water-loving, polymer and potassium
ferrate. When the powder is poured onto bleeding
wound, the hydrophilic polymer instantly dehydrates the blood by
absorbing only the plasma or liquid portion of the blood stacking the
blood solids beneath the powder. Simultaneously the potassium ferrate
dissolves, releasing iron that agglomerates (binds together) the blood
solids to create an occlusive seal.

As manual pressure is applied to
the powder, the seal is pushed into contact with the wound. The natural
glue-like nature of drying blood adheres the seal to the wound and
surrounding skin. The occlusive seal, that has formed in seconds, stops
further bleeding or oozing. Blood solids continue to stack beneath the
seal, strengthening it. The natural clotting process proceeds below the
seal.
not meant as and advert lol

Ah technology!

by PolosElite23 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:02

Awinnell wrote:Woundseal powder
WoundSeal Powder is composed of a hydrophilic, or water-loving, polymer and potassium ferrate. When the powder is poured onto a bleeding wound, the hydrophilic polymer instantly dehydrates the blood by absorbing only the plasma or liquid portion of the blood stacking the blood solids beneath the powder.
Simultaneously the potassium ferrate dissolves, releasing iron that agglomerates (binds together) the blood solids to create an occlusive seal.
As manual pressure is applied to the powder, the seal is pushed into contact with the wound. The natural glue-like nature of drying blood adheres the seal to the wound and surrounding skin. The occlusive seal, that has formed in seconds, stops further bleeding or oozing. Blood solids continue to stack beneath the seal, strengthening it. The natural clotting process proceeds below the seal.
not meant as and advert lol

Interesting...you could have a few little packets of this type of stuff to look like, say, a sugar packet or maybe even a bottle of talcum powder or something like that for Jethro and Monty who are operating outside Italy.

Alfisti wrote: No arguments there, but she's not going to be lugging the full medical kit with her on a house raid or similar: maybe just a few strips in a pocket or, as you said, in her instrument case. The bulk of any first-aid equipment is more likely to be left with the handler, so unless said handler is willing to stand around quite litterally holding his girl's handbag any disguising of it would be better geared toward his cover than hers.

The handler probably would keep most of the med supplies. The instrument case makes sense though. there are usually compartments within the case that are usually hidden, in some I've seen anyway. So, putting some medical supplies would be a good idea. Also if the fratello is deploying from a vehicle, it would make sense to have your med kit in the trunk or under the seat.

And how well are they trained medically? I've read Triela pulled a bullet out of Hillshire and treated him. It was discussed that they would have basic first aid training, elsewhere on the forum with what i just mentioned it was speculated that maybe they have a more advanced first aid training. I'm kind of inclined that it would be good practice to put them all, handlers and cyborgs, through some basic EMT courses or their equivilant at the least, just so if a medical emergency presents itself either could take action. Thoughts?

by Il Direttore Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:05

Well, every soldier is trained in first aid so that s/he can stabilize his/her buddies before the medics get there, right? Seems like it'd be the same principle here. Especially considering that Rico managed to lug Jean to jeep/Land Rover in the Power Station Arc after he took a 20mm to the gut.

by PolosElite23 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:28

Aye, but being able to apply some field medicine in a situation is good. Something along the lines of a medic's training would be ideal. By no means should they be like a PJ but they should have an adequate medical training. Especially if they guard a VIP. The VIP may need medical attention, it would be good that the cyborg guarding them knows how to stabilize the VIP and keep him alive till paramedics or other help arrives.

by Il Direttore Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:33

PolosElite23 wrote:Aye, but being able to apply some field medicine in a situation is good. Something along the lines of a medic's training would be ideal. By no means should they be like a PJ but they should have an adequate medical training. Especially if they guard a VIP. The VIP may need medical attention, it would be good that the cyborg guarding them knows how to stabilize the VIP and keep him alive till paramedics or other help arrives.

Yeah, but if that's the case, it seems like you'd just have a Medic as part of your Party. So you have two fratelli and a pair of medics in your main squad, then have full medical staff ready to go at the nearest facility, with rings of sniper and other security around the core squad.

by PolosElite23 Sun 9 Jun 2013 - 18:38

El Conservatore wrote:
PolosElite23 wrote:Aye, but being able to apply some field medicine in a situation is good. Something along the lines of a medic's training would be ideal. By no means should they be like a PJ but they should have an adequate medical training. Especially if they guard a VIP. The VIP may need medical attention, it would be good that the cyborg guarding them knows how to stabilize the VIP and keep him alive till paramedics or other help arrives.

Yeah, but if that's the case, it seems like you'd just have a Medic as part of your Party. So you have two fratelli and a pair of medics in your main squad, then have full medical staff ready to go at the nearest facility, with rings of sniper and other security around the core squad.

That would make sense.

by John_234 Thu 13 Jun 2013 - 17:17

Oh, yay, hemostatic agents.

QuikClot, Celox, and the above stuff is quite interesting, but I think the basic use of it is being misunderstood here. It's a supplemental tool used when conventional techniques fail. When pressure, elevation and wound dressing fail, you call hemostatic agents into play. QuikClot combat gauze for example, requires all other wound dressings removed so it can be carefully shoved into the wound canal to fill it up entirely.

A lot of these agents suffer from side effects - the first QuikClot caused burns and was prone to infection, for example. So yeah, they're kinda like, backup backup agents. They're included in stuff like "blowout kits" carried for individual use because they're marginally easier to apply.

On the whole, I don't think the principals of medical care in intelligence work change much for cyborgs. If someone gets shot / stabbed and has to be fixed up, something has already gone very very wrong. So while the contingencies are there to keep people alive, the mission isn't planned with the assumption people will need to be patched up.

In the battlefield, I think something like 90% of preventable casualties are from extremities and bleeding out. Since, your either armor stops vital hits or you die, generally speaking. With cyborgs that changes a little bit, but principally, most wound care in the field is stopping people from bleeding out.

by Il Direttore Thu 13 Jun 2013 - 18:13

John_234 wrote:Oh, yay, hemostatic agents.

QuikClot, Celox, and the above stuff is quite interesting, but I think the basic use of it is being misunderstood here. It's a supplemental tool used when conventional techniques fail. When pressure, elevation and wound dressing fail, you call hemostatic agents into play. QuikClot combat gauze for example, requires all other wound dressings removed so it can be carefully shoved into the wound canal to fill it up entirely.

A lot of these agents suffer from side effects - the first QuikClot caused burns and was prone to infection, for example. So yeah, they're kinda like, backup backup agents. They're included in stuff like "blowout kits" carried for individual use because they're marginally easier to apply.

On the whole, I don't think the principals of medical care in intelligence work change much for cyborgs. If someone gets shot / stabbed and has to be fixed up, something has already gone very very wrong. So while the contingencies are there to keep people alive, the mission isn't planned with the assumption people will need to be patched up.

In the battlefield, I think something like 90% of preventable casualties are from extremities and bleeding out. Since, your either armor stops vital hits or you die, generally speaking. With cyborgs that changes a little bit, but principally, most wound care in the field is stopping people from bleeding out.

To clarify, are you saying that if a cyborg's basic subdermal armor has been breeched, you're looking at a lot more than just a bandage and that stabilizing the unit is your priority, followed by withdrawing immediately because shit has already gone completely to hell?

by John_234 Fri 14 Jun 2013 - 12:47

El Conservatore wrote:
John_234 wrote:Oh, yay, hemostatic agents.

QuikClot, Celox, and the above stuff is quite interesting, but I think the basic use of it is being misunderstood here. It's a supplemental tool used when conventional techniques fail. When pressure, elevation and wound dressing fail, you call hemostatic agents into play. QuikClot combat gauze for example, requires all other wound dressings removed so it can be carefully shoved into the wound canal to fill it up entirely.

A lot of these agents suffer from side effects - the first QuikClot caused burns and was prone to infection, for example. So yeah, they're kinda like, backup backup agents. They're included in stuff like "blowout kits" carried for individual use because they're marginally easier to apply.

On the whole, I don't think the principals of medical care in intelligence work change much for cyborgs. If someone gets shot / stabbed and has to be fixed up, something has already gone very very wrong. So while the contingencies are there to keep people alive, the mission isn't planned with the assumption people will need to be patched up.

In the battlefield, I think something like 90% of preventable casualties are from extremities and bleeding out. Since, your either armor stops vital hits or you die, generally speaking. With cyborgs that changes a little bit, but principally, most wound care in the field is stopping people from bleeding out.

To clarify, are you saying that if a cyborg's basic subdermal armor has been breeched, you're looking at a lot more than just a bandage and that stabilizing the unit is your priority, followed by withdrawing immediately because shit has already gone completely to hell?

Flesh and bone humans that get shot don't just get bandaged and everything is good. You have to make sure no arteries are severed, bones broken, prevent shock, and if the wound is bad enough keep the patient stationary until more advanced medical support arrives.

In a gunfight or other direct action setting, you generally want to put down that guy who is firing at you so it's safe to treat wounded. You can also do little things like carrying extra medical supplies, having designated medics and on-site helicopters / ambulances too.

But IMO, in a pure intelligence setting where you'd only ever shoot in self defense, any major wound is a game-changer. Cyborg or human.

by **ElfenMagix** Fri 14 Jun 2013 - 19:39

Like John_234 said, just because the bullet does not pass through you, it still has a shockwave that does and that causes more damage than the actual bullet. A ballistic shockwave going through you expands as it travels through the body, shattering cell tissue into useless liquified mush. This causes internal hemorrhaging which will kill the cyborg, depending on where it is hit. If its an arm or a leg, amputation is the answer, anyplace else is fatal or near fatal. In short, that cyborg is not getting up. Even if its bullet proof armoring stopped the bullet, the shockwave still goes through but the cyborg will be alive long enough for a medical team to save it.

by PolosElite23 Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:01

After thinking about it for a bit it may make sense for a cyborg to have something along the lines of "self sealing skin"

My reason is that back in ok' ww2 planes would be fitted with self sealing fuel tanks. So when the outer shell of the plane was damaged and a round went into the fuel tank, you weren't leaking fuel all over in the middle of a flight.

Similar consept with the cyborgs. A minor wound, say when Triela takes those rounds saving Mario from the Mafi thugs. She bled for a bit before it stopped quickly. A self sealing skin would be helpful for those pesky bullet holes, as the self sealing would be helpful in minimalizing blood loss. It also seems feesible with the tech the SWA has and the rather old tech of the self sealing tanks. Converting it over should be feesible. I think.

Thoughts?

by Il Direttore Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:04

Ah, here's the rub:

Self sealing tanks were designed with a very specific type of rubber and other laminates, such that the bullet would split the rubber but the rubber could elastically return to its original position and prevent leakage. Modern self-sealers have a layer of expanding foam that forms a seal. How are you going to get that under the epidermis of a human body?

by PolosElite23 Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:13

Build it into the skin.

The skin is synthetic, correct? So you give it properties that allow it to work along those two ways of self sealing. Working that into the composition of the epidermis, or dermis. It may also be possible to stick it underneath the skin.

by Il Direttore Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:17

Well, good luck on that.

It's kinda freakishly difficult to do things on a nano and micro level. You'd have to figure out how to make an artificial material recognize that there was damage, then make it repair. All while maintaining the exact texture and color of human skin.

It seems to me that it'd be easier just to give them a crazy clotting factor and little patches of skin to paste on.

by PolosElite23 Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:22

My ideas are getting to complex again aren't they?

*sigh* unless it just acts elasticy and snaps to seal it it probably wouldn't be worth the effort of designing. Otherwise the whole clotting agent and Borgtape will do.

by Il Direttore Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:24

I would do a laminate/composite then. You may need to pass a bit on the strength/speed factors to boost armor though.

by PolosElite23 Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:29

I'm just saying for like taking a pistol round like a 9mm or something that this would be good for a quick fix to get things looking more normal. Also would be helpful in the case of getting a small cut or the like.

by Il Direttore Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:30

Still do a laminate or a composite, though your right that it'd be less problematic at those levels. Not sure what though.. and would you put an aesthetic layer over top everything then?

by **Kiskaloo** Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:37

We have materials now that return to their original shape after being deformed. I see no reason why a cyborg's skin could not be one.

by PolosElite23 Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 1:38

I was was thinking along the lines that the pulling of the skin underneath would pull the dermis flush with each other. Dab away the blood and I'd look "normal" to someone looking at it, although close examination may be a problem, however it be weird to see a person approach a little girl and take a close look at a suspicious looking mark on their arm or leg.

by John_234 Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 3:41

Problem is, materials that return their previous state also generally have a pretty rigid form to return to, or in the case of foam, a defined area to fill.That's not especially suited to use in a human body, where everything is in constant motion.

I really think the agility of the cyborgs plus their capacity to train so hard is their biggest asset. You can only armor up so much.

by **Nachtsider** Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 6:12

Self-sealing skin? Not practical. Self-sealing blood vessels and internal organs are the way to go.

by PolosElite23 Mon 4 Nov 2013 - 17:21

Found this in Wal-Mart. Figured it be a good add here. ^^

Field Repairs on Cyborgs - Page 2 52Nli8Q

Field Repairs on Cyborgs - Page 2 ONqdkFj

by John_234 Tue 5 Nov 2013 - 6:51

Heh, it's good to note most professionals don't advise use of hemostatic agents on minor wounds like the packaging shows. They're intended to be used when methods like direct pressure fail.

by Il Direttore Tue 5 Nov 2013 - 10:51

Like gunshot wounds of large magnitude, for example?

by John_234 Tue 5 Nov 2013 - 13:43

Well, no. Think more severity of wound. GSW, bleeding, you use a dressing and direct pressure, the wound is handled until paramedics arrive. No Celox necessary.

Or, GSW, blood gushing, overflows three or four dressings, you may apply a tourniquet and a Celox packet. It's escalation, basically.

Because hemostatic agents burn and do other things that aren't ideal.

by PolosElite23 Tue 5 Nov 2013 - 17:11

Just felt like tossing it in here, since we talked about it. Smile

by tremec6speed Tue 5 Nov 2013 - 21:04

Reading the hazards of Bondo is a heads up for me, as I work with that at my job and have sometimes neglected to use a filter and gloves.

No more, thanks for the info.
In general, I would think that the SWA might offer 'stations' (for lack of a better term) to those fratellos that might go for a protracted period of time and whose general field of operations might be known in advance or reported as the team(s) continue on their mission. Of course, this is a best case scenario, as teams like J&M might be on the move so often and go in unpredictable directions as they face snap judgement decisions that making these stations readily available will be difficult to put it mildly. In fact, they may actually prove dangerous to a mission since a group of additional agents could inadvertently blow the cover of a fratello that is deep undercover and very vulnerable if discovered. In general however, if there is a clear direction where the fratellos are known to be at or will be going, then way point stations might be just the thing not only for repairing damage, but for any additional help they may need: more info on the enemy, material help, etc. Finally, as for my own fratello Gunther and Ayden, since the cydroid is a one-off experiment that heals faster and in places where humans cannot, considerations of how to deal with sustained damage problems are practically a non issue. sweat

by **ElfenMagix** Tue 5 Nov 2013 - 21:08

And unless you go deep into the wound, QuikClot and Celox will not work on stab or gunshot wounds to the torso.

People think that when you're bleeding, blood is leaving your body. But there is a problem of internal bleeding and in the torso there are spaces in the body for organs to move around and about, lovely for blood to pool into in internal bleeding. If you do not get the source or sources of internal bleeding, though the blood flow to the outside world may have stopped, bleeding inside the body has not.

by PolosElite23 Tue 5 Nov 2013 - 23:59

ElfenMagix wrote:And unless you go deep into the wound, QuikClot and Celox will not work on stab or gunshot wounds to the torso.

People think that when you're bleeding, blood is leaving your body. But there is a problem of internal bleeding and in the torso there are spaces in the body for organs to move around and about, lovely for blood to pool into in internal bleeding. If you do not get the source or sources of internal bleeding, though the blood flow to the outside world may have stopped, bleeding inside the body has not.

Right. A surface wound is one thing. A hit to the torso isn't good. If it nicks an artery someone may have to stick their hand in there to pinch it shut. Celox and such is good for a limb, but near impractical for the torso.

I that with internal bleeding if it is in the chest cavity, you have the problems of lungs collapsing due to internal bleeding, you have the possibility of dying from blood filling the lungs. Celox isn't going to help there, someone is going to need to take some medical action fast. You can die quickly if a major blood vessel is cut. Celox isn't the answer to everything, but it is a good immediate option when all else fails to stop bleeding on a limb.

And could you just imagine a handler having to pinch of an artery in his cyborg?

by Il Direttore Wed 6 Nov 2013 - 0:39

Well, Taerkitty, since you're into the whole "cause massive mental and emotional trauma" thing, I think we have a prompt for one of your future sets for Paolo and Dina.

by taerKitty Wed 6 Nov 2013 - 2:19

Oh, that works for me.

by John_234 Wed 6 Nov 2013 - 5:40

PolosElite23 wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:And unless you go deep into the wound, QuikClot and Celox will not work on stab or gunshot wounds to the torso.

People think that when you're bleeding, blood is leaving your body. But there is a problem of internal bleeding and in the torso there are spaces in the body for organs to move around and about, lovely for blood to pool into in internal bleeding. If you do not get the source or sources of internal bleeding, though the blood flow to the outside world may have stopped, bleeding inside the body has not.
Right. A surface wound is one thing. A hit to the torso isn't good. If it nicks an artery someone may have to stick their hand in there to pinch it shut. Celox and such is good for a limb, but near impractical for the torso.

I that with internal bleeding if it is in the chest cavity, you have the problems of lungs collapsing due to internal bleeding, you have the possibility of dying from blood filling the lungs. Celox isn't going to help there, someone is going to need to take some medical action fast. You can die quickly if a major blood vessel is cut. Celox isn't the answer to everything, but it is a good immediate option when all else fails to stop bleeding on a limb.

And could you just imagine a handler having to pinch of an artery in his cyborg?

Well, for that application QuikClot makes a combat dressing which you stuff into deep wounds, rather than just pour onto topically. Not sure how well it works but it's gained fairly wide acceptance in 'blowout kits.'

by PolosElite23 Wed 6 Nov 2013 - 8:38

John_234 wrote:
PolosElite23 wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:And unless you go deep into the wound, QuikClot and Celox will not work on stab or gunshot wounds to the torso.

People think that when you're bleeding, blood is leaving your body. But there is a problem of internal bleeding and in the torso there are spaces in the body for organs to move around and about, lovely for blood to pool into in internal bleeding. If you do not get the source or sources of internal bleeding, though the blood flow to the outside world may have stopped, bleeding inside the body has not.
Right. A surface wound is one thing. A hit to the torso isn't good. If it nicks an artery someone may have to stick their hand in there to pinch it shut. Celox and such is good for a limb, but near impractical for the torso.

I that with internal bleeding if it is in the chest cavity, you have the problems of lungs collapsing due to internal bleeding, you have the possibility of dying from blood filling the lungs. Celox isn't going to help there, someone is going to need to take some medical action fast. You can die quickly if a major blood vessel is cut. Celox isn't the answer to everything, but it is a good immediate option when all else fails to stop bleeding on a limb.

And could you just imagine a handler having to pinch of an artery in his cyborg?
Well, for that application QuikClot makes a combat dressing which you stuff into deep wounds, rather than just pour onto topically. Not sure how well it works but it's gained fairly wide acceptance in 'blowout kits.'

Even if you can do that, The event of a severed artery is going to require someone to pinch off the artery until they can get that cyborg to the SWA's medical facilities to avoid bleeding out. Depending on the artery they could bleed out in seconds.

by John_234 Thu 7 Nov 2013 - 10:15

PolosElite23 wrote:
John_234 wrote:
PolosElite23 wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:And unless you go deep into the wound, QuikClot and Celox will not work on stab or gunshot wounds to the torso.

People think that when you're bleeding, blood is leaving your body. But there is a problem of internal bleeding and in the torso there are spaces in the body for organs to move around and about, lovely for blood to pool into in internal bleeding. If you do not get the source or sources of internal bleeding, though the blood flow to the outside world may have stopped, bleeding inside the body has not.
Right. A surface wound is one thing. A hit to the torso isn't good. If it nicks an artery someone may have to stick their hand in there to pinch it shut. Celox and such is good for a limb, but near impractical for the torso.

I that with internal bleeding if it is in the chest cavity, you have the problems of lungs collapsing due to internal bleeding, you have the possibility of dying from blood filling the lungs. Celox isn't going to help there, someone is going to need to take some medical action fast. You can die quickly if a major blood vessel is cut. Celox isn't the answer to everything, but it is a good immediate option when all else fails to stop bleeding on a limb.

And could you just imagine a handler having to pinch of an artery in his cyborg?
Well, for that application QuikClot makes a combat dressing which you stuff into deep wounds, rather than just pour onto topically. Not sure how well it works but it's gained fairly wide acceptance in 'blowout kits.'
Even if you can do that, The event of a severed artery is going to require someone to pinch off the artery until they can get that cyborg to the SWA's medical facilities to avoid bleeding out. Depending on the artery they could bleed out in seconds.

That's more in the realm of field surgery. Like you could have to grab an artery and clamp it with hemostats, but you'd probably be a medic, who would have more advanced products than QuikClot / Arglaes / Celox. QuikClot and other hemostatic agents are designed for use by persons with limited training and resources, or self-application, which is a specific advantage of a hemostatic agent.

You can stuff QuikClot into a trunk wound, you can apply occlusive dressings for sucking chest wounds, but the fundamental purpose of 'blowout kits' is to sustain a person until advanced medical care can arrive. They're designed for the well-known fact that most preventable battlefield casualties come from extremity damage. Body armor protects the trunk in a reasonable manner, statistically.

Hemostatic agents are a stage of escalation in individual wound care, not a solution in of themselves.

by PolosElite23 Thu 7 Nov 2013 - 14:49

John_234 wrote:
PolosElite23 wrote:
John_234 wrote:
PolosElite23 wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:And unless you go deep into the wound, QuikClot and Celox will not work on stab or gunshot wounds to the torso.

People think that when you're bleeding, blood is leaving your body. But there is a problem of internal bleeding and in the torso there are spaces in the body for organs to move around and about, lovely for blood to pool into in internal bleeding. If you do not get the source or sources of internal bleeding, though the blood flow to the outside world may have stopped, bleeding inside the body has not.
Right. A surface wound is one thing. A hit to the torso isn't good. If it nicks an artery someone may have to stick their hand in there to pinch it shut. Celox and such is good for a limb, but near impractical for the torso.

I that with internal bleeding if it is in the chest cavity, you have the problems of lungs collapsing due to internal bleeding, you have the possibility of dying from blood filling the lungs. Celox isn't going to help there, someone is going to need to take some medical action fast. You can die quickly if a major blood vessel is cut. Celox isn't the answer to everything, but it is a good immediate option when all else fails to stop bleeding on a limb.

And could you just imagine a handler having to pinch of an artery in his cyborg?
Well, for that application QuikClot makes a combat dressing which you stuff into deep wounds, rather than just pour onto topically. Not sure how well it works but it's gained fairly wide acceptance in 'blowout kits.'
Even if you can do that, The event of a severed artery is going to require someone to pinch off the artery until they can get that cyborg to the SWA's medical facilities to avoid bleeding out. Depending on the artery they could bleed out in seconds.
That's more in the realm of field surgery. Like you could have to grab an artery and clamp it with hemostats, but you'd probably be a medic, who would have more advanced products than QuikClot / Arglaes / Celox. QuikClot and other hemostatic agents are designed for use by persons with limited training and resources, or self-application, which is a specific advantage of a hemostatic agent.

You can stuff QuikClot into a trunk wound, you can apply occlusive dressings for sucking chest wounds, but the fundamental purpose of 'blowout kits' is to sustain a person until advanced medical care can arrive. They're designed for the well-known fact that most preventable battlefield casualties come from extremity damage. Body armor protects the trunk in a reasonable manner, statistically.

Hemostatic agents are a stage of escalation in individual wound care, not a solution in of themselves.

Its something less of in the realm of field surgery. Its an actual First Aid tactic. You squeeze pressure points on limbs to stop or slow the blood flow. Medics would physically reach their hand in someone to pinch off an artery or vein in a last resort. Hemostatic agents are a desperate measure, when, as you have said, all other options and conventional medical care have failed. Same goes for sticking your hand in someone to stop the bleeding. A tourniquet is another last resort method, if its applied too long or incorrectly you may have to say bye-bye to a limb.

And just to add, the girls don't tend to wear body armor. Seen with Triela, when she took rounds into the torso from Pino while he had her P230sl, their armor seems to slow, but not stop the round as it enters. It still goes in, how deep would be up to what round and where it hit, but I digress.

by John_234 Thu 7 Nov 2013 - 20:19

PolosElite23 wrote:Its something less of in the realm of field surgery. Its an actual First Aid tactic. You squeeze pressure points on limbs to stop or slow the blood flow. Medics would physically reach their hand in someone to pinch off an artery or vein in a last resort. Hemostatic agents are a desperate measure, when, as you have said, all other options and conventional medical care have failed. Same goes for sticking your hand in someone to stop the bleeding. A tourniquet is another last resort method, if its applied too long or incorrectly you may have to say bye-bye to a limb.

And just to add, the girls don't tend to wear body armor. Seen with Triela, when she took rounds into the torso from Pino while he had her P230sl, their armor seems to slow, but not stop the round as it enters. It still goes in, how deep would be up to what round and where it hit, but I digress.

Pressure points / tourniquets = First Aid.

Clamping arteries physically = Field Surgery.

For a sense of scale, an EMT cannot do anything invasive to a human body. You need to be an EMT 3 / Paramedic to even intubate. I'm not sure how they'd handle something like that, because my father (an M.D.) has only seen artery clamping in the actual operating theater.

It's not a matter of desperate or not, it's just 99% of first responders don't have the training or equipment to clamp an artery. If it does happen, it's not because that's standard procedure.

And yes, body armor is probably too bulky to be worn all the time... though ironically, Triela would probably get away with it because of how she dresses.

by PolosElite23 Thu 7 Nov 2013 - 21:31

John_234 wrote:
PolosElite23 wrote:Its something less of in the realm of field surgery. Its an actual First Aid tactic. You squeeze pressure points on limbs to stop or slow the blood flow. Medics would physically reach their hand in someone to pinch off an artery or vein in a last resort. Hemostatic agents are a desperate measure, when, as you have said, all other options and conventional medical care have failed. Same goes for sticking your hand in someone to stop the bleeding. A tourniquet is another last resort method, if its applied too long or incorrectly you may have to say bye-bye to a limb.

And just to add, the girls don't tend to wear body armor. Seen with Triela, when she took rounds into the torso from Pino while he had her P230sl, their armor seems to slow, but not stop the round as it enters. It still goes in, how deep would be up to what round and where it hit, but I digress.
Pressure points / tourniquets = First Aid.

Clamping arteries physically = Field Surgery.

For a sense of scale, an EMT cannot do anything invasive to a human body. You need to be an EMT 3 / Paramedic to even intubate. I'm not sure how they'd handle something like that, because my father (an M.D.) has only seen artery clamping in the actual operating theater.

It's not a matter of desperate or not, it's just 99% of first responders don't have the training or equipment to clamp an artery. If it does happen, it's not because that's standard procedure.

And yes, body armor is probably too bulky to be worn all the time... though ironically, Triela would probably get away with it because of how she dresses.

*nodnod* I understand what your saying, but it isn't completely out of the picture. Unlikely as it is. I'm stating it is just an option, not a very likely one, but an option none the less.

by John_234 Fri 8 Nov 2013 - 0:01

There's always options, but this thread is about the ones we train for, isn't it? lol

by PolosElite23 Fri 8 Nov 2013 - 0:34

John_234 wrote:There's always options, but this thread is about the ones we train for, isn't it? lol

Got me there! Razz

by PolosElite23 Wed 5 Feb 2014 - 23:33

Well...this was interesting. Apllicable for cybrogs methinks? directly from the Products thread.
Awinnell

While the U.S. Defense Department is taking bold steps to embrace the latest technology in nearly every operational specialty, it might be the simplicity of a kitchen sponge that saves hundreds of lives every year.

The new battlefield gadget is called X-STAT, and it uses a novel twist on simple science, offering a different way to treat deep gun shot wounds that have plagued military medics for years.

The sponges work fast: In just 15 seconds, they expand to fill the entire wound cavity, creating enough pressure to stop heavy bleeding, reports Popular Science. Keeping the technology simple is hugely important in the chaotic, pre-hospital environment. RevMedx designed the XSTAT to literally be plug-and-play.

The dime-sized expanding sponges – which are made from standard medical-grade sponges and covered with a haemostatic agent are injected into the wound with the plastic tube and immediately expand to stop the bleeding. And because the sponges cling to moist surfaces, they can’t be pushed back out of the body by gushing blood.

by Il Direttore Thu 6 Feb 2014 - 8:24

Possible humor aside, it seems like if you're dropping cyborgs into bacta tanks, then this would also be an excellent way to deliver a substrate for the materials that make up the musculature and skin to adhere to during treatment.

by **ElfenMagix** Sat 8 Feb 2014 - 15:42

PolosElite23 wrote:Well...this was interesting. Apllicable for cybrogs methinks? directly from the Products thread.
Awinnell
While the U.S. Defense Department is taking bold steps to embrace the latest technology in nearly every operational specialty, it might be the simplicity of a kitchen sponge that saves hundreds of lives every year.

The new battlefield gadget is called X-STAT, and it uses a novel twist on simple science, offering a different way to treat deep gun shot wounds that have plagued military medics for years.

The sponges work fast: In just 15 seconds, they expand to fill the entire wound cavity, creating enough pressure to stop heavy bleeding, reports Popular Science. Keeping the technology simple is hugely important in the chaotic, pre-hospital environment. RevMedx designed the XSTAT to literally be plug-and-play.

The dime-sized expanding sponges – which are made from standard medical-grade sponges and covered with a haemostatic agent are injected into the wound with the plastic tube and immediately expand to stop the bleeding. And because the sponges cling to moist surfaces, they can’t be pushed back out of the body by gushing blood.

No gunshot wound that big is going to leave a survivable victim. Look at the size of that think - about 1 to 2 inches thick you put into the 'hole'? No freaking way! You're taking 10 gauge shotgun slugs and anti-aircraft round sized holes in a person to make that think fit!

And no gunshot wound end up like that? Where's the bullet?

by **Kiskaloo** Sat 8 Feb 2014 - 15:53

ElfenMagix wrote:No gunshot wound that big is going to leave a survivable victim. Look at the size of that think - about 1 to 2 inches thick you put into the 'hole'? No freaking way! You're taking 10 gauge shotgun slugs and anti-aircraft round sized holes in a person to make that think fit!

And no gunshot wound end up like that? Where's the bullet?

I agree that a head shot or neck shot like that would very likely be fatal, but I've seen worse in combat (to extremities like the thigh) and the victim survived. *shrug*

by Awinnell Sat 8 Feb 2014 - 17:21

It does come in several sizes of syringe to fit the hole as needed

by PolosElite23 Wed 25 Jun 2014 - 21:17

So this is super cool. Its the SAM Junctional Tourniquet, designed to stop bleeding in areas usually not accessible to normal tourniquets. Its simple, has printed on instruction and can be applied in roughly 30 seconds (less for femoral bleeding, more for upper arm).

by Sponsored content